Should parents work at keeping their teen kids virgin?

[Kimstu]

cmkeller: Absolutely I intend on keeping my kids, male and female, virgins until they’re married.

But Chaim, I may be misremembering from previous threads, but didn’t you mention at one point that you (or your wife, can’t remember which) were married already by the time you were out of your teens? I think that that’s an important thing to specify in such a discussion: keeping kids virgin till they’re married is quite a different proposition when you’ve got a shadchen (or a rabbi or even just the parents) encouraging them to marry shortly after adolescence, as opposed to expecting them to remain virgins well into their 20’s or 30’s. Most people here would probably feel less disturbed about their teenagers having sex (with proper precautions) than about their teenagers getting married. If I misremembered your situation, of course, please ignore the whole post.

[Darqangelle]

And I’m not going to profess that if I did it any other way, that it would be wrong. I WILL say my life would be very different. But I don’t look back on my life with any regrets.

That said, I’ll just throw in some points based on personal experience alone, and not something I read in a magazine or study somewhere:

1. I lost my virginity at the age of 15. She was 16 and had already done it once or twice.

Looking back, I can tell you thatI don’t think I necessarily did it “early”, nor did I do it just to “get off”. I was NOT predatory about it, I was uncomfortably fumbling around. She enjoyed it, I enjoyed it. I felt guilty about it afterwards.

To say that I did it just to “get off” is arguable. But, I did it, and I definately felt some odd emotions afterwards. Was I in love? No. I lied to her and myself when I did, but hey, I’m 15 years old! I hardly know what love is beyond infatuation and nobody could teach me.

However, I do not consider myself to be screwed up in any way because I had it at (what many on this board might consider) a young age.

2. My parents are and always will be cool. They offered advice if I wanted it, tried to make sure I was educated correctly (most of it was through the Canadian school system, and it was pretty good), and always offered support.

My parents were the best teachers by one main aspect-they lead by example. They still love each other today and prove that daily, and it shows.
They didn’t set rules or boundaries, just suggestions, education and support.

3. Since my first time, I have had both successful long-term and short-term relationships. I have had my share of one-night stands, one failed marriage, sexually-based relationships, emotionally-based relationships, and combinations of both.

I have had what some might consider a ludicrous number of lovers (I call myself a slut), what others might consider “a little low” (I call myself selective), but to me, is quite simply my life. So, I consider the number to be average.

In regards to the fall of my marriage, if I was to start a thread on it, we’d be able to find an equal number of people touting their wisdom and say that it failed because of sex, the sexual attitudes of my wife and I, or something else along those lines. We’d also find equally viable arguments against those factors.

I say that it “just wasn’t meant to be” for a number of reasons (No use going into it fully here)

4. Presently, I have no complaints. I have been called a “great lover” and a “great person” by friends and lovers who enjoy being in my company. My present girlfriend adores me, and enjoys being with me as much as I enjoy being with her.

That said, I could only be here in this place if I had taken the route that I did. I don’t regret anything that happened in my life, including my first time. Everything that happened shaped me to what I am now, regardless of when I started.

5. The other side of the coin: One of my ex-girlfriends is still a virgin. She was quite the looker in University adn certainly in her prime, but her parents pretty much instilled the “no sex until marriage” doctrine. The funny double-standard? Her two brothers… you KNOW they aren’t virgins. And they’re not married.

Her? Apparently at her thirtieth birthday, she exclaimed that “A virgin at twenty is cute. A virgin at thirty isn’t.”

Someone with that sort of regret going through her mind doesn’t strike me as the sort of person who’s happy with “her choice”. --And no matter how much you may say “It’s my child’s decision not to have sex before marriage” yet take them to church to make them feel guilty about any sort of passion (or other extreme emotion) they feel is truly overlooking the effect they have on their kids.

My friends feel a little sorry for her, actually. Not so much to pity, but certainly enough to know what she’s turned her back on and missing. We don’t pity her, though. And I only say this from the anonymity of the internet.

Was my first time “special”?
No. As “The Sherminator” said in American Pie, “It was just my time.”

Would I have changed anything if I had the chance?
No. It doesn’t matter who I did it with, when, where or why. Hormones take over, the situation presents itself and you just say to yourself “Now? Oh… Uh-Now!” and you take everything with you into the situation : Knowledge, equipment, and emotions.

So what would I do with my kids?
The same things my parents did with me. They were honest with me answering every question I asked, told me both sides of the story, and as I grew older even told me “Don’t do what we did” (Got married and pregnant relatively young), “Have fun. You have your whole life ahead of you.” But they also knew I was informed and able to make my own decisions, and even asked if I was prepared. If I wasn’t, they’d ask if they could get me anything…
While I may ENCOURAGE my kids to have sex before marriage, I will not push them to do so.
While I may try and keep my kids from being virgins until they’re “old enough” (and that’s relative to each person-we have to recognize that), I’m not going to punish or not support them for things that already happened.

Of course this is my life. I know I’m not wrong.

Well, enough of spilling my guts about my life. How about them Leafs, huh?

[Wrath]

Here’s why I think a generic “rule” like waiting until you are married to have sex is silly…

I got married for the first time at 32.

Of course I had many sexual relationships before then. Had I waited I might have exploded. And I would never condemn my children for not retaining their virginity, whether to please themselves, someone else, or their religion.

For those that did wait for marriage, esp. those that married in their 30’s or beyond, I congratulate you. It was probably important to you that you did that, and honorable to give that gift.

But for my kids, I would rather they wait wait wait until they found an extraordinary person to marry, with whom they can share a lifetime together and raise children (if they wish). And I would never EVER deny them the pleasures of life during that search. If they denied it for themselves, as a gift to “the one”, well, a personal choice is something no one can ever fault you for; it is your life.

I think that the “wait until you are married” axiom pressures young adults too hard to marry early. Although many can and do find their SO early (one of my brothers is still married to his HS sweetheart), many more do not. I would hate for a child of mine to endure a lifetime of searching and missed opportunities for healthy and satisfying relationships, just because “I said so.”

I would even go so far as to say, practice makes perfect. I am thankful for my experiences before meeting my wife, as they have allowed me more freedom and creativity when it comes to sex, with knowledge about how to make us both happy in horizontal land (sometimes vertical, sometimes perpendicular ).

But that’s me. And I would never set forth limiting rules for anyone in my charge.

[cmkeller]

CheezedOff:

I’ve read a few posts here concerning Jewish Virgins and separate schools for the sexes. You really think separating the sexes keeps horny guys and gals from having sex together? A good buddy of mine went to a separate school and he and friends became experts at sneaking out. They were Virgins when they went in, but not when they came out.

Yes, but I’m willing to bet they weren’t Orthodox Jews, were they?

I agree that it takes more than just separate-sex schooling. Suffice it to say that there is much more that goes into imbuing children and teenagers with what Orthodox Judaism considers the proper attitude vis a vis relationships with the opposite sex, and by and large, it works.

Besides, have I not read somewhere about Jewish houses of, uh ‘ill repute?’

If you have, please tell me about them! I must bring my children to one so he gets plenty of experience before marriage and doesn’t end up with a screwed-up sex life like his parents, who were deprived of such a thing! :rolleyes:

Aside from their religion, it seems to me that most Jews I have encountered have the same urges as everyone else.

Of course, but why do you dismiss the religion as a factor? Good religious education and training (at least as far as Orthodox Jews are concerned) is very mich the difference between having urges and acting on them.

Isn’t there also something about the desire for a ‘shick-sa’? (Please, pardon my spelling! I know I spelled it wrong.) Meaning, the desire to have sex with someone not of the Jewish faith?

Not that I’m aware of. I mean, not to a greater degree than the sexual urge in general.

In sex, nothing can screw people up more than misapplied religion.

Misapplied hedonism can be just as dangerous.

Kimstu:

But Chaim, I may be misremembering from previous threads, but didn’t you mention at one point that you (or your wife, can’t remember which) were married already by the time you were out of your teens?

You remember correctly; my wife was ten days shy of her 19th birthday when we got engaged, and only a few months past it when we got married. However, while I will adress your later points, I should point out that when we’re talking about teenagers not having sex, we usually put the cutoff of that period of immaturity at their 18th birthday. My wife might have been under twenty, but I don’t think she’s in that category that is usually intended in discussions of what’s appropriate for “teenagers.”

I think that that’s an important thing to specify in such a discussion: keeping kids virgin till they’re married is quite a different proposition when you’ve got a shadchen (or a rabbi or even just the parents) encouraging them to marry shortly after adolescence, as opposed to expecting them to remain virgins well into their 20’s or 30’s.

While it’s true that Orthodox Jews are encouraged to get married pretty much as soon as they’re prepared to support a family, the search for one’s mate can take any length of time. The expectation that one will control one’s urges until marriage is the same for all.

It’s really not all that difficult, because social dating doesn’t exist in the Orthodox Jewish world. Casual friendships between members of the opposite sex, which lead to temptations of non-marital sex, just…aren’t there. It’s a lot easier than it sounds to one who hadn’t lived it.

Most people here would probably feel less disturbed about their teenagers having sex (with proper precautions) than about their teenagers getting married.

What can I say, I’m not most people on this board. That’s kind of what adds spice to Great Debates.

Chaim Mattis Keller

[Dangerosa]

I have two children, a boy and a girl, both very young now. Here is what I hope to instill in them:

If you choose to “save yourself for marriage” that is admirable and your choice.

If you choose to have sex before marriage, that is also your choice.

You should delay having sex as long as possible. There is a certain quality to the anticipation of sex that is worth hanging onto as long as possible. (After all, most of us remember being horny and making out in the back of a car for hours - that was fun - fustrating, but fun).

The longer you wait, the more emotionally and physically ready you will be for sex - and therefore the more satisfying you will find it - up to a point, where it becomes moot, but that point is sometime after you turn eighteen.

Don’t fool yourself - sex will change any relationship you are in - and not necessiarily for the better. Very few people are capable of meaningless sex.

Respect yourself, respect your partner, be responsible - more responsible than you think you need to be. In sex, there is no overkill when it comes to behaving responsibly. (i.e. use birth control, STD control, and have honest relationships)
Personally, I don’t think there is an “age” where people are ready. For one of my girlfriends, her sex life started at 13, and she is a happy, healthy adult in a stable healthy marriage. Although I think her active sex life in her teens made life harder for her, she survivied it and doesn’t regret it. Some teens may be in good stable relationships, and show the emotional maturity for sex at relatively young ages, others aren’t ready for sex at 29.

[Hazel]

Wow, some great posts here. I am particularly impressed with the thoughts of Reprise, Darqanelle, and Dangerosa.

I think Lee made a very good point. She said, “When I first got my period, my mom had a sex talk with me. I already knew the mechanics, this was about love, and responsibility and the difference between love making and fucking. During this she asked me not to have sex until I was 18, I think i was 11 at the time. I did as she wished and waited until I was 18 to have sex wiht a guy. Not becuase god said so, just because she thought it was a good idea and would appreciate it. It was not too difficult because I was not waiting until I got married, just until I was an adult. It is a lot easier to abide by that request because she did not pretend to have all the answers or threaten me or tell me horrible stories about ruining my life. Maybe if you want your kids to wait you should just ask them nicely.”

I think postponing sex until age 16, 17, or 18 makes a lot of sence; waiting until marriage does not. They’re not likely to marry before their mid-twenties; nor should they, I’d say. Why should anyone do without sex that long?

I used to often see ads (or public service announcements?) on TV, urging girls to steer clear of sex until marriage. They showed girls about 15 or 16 saying things along the lines of “I’ve got enough to handle in my life as it is; I’m not ready for sex.” If the message had been “wait until you’re older and more emotionally mature” or “if you don’t feel you’re ready, don’t let anyone pressure you into anything” they’d have been fine. But instead, it was “I’m waiting for marriage.” Which is, IMO, asking too much. Unless you want kids to marry at 17.

[JuanDeCuba]

17? I’ve made it to 20 so far without incident. Of course, thats due to equal parts of religious upbringing and and the complete unwillingness of any female to fornicate with me

[DarkPrince]

As a teen myself, it angers me that us “kids” should be thought of as so incompetent that we should be forcibly kept from having sex by our parents. Why should we be treated inferior to adults? Albeit we may be younger, and for the most part do not have as much experience(in sexual and non sexual matters) as adults, many of my friends act as, if not more, mature than their parents or other adults I know of. Leaving morals and religion aside, as they should not enter into a debate such as this (Who’s to say children should have the same morals as their parents? Times change.), there are only a few reasons I can see for teens not having sex; pregancy, diseases, and psychological damage.

Pregnancy and disease(most of them)can be easily prevented with use of condoms and/or the pill or other forms of birth control. In desperate situations an abortion can be performed to get rid of the unwanted child, or, in eleventh hour situations, the child can also be given up for adoption. People seem to think that as teens, we are too stupid or ignorant to use these methods, but don’t forget that you fool adults mess up shit just as much or maybe more often then we do. And as for pysch. damage, who’s to say we get anymore messed up than adults in matters like this?

[ssj_man2k]

Heh, nice post Dark Prince. I can sympathize with that, me only being 15.

I would also have to say is that the best thing to do is educate your kids. Telling them not to do something is just going to want to make them do it more. Educating them about it will help them do it safely and responsibly. Like my friend’s mom, she knows we’re going to smoke pot and get drunk, so she doesn’t try to restrict us. She just educates us, and is always there to help us.

The best thing you can do for you kid on any subject is educate them. Kids by nature are rebellious, so try to be more like the guru or wise man, not the police. Your kids will love you more for it.

[DarkPrince]

Exactly! Education is the key to it all. If you act like the gestapo to your kids, they will respond in kind. I know if my parents had been a bit more tolerant and taught me about things instead of just tellimg me, “It’s bad, don’t do that.”, I would have avoided an uncountable number of stupid things. (also, why the hell can’t we drink or smoke anyway? What’s up with that? 21? You can all blow me.) It’s like the phrase ‘Don’t look behind you!’, when you yell it, the first thing people will do is glance behind them. If you tell us not to do something, but don’t explain it any further, it will just make us curious. And it’s great to see us young 'uns here, getting am early start on fighting ignorance. Cecil is the shit!

[MandaJo]

DarkPrince:

Pregnancy and disease(most of them)can be easily prevented with use of condoms and/or the pill or other forms of birth control.

Except that accidents happen. And it is not uncommon for emotionally torn up teens to get accidently on-purpose “forget” a couple days of the pill.

In desperate situations an abortion can be performed to get rid of the unwanted child,

You have no idea how totally naive this makes you sound. Abortion is not retro-birth control. It is totally unacceptable to many, and even people who make the decision to abort almost inevitably suffer trama. It is not just another doctor’s appointment.

People seem to think that as teens, we are too stupid or ignorant to use these methods, but don’t forget that you fool adults mess up shit just as much or maybe more often then we do.

Except that an unplanned pregnancy is merely a life changing event for a commited couple with the resources to support a child. It is almost always a fucking tragedy for two kids.

And as for pysch. damage, who’s to say we get anymore messed up than adults in matters like this?

Well, the suicide rate is higher for teens–that alone suggests that teens tend to have fewer emotional reserves.

ssj_man2k:

Like my friend’s mom, she knows we’re going to smoke pot and get drunk,

I remember these parents! They drove me crazy. How the hell can she “know” that you are going to smoke pot and get drunk? Lots of kids do, but lots of kids don’t, and parents who expect this sort of thing cause it–kids tend to live up to expectations. I’ve known more than one kid to turn into a hellraiser because Daddy was a hellraiser and would suspect any son who didn’t get drunk, drive too fast, and have sex with anything he could talk into it of being a little on the lavender side.

Your kids will love you more for it.

Surely you don’t think a good parent makes decsions based on how it will effect their kid’s feelings towards them? This is not a button a parent should let their kids push.
Finally, I want to say that both of you are coming across as being terribly provincial. You know one type of kid–kids like you–and from that you are extrapolating all sorts of general principles about what is best for all kids and parents everywhere. No one here is going to convince you that you are not at the top of your form, decision-making wise, but may I suggest that you read and think as much as you post? You are both realitivly well spoken, which suggests a certain degree of intelligence, and you will find hte next few years alot easier if you are open to the possibility that you can learn something from the millinias of experience accumulated in the people around you: people on this thread aren’t saying what they are saying just cause they don’t like the idea of horny kids getting off.

[MandaJo]

Forgot one thing:

Leaving morals and religion aside, as they should not enter into a debate such as this (Who’s to say children should have the same morals as their parents? Times change.), there are only a few reasons I can see for teens not having sex; pregancy, diseases, and psychological damage.

As I said up above, if you are gonna make the argument that parents should not impose their morality on their children, you gotta either say they shouldn’t stop the 8 year old for exchanging blow jobs for PSX games or come up with a reason why imposing your morals on an 8 year old is ok but not on a 16 year old. If you say the difference is in the maturity of the child, well then, hell, you are just saying what the rest of us have been saying and drawing the line that marks “mature” in a slightly different place. And I daresay that people who have seen a variety of different ages are more qualified to judge where that line ought to be drawn than people who have only seen a few.

[Darqangelle]

ssj_man2k & DarkPrince both bring up a valid point that I perhaps only glazed over.

ONE of the main reasons why I say my parents were so cool is because they learned very early on that in order to get my attention, they had to talk to me as an equal. They responded to my concerns seriously and treated me as they would treat one of their friends when answering any of my questions or concerns.

If you treat your kids as adults when talking about adult situations, you’ll find you get quite a bit of information into them and respect out of them.

Answer their questions as you would have your questions answered to you. And this goes for all aspects of conversation:
Sex,
Relationships,
Religion,
Politics…

“Son, I have to be honest with you for a second. And I want you to listen to what I have to say, because I speak from personal experience. You have to be careful when you’re out there, and carry protection.”
“…from STDs?”
“No, from morons. Our country is being run by one right now…”

[reprise]

I’m glad to see that a few teenagers who are currently grappling with this issue have chosen to get involved in this thread.

One thing I would like every parent who has posted to ask themselves is if the ideal of maintaining virginity until a “certain” age or until marriage could not be realised, what would their child do.

Because I’m getting a bit tired of talking to teenagers both online and IRL who are risking pregnancy and/or disease because they are not in the financial position to take precautions against either and are too afraid to ask their parents for assistance because their parents would not “approve” of them being sexually active.

And we haven’t even defined virginity so far in this thread. On the whole, and with few exceptions, only penile penetration of a vagina carries with it the risk of pregnancy. So how do those people who tout the risk of pregancy as a reason for teenagers not “having sex” feel about teenagers engaging in oral or anal sex? When you have conversations with your teenagers about “why you should abstain”, do those conversations only refer to penetrative penile/vaginal sex?

If you are arguing “emotional maturity”, what is the particular line you believe your teenagers are not mature enough to cross? Is it tongue kissing, is it mutual masturbation, is it fellatio and cunnilingus? “Necking” and “sex” are such broad terms. What does “virginity” mean to you? Because your teenagers can most certainly be putting themselves at emotional risk and at risk of contracting STDs without a single penis ever penetrating a hymen.

[dangermom]

You can’t put “morality and religion aside” for more than a few minutes in this kind of talk. Our beliefs and principles make us who we are. Trying to pass them on to our kids is one of the major jobs of parenting, right up there with food and shelter and avoiding maiming injuries. Yes, the kids are free to accept, reject, or change these principles as they please (hopefully, as rational adults), but it’s our job to give them the starting point.

Manda JO said it pretty well, so I won’t go over it again, but there can be serious consequences to sex, many of which are all the more devastating when you’re 16. And as I said before, birth control and condoms don’t always work.

And the reason kids and teens shouldn’t drink or smoke, and we have laws to try to enforce that, is that those chemicals have a more serious effect on growing bodies. Smoking does damage to your DNA, and the earlier you start, the worse it is. Of course, I neither drink nor smoke, and I would prefer that no one else did either, so it’s easier for me to say.

[HomeSlice]

I am 19 and I find it funny when i tell some of my adult co-workers that i have never had sex and don’t plan to until i am married. They are always shocked because they figured that I get lots of tail because of my looks. After they tell me i am a “parent’s wet dream” and i should come by the house to meet their daughter.

[DarkPrince]

*Originally posted by genie *
And the reason kids and teens shouldn’t drink or smoke, and we have laws to try to enforce that, is that those chemicals have a more serious effect on growing bodies. Smoking does damage to your DNA, and the earlier you start, the worse it is. Of course, I neither drink nor smoke, and I would prefer that no one else did either, so it’s easier for me to say. **

If we made laws against everything that causes harm, DNA or otherwise, McDonalds would go out of business. How do we decide what should be legal or what is too dangerous. Are heart attacks due to obesity any better than lung cancer due to smoking?

[dangermom]

If you really want to have that discussion, you should start a new thread. My comment was meant as an aside.

[Helen_s_Eidolon]

I agree with what some of the teenagers have been saying, although not all. I know that if my parents were to put the proverbial foot down more often, we’d get along less well. They treat me like a thinking person, and that results in understanding.

Forbidding your children to have sex until their married is just silly. By the time you’d tell them that, it’s already not your decision to make.

Whether you instill that in them as a moral obligation, though, is different. I personally wouldn’t, but insted get them to wait until they want to, and are in a good relationahip. I have friends who have had sex at a young age without emotional attachment and it does mess up the way they view sex. On the other hand, a 17 or 18 year old in a long-term relationship having sex… I can’t see the problem with that. I can see problems with societal pressures and instincts for those who choose to wait.

[HomeSlice]

I think that if my mother told me right now, that i am not to have sex until marriage, i’d go out and find the first girl i could and do the nasty with her i nthe back of my Jeep. My parents never gave me a “sex talk.” I learned everything i need to know, and then some, on television (my real parents).