[QUOTE=silenus]
As for the “Cone of Death” some people think a shotgun gives you,
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It’s the hit it gives you, is it not? I shot myself with a .32 ACP when I was a kid, and the only thing that hurt was the stitches. I could empty the clip into the bad guy, and he could beat me to death with a chair while he bled to death.
One of the local papers today said he used No. 4 shot. He fired three times and hit 8 people. The first shot was apparently fired into the crowd from behind, hitting random people, then 2 died from close range shots.
Yep. Getting a torso hit from a 12 gauge loaded with 00 buckshot can ruin your whole day. That’s like getting hit with 8 .32 cal bullets, all at the same time, and within 2 inches of each other. Massive trauma and failure of any organ that happened to be in the way. Pretty much the same from any shot at that distance. That’s why my shotgun has a #4 buckshot round loaded first. Then 00 buck, then a saboted slug, in case I want to kill their car. 
[QUOTE=silenus]
That’s why my shotgun has a #4 buckshot round loaded first. Then 00 buck, then a saboted slug, in case I want to kill their car. 
[/QUOTE]
A home defense book I read ages ago recommended a no-choke, short barreled pump shotgun with 7½ shot for the first round or two, followed by the heavier rounds in case of escalation. The reasoning was the birdshot will do nicely at in-house ranges, say seven yards, yet not penetrate walls so much.
[QUOTE=carnivorousplant]
I had heard that here in the “Duck Capitol of the World” :rolleyes: is was ducks eating lead shot.
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Many birds will eat gravel etc. to fill their gizzards with nice food-grinding stuff. If they eat lead shot they may die from lead poisoning. I believe this is a huge problem with fishing weights, presumably it is also an issue with shotguns.
e.g. from here
[QUOTE=silenus]
As for the “Cone of Death” some people think a shotgun gives you, let it just be noted that as far as home defense distances go, you can regard the shotgun as being a rifle. In less than 10 feet, the shot is going to spread not at all. “Point in the general direction” is not an option. ID your target, aim for center of mass, and put it down.
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not a ‘cone of death’ but considerably larger area of impact at ranges of 5-10 feet than the size of the barrel. As stated above, somewhere between cup and saucer-size cone at that range. Doesn’t mean you don’t have to aim, just that you’ve got more wiggle room than a rifle barrel or a slug, which is exactly the size of the barrel it’s fired from.
[QUOTE=ExTank]
Don’t underestimate the penetration of buckshot at short range; I’ve unloaded 00 at thin steel plate (~<1/16") at about 7 yards and had a few penetrations.
If you’re expecting some drywall and sheet wood to stop buckshot, your neighbor’s in for a rude surprise.
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Yes, buckshot would penetrate an average civilian internal wall fairly nicely, but nearly any birdshot would not, which was kinda my point. You load slugs or buck for home defense in an urban area, you’re gonna more likely get some collateral damage. #4 like Senior Whackjob in the church in Tennessee and it’s quite a bit less likely.
[QUOTE=silenus]
That’s why my shotgun has a #4 buckshot round loaded first. Then 00 buck, then a saboted slug, in case I want to kill their car.
[/QUOTE]
Just an FYI, a saboted slug is basically worthless without a rifled barrel. Without rifling on either the slug or the barrel, there isn’t an stability, and the slug will almost always start tumbling end over end. At that point, it’s basically a knuckle ball and you never know which way its gonna go. Accuracy at that point is basically luck.
And on the other hand, a rifled barrel is worthless for shot. So you might want to try just a regular old brenneke type slug rather than the saboted one.
Obligatory Box O’ Truth links;
The Box O’ Truth #3 - The Shotgun Meets the Box O’ Truth
The Box O’ Truth #14 - Rifles, Shotguns, and Walls
The Box O’ Truth #20 - Buckshot Patterns
The Box O’ Truth #33 - Rock Salt in a Shotgun
The Box O’ Truth #35 - A Load of Dimes Vs. The Box O’ Truth
The Box O’ Truth #42 - Precision Shooting With Buckshot
CMC +fnord!
[QUOTE=Sinaijon]
Just an FYI, a saboted slug is basically worthless without a rifled barrel. Without rifling on either the slug or the barrel, there isn’t an stability, and the slug will almost always start tumbling end over end. At that point, it’s basically a knuckle ball and you never know which way its gonna go. Accuracy at that point is basically luck.
And on the other hand, a rifled barrel is worthless for shot. So you might want to try just a regular old brenneke type slug rather than the saboted one.
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105/120mm smoothbore cannons on the M1 Abrams uses a fin-stabilized sabot for just this reason. The sabot puts a HUGE amount of velocity into the smaller-than-bore round, but velocity is useless if it’s horribly inaccurate as you pointed out. I think some shotgun flechettes, as well as some sabots, have tiny metal fins to help with this… but I can’t imagine they’re cheap or easy to get as I can’t imagine any civilian usage…
[QUOTE=crowmanyclouds]
Obligatory Box O’ Truth links;
The Box O’ Truth #3 - The Shotgun Meets the Box O’ Truth
The Box O’ Truth #14 - Rifles, Shotguns, and Walls
The Box O’ Truth #20 - Buckshot Patterns
The Box O’ Truth #33 - Rock Salt in a Shotgun
The Box O’ Truth #35 - A Load of Dimes Vs. The Box O’ Truth
The Box O’ Truth #42 - Precision Shooting With Buckshot
CMC +fnord!
[/QUOTE]
Those are wicked cool. I used to target shoot my hunting rifle in MT with milk jugs half filled with ice, just for the ‘kaboom!’ effect due to hydrostatic shock.
And it does prove my point - 5-10yards out, a shotgun is a good home defense weapon, unlikely to kill innocent bystanders next door, but very likely to make mince meat of the intruder and a bit easier to aim than a rifle or pistol…
Brilliant quote:
[QUOTE=http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1_2.htm]
Lessons learned:
Sheetrock (drywall) doesn’t slow any round down much. If you shoot in the house, walls will not stop any serious round.
Twelve pine boards will not stop a .223 round.
Shooting stuff is fun.
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[QUOTE=GomiBoy]
105/120mm smoothbore cannons on the M1 Abrams uses a fin-stabilized sabot for just this reason. The sabot puts a HUGE amount of velocity into the smaller-than-bore round, but velocity is useless if it’s horribly inaccurate as you pointed out. I think some shotgun flechettes, as well as some sabots, have tiny metal fins to help with this… but I can’t imagine they’re cheap or easy to get as I can’t imagine any civilian usage…
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[Pedantic Ass Mode:]
That’s called a “sub-caliber munition.”
[/Pedantic Ass Mode]
Well this is why we are here.
IMHO.
A short barrel shotgun is a good home defense weapon, but don’t count on it magically hitting the target.
I suspect it is a very good weapon for suppressive fire though at longer distances (perhaps 20-30 yards). Once the cone does spread a bit (doesn’t really happen in the distances typically needed for home defense) That could be very useful for suppressive fire.
Or if you know you have a lot of enemies crowded in one position.
WWI was one of the first common uses of a shotgun in warfare. The trench sweeper.
Back during the Anti-Vietnam War protests, we were taught to use #9 shot and fire at the street in front of the demonstrators to spread the pattern more effectively. That situation never actually occurred, as far as I know, so I’m happy to say I have no idea how effective it would be.
[QUOTE=enipla]
A short barrel shotgun is a good home defense weapon, but don’t count on it magically hitting the target.
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I thought of putting a short barrel, pistol grip and folding stock on the 12 gauge I bought at a pawn shop. It occurred to me should I actually have to shoot an intruder in my house, I’d much rather the cops found me with a duck gun than some sexy looking SWAT shotgun. 
Smart move. That’s why I’ve given a special name to my primary home defense weapon (S&W Model 28 .357). If I ever have the misfortune of having to cap some hostile miscreant, I want to be able to say, when being questioned by some lawyer, if I named my pistol (he’s hoping I named it “Killer” or something like that, so he can paint me out to a jury like a crazed gun nut), I can honestly answer “Fluffy.”
[QUOTE=ExTank]
[Pedantic Ass Mode:]
That’s called a “sub-caliber munition.”
[/Pedantic Ass Mode]
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Thanks for that. I thought smaller-than-bore would be more descriptive, though, for the non-military amongst us
I find the fact that the shooter chose #4 shot to be quite chilling. It may have been an accident, but according to some research I did on this subject some time ago, #4 shot is about optimal for doing a lot of damage in an interior setting. The pellets are large enough to carry enough energy to be lethal at most likely interior distances, and the pellet count in an ounce or an ounce and an eighth load is still high enough to put out a lot of shot, giving a pretty nice deadly pattern. If I hear that he was using a skeet gun with a super-improved cylinder choking – which causes the pattern to spread out quickly at comparatively short range – I would say that he planned this to do as much harm as possible.
[QUOTE=GomiBoy]
You’re right on about a shotgun being ideal for home defense. Higher caliber rifles, including the humble .22, have an ultimate range of a mile or more. A shotgun is an ideal home defense weapon because the shot dissipates quickly, as well as accuracy at short range - you only have to basically point in their general direction and the shot cone does the rest. Fire a shotgun (with other than slugs in it) at a normal solid-core door or wall, i.e. in a home defense situation where you’re shooting at someone in your house, and it’s unlikely for the shot you missed to go through the walls and especially unlikely to hurt someone next door, but will very handily mess up whoever has broken in. A pistol, or even more a high caliber rifle, will potentially go through the person, through the wall, into the next wall, and kill someone on the far side.
It’s also why they are the weapon of choice for riot police. You can fire rubber-, sandbag-, or even rock salt-loaded 12 gauge rounds, but even if you load for bear, you’ll knock down the first line of rioters but won’t kill granny in her flat down the street, which is kinda what you want if you’re a cop.
Think about this - Cheney shot his lawyer from about 30 yards away with light bird shot from a 12 gauge. Birdshot is designed to disperse in a ‘cone’ pattern and spread out to kill a bird in flight (or smash a clay pigeon) if you can catch the bird with part of that cone; the cone does mean that the shot is pretty far and wide apart, though. The Lawyer didn’t die, in spite of being shot basically in the face - I think he only caught 5 or 10 pieces of shot out of about 150 fired. It’s all about the type of shell as described above. I’d bet the nutjob in the church had buckshot in his gun, so his effective range for lethal damage was about 50 yards, which in a full medium-sized church is pretty much everybody but the choir and the minister.
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I seem to remember Cheney used a 28 gage shotgun. I remember because I have never used one and had to look up the specs on it.
My home defense choice is a 40 caliber handgun with hollow point 155 grain rounds. My thinking is that an exterior wall is going to break the bullet up into pieces that would be unlikely to penetrate a neighbors exterior wall and still have enough energy to do any damage. Is that wrong?