[QUOTE=lisacurl]
Taking catsix’s opinion as anything close to what most women would think in this situation is probably not the most advisable course of action.
[/QUOTE]
Well that is true, but earlier in the thread, last night, there was some general agreement that the offering of the chair stuff was dated at least up north.
Jim
[QUOTE=What Exit?]
Well that is true, but earlier in the thread, last night, there was some general agreement that the offering of the chair stuff was dated at least up north.
Jim
[/QUOTE]
Yankees don’t know any better. Bless their hearts.
Primarily from subway experience in NYC, and being a young, healthy woman, I can’t say I see a lot of men standing up and offering their seat to a woman, undisabled or young, once they’re already sitting down. However, there’re often cases where I’m standing next to a man, and the person sitting in front of us gets up for their stop, and the man will motion for me to sit down. I would feel weird if someone stood up to give me a seat, but I consider offering me the first chance to sit down to be friendly and polite and I usually accept unless my stop is obscenely close.
I have to say, though, that I’m in the minority about giving special privileges to pregnant women and women with babies- I don’t agree with it. If there’s a “child-friendly” reserved parking space available in the front of the lot, I will not hesitate to park there. I feel like, if you want to have children, that’s great, but I’m not going to hand you my seats, spaces, or favors because of it.
In fact, I would be extremely offended if a pregnant woman ASKED ME to give up my seat on the subway. What nerve! I would say to her, “The reason I take birth control is so I don’t have to ask that question.” If you’re pregnant, why not take a cab? And, if you can’t afford a cab to your destination in your third trimester, then you probably cannot afford a child, IMHO. Everyone is tired. Your decision to have a baby is your own, not mine; the fact that I’m going to have to hear it screaming on the train in a few short months doesn’t mean I have to inconvenience myself ahead of time, as well.
P.S. I am often the only commuter in rush-hour NYC morning metro traffic to offer her seat to the elderly (and I always have a seat- I live at the beginning stop of the ride). I have a heart, a bleeding one at times. I’m just sick of the feeling of public-arena entitlement that pregnant women and mothers with babies/young children tend to harbor.
P.P.S. jaderabbit, this is not a personal attack, and I hope you don’t see it as one. You, asking politely and worrying about it, are not the problem. If every pregnant woman and mother with baby was polite, I’d feel much more charitable in general.
[QUOTE=DianaG]
How is it rude to expect physically able people to accomodate those who are (however voluntarily or temporarily) less physically able?
[/quote]
It’s generally not. But that’s not what this thread was started about. You’ll possibly recall that the OP asked about pregnant women. It’s even in the title. Just because someone is pregnant does not make them physically incapable of standing. It does not even mean they are more fatigued than, say, a 25-year-old male.
As a hypothetical, imagine that I just got done working a 12-hour shift in a factory. (This has happened in recent memory.) I may or may not be visibly exhausted, but I am possibly more fatigued than a pregnant woman who has been sitting most of the day in an office environment.
This is academic for me though. There is no metro here, nor any buses. I think the last time I was on public transportation was back in junior high school when I rode the bus. There were possibly a few preggers there, but not many. (They generally went to “alternative school”. I’m not exactly sure what that was, but it was the place spoken about in hushed tones. It’s where all the trouble-makers, pot-dealers, pregnant girls, people who brought weapons to school, and people who smoked went.
In short, it was where we all hoped to go when we died.)
Just because something is prefaced with “please” doesn’t mean it’s optional. It’s just a nice way of saying, “These are the rules on this particular form of transportation.” Unless the sign was explicit that it was merely an optional suggestion (such as, "You may, if you choose, give up your seat to the following groups … ") then I would assume that those are the rules. If I ride in public transportation, then I should follow the rules of public transportation.
Right now I know exactly what at least one or two people are thinking, “But giving up your seat to pregnant women is one of the rules of public transportation!” Thse people may be right in some cases, but I should remind these people that they do not themselves own such means of transportation, and do not themselves set their policies.
I got caught in the real paradox this afternoon (after replying to this post last night). Youngish lady, probably mid twenties. Noticeable stomach as she had tightish clothes. I had no idea whether she was pregnant or not. Do I offer her my seat and run the risk of really embarrassing myself and her? Or sit there and be considered rude?
I was saved by the guy opposite offering his seat, which she politley declined.
I’ll give up a seat if I notice someone looks uncomfortable nearby. Pregnant, sick, disabled, elderly…
And, please don’t take offense, but I don’t like kids and I really hope I’m never ever pregnant. That said, while I see the point people have in saying that it’s your choice to be pregnant, I would like to take the chance to make a pregnant woman’s day a bit better by offering her my seat if she looked like she was in discomfort. Were I sitting on a bus and a pregnant woman was standing nearby having a rough time, I would just feel so uncomfortable myself about the fact that I was still sitting that I’d be basically doing myself a favour as well by offering her the seat. As some have mentioned, though, it can be difficult to determine who may be offended by being offered a seat - what if she’s just fat and perfectly capable of standing, thankyouverymuch? Or if she feels perfectly fine and is sick of people falling all over themselves to help her? So if she looked completely fine with standing, I probably wouldn’t offer.
It’s a bit different if I’m in the “courtesy seats” near the front of the bus. I look out the window at every stop. If elderly or disabled people are getting on, I get up and walk to the back so that I’m well clear of the seats before they’re even on the bus. I do this mainly because I don’t like to offer my seats to older men, in case they were raised to give their seats to a lady no questions asked and feel uncomfortable accepting a seat from me. This way the seat’s vacant and he can sit if he wants to, and stand if he does not, and he has no idea that I got up for him.
Once someone offered me a seat on the bus! I couldn’t believe it, because I’m only 26 and able-bodied enough to stand (most of the time). Honestly, I was a bit taken aback - like, do I look like I can’t stand up? But I figured he was just being polite because that’s how he was, so I just said “Oh! Well, no thank you, I’m okay!” in quite a surprised tone.
I’m usually a door-holder, too - for everyone. Hold as in, if the person behind me is close enough, I hold it open and allow the next person to take it and walk through, not hold as in hold and stand there and wait for the other person to walk through. Occasionally, I give the hold-and-wait - for example, someone with packages will get the hold-and-wait treatment.
Gee, I wrote a really long response to a thread which really only requires a short one, didn’t I? I tend to do that sometimes.
[QUOTE=rinni]
I’ll give up a seat if I notice someone looks uncomfortable nearby. Pregnant, sick, disabled, elderly…
And, please don’t take offense, but I don’t like kids and I really hope I’m never ever pregnant. That said, while I see the point people have in saying that it’s your choice to be pregnant, I would like to take the chance to make a pregnant woman’s day a bit better by offering her my seat if she looked like she was in discomfort. Were I sitting on a bus and a pregnant woman was standing nearby having a rough time, I would just feel so uncomfortable myself about the fact that I was still sitting that I’d be basically doing myself a favour as well by offering her the seat. As some have mentioned, though, it can be difficult to determine who may be offended by being offered a seat - what if she’s just fat and perfectly capable of standing, thankyouverymuch? Or if she feels perfectly fine and is sick of people falling all over themselves to help her? So if she looked completely fine with standing, I probably wouldn’t offer.
It’s a bit different if I’m in the “courtesy seats” near the front of the bus. I look out the window at every stop. If elderly or disabled people are getting on, I get up and walk to the back so that I’m well clear of the seats before they’re even on the bus. I do this mainly because I don’t like to offer my seats to older men, in case they were raised to give their seats to a lady no questions asked and feel uncomfortable accepting a seat from me. This way the seat’s vacant and he can sit if he wants to, and stand if he does not, and he has no idea that I got up for him.
Once someone offered me a seat on the bus! I couldn’t believe it, because I’m only 26 and able-bodied enough to stand (most of the time). Honestly, I was a bit taken aback - like, do I look like I can’t stand up? But I figured he was just being polite because that’s how he was, so I just said “Oh! Well, no thank you, I’m okay!” in quite a surprised tone.
I’m usually a door-holder, too - for everyone. Hold as in, if the person behind me is close enough, I hold it open and allow the next person to take it and walk through, not hold as in hold and stand there and wait for the other person to walk through. Occasionally, I give the hold-and-wait - for example, someone with packages will get the hold-and-wait treatment.
Gee, I wrote a really long response to a thread which really only requires a short one, didn’t I? I tend to do that sometimes.
[/QUOTE]
Rinni, you sound like a sweetie. Never change. 
[QUOTE=BlackKnight]
snip>> Just because someone is pregnant does not make them physically incapable of standing. It does not even mean they are more fatigued than, say, a 25-year-old male. <<snip
QUOTE]
Errr - actually it does. I’m in my first trimester, and I can absolutely assure you that fatigue is one of the major symptoms. I’m not talking ‘a bit tired’ - I mean I am absolutely exhausted ALL the time. As in flu-like exhaustion. I’ve worked shift and night work and this is much worse - it’s constant and accompanied by nausea, painful boobs and the rest of the hormonal package pregnancy brings. Just getting up, having a shower and having breakfast is really hard work at the moment.
To all those who wouldn’t give up their seat to a pregnant women, you might want to bear this in mind. On the bus on the way into work this morning I was overcome with waves of nausea and exhaustion - I asked the man in his mid-twenties sitting in the disabled/less able seat if I could please sit down for a second, as I was pregnant and felt ill and light headed. The bus was packed and hot and I really thought I was going to faint. He ignored me and carried on reading his paper.
Well - he carried on reading his paper until I threw up on him.
[QUOTE=BlackKnight]
You’ll possibly recall that the OP asked about pregnant women. It’s even in the title. Just because someone is pregnant does not make them physically incapable of standing. It does not even mean they are more fatigued than, say, a 25-year-old male.
[/QUOTE]
Not necessarily, but it’s certainly likely. Being pregnant is (sometimes) exhausting, nauseating, and painful. Why not at least offer?
Wow. You’re just made of charm, aren’t you?
Believe it or not, most people don’t get pregnant just to annoy you. I’m always amazed at people who loudly and proudly proclaim that they have absolutely no consideration for their fellow humans. “Look at me!!! I’m a rebel!!! Bad to the bone, I am!!! I have no time or patience for your social niceties!!! LOOK AT ME!!! I AM VERY SPECIAL AND IMPORTANT, DAMMIT!!!”
[QUOTE=Oakminster]
Yankees don’t know any better. Bless their hearts.
[/QUOTE]
Oakminster, you’re getting closer and closer to “hero” status!
Starfishfiller, if the owner of a parking lot has chosen to make life a bit easier on his/her customers with small children by creating “family” parking spaces, I really fail to see how that is giving up “your” space. Feel entitled much?
catsix, in the case of many older men, they are not treating you as they would a disabled man. They are treating you as they were raised to treat a lady. It’s a shame you feel offended by it. However, women like you are the reason why pregnant women don’t get offered seats on the train - no one wants to be the target of an “offended” woman.
I hold doors for people behind me, also. It doesn’t mean I consider them incapable of opening the door. I just don’t think it’s polite to let a door close in someone’s face.
[QUOTE=starfishfillet]
In fact, I would be extremely offended if a pregnant woman ASKED ME to give up my seat on the subway. What nerve! I would say to her, “The reason I take birth control is so I don’t have to ask that question.” If you’re pregnant, why not take a cab? And, if you can’t afford a cab to your destination in your third trimester, then you probably cannot afford a child, IMHO. Everyone is tired. Your decision to have a baby is your own, not mine; the fact that I’m going to have to hear it screaming on the train in a few short months doesn’t mean I have to inconvenience myself ahead of time, as well.
[/QUOTE]
Jesus fucking Christ. There was plenty that got my goal in this thread up until now, but this tipped me into ‘reply’ mode.
I can afford my children just fine, thank you, but could never afford to take a cab back and forth to work every single day. And I shouldn’t have to, just because the sight of my breeding body might offend you.
I have to go with DianaG on this one. I think you and catsix should just carpool together from now on.
I hold the door for someone behind me. If someone holds the first door open for me, I will go through it and then hold the next door for them. I have, however, encountered men who absolutely will not walk through that door. No woman is going to insult them by holding a door for them.
I’m not opposed to polite behavior. I am opposed to treating people differently based on their gender. I’ve specifically said several times that the thing that grates on me is when men who would never think of offering their seat to an able bodied young man will do so to a woman. I have a problem with being lumped into a group that consists of handicapped men, old people, and people with boobs.
Chivalry is built around the premise that women are dainty and weak and need to be protected and coddled and shown deference no matter what their abilities that a man would not get. It doesn’t exactly do much for equal treatment.
I’ll give up my seat, but I don’t think a pregnant woman is entitled to a seat, and if you ask and the request sounds like entitlement, I’ll ignore you. Its the polite thing to do - giving up a seat for someone who is obviously in less condition to stand than you are. But its also the polite thing not to demand other people be polite.
On the gender thing, I’m female and open doors for both men and women - if I get there first, I open the doors. I’d politely refuse a seat on the bus - unless I were pregnant or otherwise incapacitated (which includes - and is actually a bigger deal than being pregnant - having small children with me - nothing like standing on a bus holding the hands of your two and three year old!)
[QUOTE=catsix]
I’ve specifically said several times that the thing that grates on me is when men who would never think of offering their seat to an able bodied young man will do so to a woman. I have a problem with being lumped into a group that consists of handicapped men, old people, and people with boobs.
[/QUOTE]
But how do you know? You’re walking around with a massive hard-on for a premise that may or may not exist. Maybe you look tired to someone and that’s why they’re offering their seat to you. Maybe he feels like standing and just thought he’d offer it up to the nearest person. I just think it’s such a minor issue. It doesn’t deserve the consideration you’re giving it.
While I am a polite person ("Swear to God I am!” – Donnie Baker), I think catsix has a good point. Most importantly, she is highlighting a dilemma that has plagued the Modern Woman™ for decades: women want equal treatment and they want to be coddled. You can’t have it both ways. No wonder so many of us men are confused.
[QUOTE=catsix]
I hold the door for someone behind me. If someone holds the first door open for me, I will go through it and then hold the next door for them. I have, however, encountered men who absolutely will not walk through that door. No woman is going to insult them by holding a door for them.
I’m not opposed to polite behavior. I am opposed to treating people differently based on their gender. I’ve specifically said several times that the thing that grates on me is when men who would never think of offering their seat to an able bodied young man will do so to a woman. I have a problem with being lumped into a group that consists of handicapped men, old people, and people with boobs.
Chivalry is built around the premise that women are dainty and weak and need to be protected and coddled and shown deference no matter what their abilities that a man would not get. It doesn’t exactly do much for equal treatment.
[/QUOTE]
I really don’t understand why it pushes your buttons so much that a man would be polite to a woman. Back when I was allowed to wear high heels, I would have been overjoyed if a man had offered me his seat on a swaying, crowded train.
Maybe it’s a Southern thing, but I don’t find chivalry offensive at all.
[QUOTE=Ghanima]
You are an idiot.
[/QUOTE]
No direct insults in IMHO. You know where the Pit is.
[QUOTE=Crafter_Man]
I think catsix has a good point. Most importantly, she is highlighting a dilemma that has plagued the Modern Woman™ for decades: women want equal treatment and they want to be coddled.
[/QUOTE]
This is a dilemma that exists only in your mind. The Modern Woman™ is about as monolithic as any group consisting of 50% of the population can be. Try viewing women as people, and treating them the way you’d like to be treated, and you may find that their reactions become less “confusing.”
One doesn’t offer a pregnant woman doesn’t want a seat because she’s a woman, but because she’s pregnant. I truly don’t understand why this is such a difficult concept for some people.
Or even: One doesn’t offer a pregnant woman a seat because she’s a woman, but because she’s pregnant.
:smack:
[QUOTE=Sampiro]
Gore Vidal once said something to the effect of “if men got pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament”
[/QUOTE]
Actually, the quote was originally said by Florynce Kennedy (and errorously to Rose Kennedy!). Living me to say: If a woman says something profound, people will attribute it to a man!
But back to the subject at hand: On all New Jersey Transit buses, the drivers have the option of asking the people in the front seats to move to another seat and give it to people who obviously need it more, and that includes the pregnant.