Would you do the Nazi salute if you found yourself among a group of Skinheads? Bow to Allah? Chant? I think it’s disingenuous to pretend you’re something you’re not.
Kalhoun,
I have a problem with equating a relatively mainstream American religion to skinheads or other more fringe groups. I’m not sure that the appropriate response to the most offensive extremist group one can think of is the same as the appropriate response to a mainstream, even ordinary group.
Of course, context also matters. I can’t imagine what set of circumstances would lead to me having dinner with skinheads, but eating dinner with ones friends or family is common.
In the situation described in the OP, the parents are Catholic, have always been Catholic, this is not a whim or a phase, and showing respect for their religious beliefs and rituals is appropriate. Showing respect may or may not include making the sign of the cross or taking communion.
(I’d vote the sign of the cross as mostly harmless, communion less so–more into the sending inappropriate signals territory. Then again, I’m Christian, not Catholic, and have never made the sign of the cross so I’d feel like an idiot attempting it, and would be troubled by the theological differences between the Catholic Church’s understanding of the significance of communion and my own.)
In the particular case described in the OP, I think the husband is putting the comfort of the parents above the comfort of the wife–which is not neccessarily a bad thing, but . . . I agree with tomndebb that it sounds like maybe husband is letting wife take the brunt of parental disapproval of disinclination to be a practicing Catholic. While this is not neccesarily a bad thing, in this situation it appears to make wife unhappy with husband–which is usually not a good thing.
Upon reflection, I remember how I intended to conclude the above post:
There is a spectrum of behaviors which indicate respect for a person or their beliefs, ranging from “refraining from pointing and laughing” on one end to “full scale participation” on the other. When one mixes religion and family, the result is too volatile a brew to provide good advice over the internet for a particular situation. Still, to suggest that bowing one’s head, or wearing a head covering is somehow equivalent to saying “these are my beliefs, too” strikes me as being unneccessarily antagonistic. There certainly are people who seem to think that all religion is harmful, and I can’t relate to that, but there are times when by not attacking someone you are showing respect for that PERSON rather than for their RELIGION
Yes and no. As I said, we do not attend church with them anymore, and I make it a point to always have plans in the event they ask us to. As for getting a “stink eye” from his mother - that doesn’t quite happen. She represses and then will eventually send us a letter, or I’ll confront her and then it comes up. Perhaps it’s my fault for confronting her… but the last time I did that was years ago but it beats getting a letter! Fortunately she stopped sending letters and now, rather than confronting her I tend to ignore her when she requests that my husband meet up with this nice Catholic girl he used to know, or when she makes some comment about us going to church with them, or how fat Bob is getting (he’s NOT fat!).
Now, I just talk to his sisters and let them know that at the time I would have converted and that he talked me out of it, not the other way around. Knowing them, when the subject comes up they’ll tell her what really happened.
Personally, I think she’s calmed down a lot in the past couple years and doubt she would disown my husband and I. I also do not see this as a polite gesture, because it is inconsistent with the actions of her other family members. Her favorite sister-in-law is Jewish, never performs the cross and doesn’t even bow her head during the prayer. Plus, the majority of her sisters and brothers switched to other branches and they don’t perform the sign of the cross either, so I don’t see why she would disown us for not doing it either.
And, when they came to visit us while we were living in Seattle, we found them a church to attend but didn’t go with them. She was a little miffed about that, but that could have been because we can’t control ourselves… Of course, they did only come to visit us once (after we stopped living in sin - that was a GREAT letter!), and now we’re close enough for a day trip.
Cliffy, we’re definitely not atheist. I’m not sure how our beliefs would be described, but we do not believe in a being in the sky, the trinity, that Jesus was God on Earth, etc. Performing religious rituals is unsettling to me. Not all, but most. Praying has a few exceptions: when certain terms are not used, like omit Jesus, Lord, Christ, it’s either family or friends praying and they’re not praying for me*, otherwise I feel really awkward and/or get really angry.
- That is a Pit-able offense, unless, of course, it’s in jest.
I have never been Catholic, and not especially religeous.
I once went with a Catholic friend and his family to visit the National Cathedral. I don’t remember the reason was for the visit, but it may have been just to sight see. At one point we went through a doorway and to the side of the doorway was Holy Water. My friend’s family, one by one, dripped their fingers into the water and crossed themselves as they went through the doorway.
When it came to my turn, I looked at the bowl (Chalice… whatever), then looked at my friend and his family, then back at the bowl. At that moment I felt a presence at my side, it was a priest. I looked at him and he must have felt my confusion. He laughed and slapped my back and told me to go on.
I was relieved to say the least, the last thing I wanted to do was insult anyone.
Well, the skinhead thing was an extreme example, but the jist of it is the same. What if you went to a Muslim wedding? I understand that people do things to appease family. But I would say that the family could appease the DIL just as easily. It doesn’t change their faith to skip the praying when non-believers are around. Praying, and “approving” of non-believers’ faking it is a subtle form of pressure. Family peace is a two-way street, and many believers don’t want to make the effort.
If someone invited me to a Muslim wedding, I’d do all in my power to be inconspicuous. Not out of respect for Islam, but out of respect for the person inviting me. Besides, I’d be curious–not desparate to preserve the sanctity of my own beliefs, by not doing anything to compromise them. I’d probably sit quietly rather than read aloud readings that conflicted with my beliefs. I would dress as their beliefs dictate–up to the point where I, as a woman, must wear a veil or concealing robe; at which point I would (probably) decline the invitation. If the person inviting me was truly a friend, there would be plenty of other chances to express any disdain for Islam I felt a need to express.
I will grant you that showing respect for other people’s beliefs may include respecting their right not to believe or not to participate–and I will agree that in practice, some believers have as hard a time with this notion as some non-believers do.
I am married to a man from a Catholic family. Except for our wedding, religion has not been a big deal. However, on the few occasions I have had to be in a church with him, I would have sooner cut off my hands and glued my ass to the pew rather than make the sign of the cross or kneel. But I never minded if he did it. I didn’t even feel weird looking at the top of his head while he kneeled. If my in-laws have a problem with it, all the better. They were such pains in the ass when we got married, I hope it drives a knife in their hearts to see me sitting their with my hands in my lap. Alas, they don’t even seem to notice.
The thing I really don’t understand is WHY someone would want a non-believer to go through the motions. What is the motivation there? Anyone??
Only if taking inventory:
“Let’s see…spectacles, testicles, wallet and watch…yep, all there.”
The National Cathedral is not a Catholic cathedral. It is an Episcopal cathedral.
Oh, cool. I didn’t know. My friend and his family were however. and while I didn’t want to upset the priest…
This friend one time got mad at me because he was talking about wanting to meet the Pope and how kissing his ring was somehow exciting. I asked him why he would want to kiss a ring (I was like 14 at the time), he got very loud and insisting that I was just being stupid because anyone would want to kiss the Pope’s ring. Stupid me… I said that there was no way I would kiss a someones ring and that the Pope was just a man. I was invited to leave the house and his mother said that she would be talking to my father about my attitude.
I, of course, got in no trouble at home, but I tried mightily to not offend the family’s religeous values again.
Right, particularly with receiving Communion. Even if you don’t see it as important, if you know how special it is to believers, wouldn’t you refrain out of respect?
Alas, there’s not much to be curious about re Muslim weddings. They’re one of the least ceremonial things in existence. The groom signs a contract, the bride and family (possibly in a separate room) sign the contract, and the reception begins. It has all the grandeur and romance of a wedding down at the county courthouse.
I went to a Hindu ceremony once because a non-hindu invited me to a dance recital there. It was not a full regular service, but still I was unaware there would be a blessing of the dance. The head guy started passing around a finger bowl with flowers in it and since he spoke no English I had a lot of nodding and eyebrow raising to get him to pass me by. I felt like a fool, both for seeming insulting to him, but also for being place in that position by my friend.
Mostly with a little round lace doily type thing called a “chapel veil.” My mother had one from when she was little and she gave it to me. I used it as a table cloth for my Barbies.
I’ve been an atheist all my life but being in love with a Catholic woman, I attended Church Mass with her at her suggestion.
I actual enjoy understanding the Mass and taking to heart the homilies and more. I started to appreciate all of its significance and soon started participating in all but the Communion. So, yes, I make the Sign of the Cross in unison with everyone there and feel a sort of kinship together.
Now attending every week for many months, I actual like the entire worship experience and my, now, fiance asked if I’d consider converting. I value the idea of us being together on this so I’m giving it, and the idea of a God, serious thought (studying the Apologetics, etc.).
Point is, a lot depends on who you are. From my personal experience, it can become a good thing.
When I’m stuck in the presence of Catholics (thank you, tomndebb of ten years past!), and they bring out some food and get all up in their praying and cross-signing thang, I explain loudly that I am a member of the Mevlevi sect of the Sufi faith and I start shimmying and shaking my booty all over the dining room like a Whirling Dervish.
Go for it. It just convinces us that much more of the wisdom and correctness of our beliefs. :p:p
Should a mon-Muslim get out a prayer rug and face Mecca and pray five times a day, when the muezzen calls from the minaret, if there are Muslims around doing it?