This is a debate in my family, so I thought I’d put the thread here. I apologize in advance if I’ve placed it in the wrong place.
As a little background, my husband was raised Catholic, attended a Catholic high school and Catholic undergraduate school. He left the Catholic faith sometime while immersed in the Catholic surroundings and later met me while in graduate school.
When we first met we would periodically attend church with his parents, because his family had a religious tradition and mine did not. While at the church he would take the sacrament and when I asked why he would explain that it was just something to do to not freak out his parents (even though he had told them he was no longer Catholic).
Fast forward to when he proposed and I asked whether I should convert for the wedding. He said no and argued extensively about why I should not convert. Since he argued so much about why I shouldn’t convert I further questioned why he took the sacrament if he didn’t believe it and told him that he should be true to himself and not give his mother the wrong impression just to make her feel better, not to mention its sacrilegious.
So, we stopped going to church with them, we stopped being Christian**, I didn’t convert, we were not married in a church*** and his mother has held it against me ever since.
Now years later when we go to his parents’ house for dinner, my husband does the sign of the cross during the prayer prior to dinner. I don’t and argue that he shouldn’t because it leaves his mother with the impression that the reason he isn’t a practicing Catholic is because of me which causes problems between her and me.
He considers it a sign of respect for his parents’ beliefs, while I consider it disrespectful and deceptive because rather than making his feelings known he sends his parents the wrong impression that I’m the reason he’s not Catholic (rather than he’s the reason I’m not Catholic/Christian). Now he has talked with his parents about not being Catholic, but they don’t take him seriously and consider him a lazy Catholic that will eventually return to the faith (particularly if he divorces me, since we’re not technically married anyway, from the Catholic perspective). My opinion is that we should stand together and I refuse to do the sign of the cross because I do not believe what it stands for.
My question is, should a non-Catholic (and non-Christian) perform the sign of the cross?
At the time I was a Christian and considered it a change in venue not a change in faith.
** He has a pretty extensive religious education and could bring up things I’d never heard of, so I began reading and questioning everything I believe. Religion has turned into our biggest conversation area.
*** Since he changed his mind on getting married in a Catholic church, decided that he didn’t want me to convert and we lived in a different state, we let my parents plan the wedding and they picked a wedding chapel close to their home.
If you guys are that serious about not being Catholic that he would talk you out of converting, then I would say no, he shouldn’t do the sign of the cross (or join in the prayer at all, assuming they are doing the Catholic prayer). If you guys want to be respectful to his parents, simply bow your heads and remain quiet during the prayer.
Having said that, I understand why he does it. Even though he’s left the Church, it’s hard to sever all ties. There was a thread somewhere a few weeks ago about how it’s harder to leave the Catholic faith than other faiths because it can involve so many aspects of your life – Catholic communities usually have a more distinct culture than other major Christian denominations. Things with religious significance that you grew up doing – like doing the sign of the cross – can cross over into the realm of family tradition. Severing all aspects of his Catholic upbringing would be uprooting a lot of his past.
The Sign of the Cross is simply a prayer. If you do not believe in the Trinity, it makes little sense to make a gesture that recognizes a Father, Son, and Holy Spirit while invoking a symbol of the death of Jesus.
My general advice to people who are stuck in the presence of Catholics is that:
if the person is Christian and feels like joining the Catholics in prayer, s/he should go ahead and make the Sign with them and if the person is uncomfortable with that particular prayer (for whatever reason), s/he should simply refrain;
if the person is not Christian, it would seem more consistent with his or her beliefs to refrain from making the Sign, since it expresses a belief the person does not share
On the other hand, I do not think that God is going to take offense at a gesture intended to set one’s companions at ease by not making a point to refuse to participate.
Those are the theological issues.
Unfortunately, it sounds as though your issues are a bit more complex and personal, and I am not going to venture a solution. *
And, despite the religious nature of the question, this does not really sound as though it will result in a Great Debate, so I am going to pass it over to IMHO.
I will say that it sounds as though your husband could make a bit more of an effort to make sure that his mother knows that you did not “lead him astray,” but I may be reading more into that than is necessary.
I’ve tried explaining many, many times - and she still doesn’t understand. I know my mother. I see such actions as being a buffer so that my mother doesn’t go completely insane. I am not a man of habit - The only reason I do that is to hold the social bounds of my universe together. My mom usually freaks when I bring up the fact that I am not Catholic, and she’s threatened complete disownment. My half-assed sign (partial-manipulation, of course) is out of respact and holding it all together. I see it as a diplomatic gesture only.
Yeah, I can see that. I’m going to do a complete about face from my first post and say that you may as well do it. I took the opposite stance in my first post because in general I hate it when people treat their religion like a buffet line – just taking the bits they like, ignoring the rest. Not that you were doing that based on the description in the original post; I just have a knee-jerk habit of thinking people should stay true to their professed belief (or non-belief). But there is definitely something to be said for keeping the peace.
And I can’t say I haven’t done it as well – my mom’s not quite as adamant as yours (no threats of disowning), but I do say the blessing when she’s there. (I also wore a yamulka at my cousin’s Bar Mitzvah, even though I don’t think God cares if my head is covered.) So yeah, I guess I’m a hypocrite.
I can see why he does it…habit and all. But it appears to be more out of fear than respect for their religion (which you say he doesn’t believe…not much respect going on there).
When the subject is up for discussion, does he still let them believe that he’s a believer or does he leave you getting the stink eye from MIL while he pretends to be “one of them”?
Someone up near the top of this thread suggested that during prayer situations non-believers should bow their head in silence. That gives others the impression you’re praying. I am silent when I’m stuck in a group prayer (so they can concentrate) but I won’t bow my head. It’s misleading.
First, non-Catholics believe in the Trinity and make the sign of the cross, although not as often (I usually do after I take Communion).
I have no problem with respecting other people’s beliefs- it’s good manners. If I was somewhere that required women of faith to cover their hair, I would too. Not because it was my belief, but because I respect their views and wouldn’t want to give offence.
Again, just respect of others and good manners. Neither of which ever hurt.
I would just like to support EJsGirl’s assertion that it isn’t only Catholics who do the sign. Most Lutherans do. And many Quakers do as well. I’m a renegade Christian, I suppose, and I do it often. I like Tom’s description of it as a prayer.
Liberal, it’s interesting that you say most Lutherans make the sign of the cross. The only Lutherans I’ve ever seen do this were pastors at certain points in the service, usually just while giving the benediction. I grew up attending Missouri Synod churches; perhaps other Lutheran denominations have a different practice.
And Orthodox, though we do it much much more often than Catholics do. At a typical Russian parish, the average parishioner will have made the sign of the cross over a hundred times before the Divine Liturgy (mass) is over.
I’m an atheist, and the idea od participating in another religion’s rituals horrifies me for several reasons. First of all, since I don’t believe, aping the actions of believers communing with their god is disrespectful; what they take as deeply serious I’d do just because it’s convenient, and that’s a form of mockery of their beliefs. Just as importantly, I’m not ashamed of what I know to be true, and I don’t think anyone else should be ashamed of it either, no matter how often our society tells us to be. Therefore, I don’t pass. And to hell with anyone who would make me. (Of course, unlike Bob, it’s not my parents I’d be alienating with such a stance, because they’re not religious either. So it’s easier for me than it might be for him.)
Now, I didn’t notice a mention of whether you’re an atheist now, or just a believer of different stripe. So maybe your calculus is different. But if you are an atheist, every time you act like it’s something to be ashamed of, you make it that much harder for the rest of us. And every time you participate in rituals that don’t concern you, you cheapen them for those that care. So you have to decide how important those things are.
When I was religious, I was a member of first a Congregational and then a Presbyterian church. Neither has anything remotely like performing the sign of the cross. If I had gone to a church where such was the custom, I would definitely NOT have done it. So I certainly would not do so now.
Conventions of dress in a religious building should, IMHO, be followed as much as possible as a sign of respect to the members of the congregation. I don’t know if it’s still true, but at one time it was expected that ladies would cover their heads in a Catholic church. I would have done so even if it meant plopping a handkerchief on my head. I would expect that the same thing should be done by an adult male entering a synagogue. I’ve heard that spare yarmulkes are often provided for this purpose.
In general I’d advise non-Catholics to simply sit quietly and respectfully if they don’t hold the same beliefs as Catholics. Everyone will understand and accept this.
Obviously this will differ depending upon the action/prayer. As others have noted, belief in the Holy Trinity is not unique to Catholics and many other Christian denominations make the sign of the cross too. And most Christians are happy to join in saying prayers such as the Our Father.
However, if we’re talking about genuflecting before the Blessed Sacrament then it’s a bit different. To a Catholic this is a gesture of reverence and it always looks odd when I see non-Catholics (usually at weddings) stumbling over this action from some notion of “politeness”, with no idea that by doing it they are acknowledging a very significant Catholic belief - that of the Real Presence - which is not generally shared by other Christians (except the Orthodox).
No, nobody should make the sign of the cross if they aren’t really into it.
And you shouldn’t be bullied into bowing your head and holding hands to say grace if it’s not your religion. If you were dining with a Dervish would you roll your eyes up and dancy in a mystical frenzy? I’d hope not, and it’s the same sort of thing. Your SO is being too demanding.
As a considerably lapsed Catholic, I’d add only that it’s probably manners to stand up and sit down at the same time everyone else does so as it not to seem like a deliberate snub, and shaking hands with someone next to you during the “Peace be with you” bit won’t kill anyone no matter what beliefs they do or don’t hold. But yeah, other than that just sit still.
It could be a regional thing, too. My wife, from Minnesota, was surprised to see that all (or the vast, vast majority) of Lutheran churches in the South have red doors.
