To start, here’s a repeat of what I posted in a recent Pit thread:
There is no reason for a legitimate business or charity to engage in phone solicitation. Period.
Plenty of entrepreneurs have made healthy profits without bothering anybody. If the only way you can get people to buy what you’re selling is to harass them, maybe you should sell something better. As for charitable organizations, if anyone gives a rat’s ass about your cause, you should be able to find better ways of making yourself known.
The true purposes of telemarketing are to pressure feeble-minded people into buying things they
don’t really want, and to make it easier to get away with fraud.
So am I right, or can anyone think of a legitimate reason to continue allowing phone solicitation?
You’re hitting me on a very, very sensitive nerve Robodude. My Mother passed away of Alzheimer’s in 1992. In the final 6 years of her life it seemed like every telemarketing freak in the world zoned in on her number and attempted to rob her. I would like to see boiler rooms intent on defrauding the elderly relentlessly hunted down and all perpetrators sentenced hard time.
This is a personal opionion.
Maybe we don’t have to ban phone spam. I saw a study somewhere showing that phone solicitation is becoming less effective. Apparently people are wising up to telemarketers. Can anybody confirm this?
Of course if telemarketers can hook that gullible one percent then it’s all worthwhile. When I first moved away from home, I could never quite bring myself to refuse that nice salesperson on the phone. I ended up with a whole bunch of useless stuff like credit card theft insurance and a subscription to the local newspaper I never read. Lately, if I don’t hang up on them right away I can be downright rude, especially when they catch me in the middle of dinner.
You might be able to find grounds for making it illegal in the possibility that a person might be put in a life-threatening situation by having their phone tied up at the wrong time.
Also, it’s illegal for telemarketers to call cel phones, because often the owner of the cel phone has to pay for incoming calls. Though any type of home phone service I can think of does not charge for incoming calls (a possible exception I just thought of will be below) you ARE paying for the right to use the phone to receive calls over that period of time, and telemarketers infringe upon that time.
I also remembered that if you hardly ever use your phone you can often get special rates, but you are limited to a certain number of calls (outgoing AND incoming, I believe) to qualify for this. In that situation, someone who can barely afford their phone and only have it for emergencies could have their bill raised if they were solicited by telemarketers repeatedly.
I have to agree with the disgust expressed towards telemarketers that pray on the elderly. My parents are constantly getting calls from telemarketers, and a few times my senile dad has been tricked into signing up for some phone service plan or paying for something we don’t need. One time I really chewed one out who kept calling back and asking for my Dad specifically about getting some kind of high interest credit card.
I believe the actual restriction is that it’s illegal to call numbers that result in the caller being charged (but I would welcome a cite either way). This includes toll-free 800/888/877 numbers, and might not include cell phones with free incoming calls.
But telemarketers avoid cell-phone prefixes because it’s impossible to know who has which plan, and no one wants to buy anything on their cell phone anyway.
No more than any other call. Or should it also be illegal for bill collectors, government officials, or your junior high school bully to call you, simply because you think your phone time is better spent on someone else?
Now, on to RoboDude’s OP: I agree that fraud should be illegal. Luckily, it already is.
Like junk mail, telemarketing is an annoyance. However, it’s an effective marketing technique, it isn’t inherently fraudulent or predatory, and it can be easily stopped, minimized, or at least avoided. I don’t see a reason to outlaw it.
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
I hate, hate, HATE @#$%ing telemarketers! I’m waiting for the politician who runs on a campaign of banning telemarketing and making it a capital offense.
If I were on a jury and the defendant was accused of torturing and murdering telemarketers because they kept calling him, I’d scream NOT GUILTY, and then take him out for a beer!
A person who sells a bag of leaves is considered a criminal, yet people who harass me during dinner, prime time, sex, etc. are considered honest working folk? What is wrong with this country?
What an objective and knowledgeable response. You sound like you’ve been in the industry!
Indeed, less than five hours ago I was sitting in front of a computer scrolling through lists like “John Smith, 555-1701, currently eating dinner” and “Susan Juarez, 555-7322, currently having sex”. As you might guess, I only clicked the Harass button for the ones who were involved in very demanding, personal activities.
:rolleyes: I feel like I’m still reading the Pit thread.
What about that ex-girlfriend you don’t really want to hear from, should we make it illegal for her to call?
What about the guy from the bank calling to tell you you’re overdrawn? I know I wouldn’t want to hear that.
Meanwhile, back in reality: You sound like you get a lot of calls. I guarantee that it’s because either you don’t know what to do about it, or you do know but you decide not to do it.
I called for a ban on the practice in the referenced Pit thread, so obviously I’m with the OP on this one. I would suggest that at the very least, the law should be modified so that only persons who agree in writing to permit telephone solicitation would be allowed to receive calls from telemarketers.
Re: Mr2001’s comparisons, the ex-girlfriend and bank manager calling about an overdraft are not pressuring one to buy something, so how do these compare in any way to telemarketing? Only in this: Harassment is illegal, and regardless of their reason for calling, they could be prosecuted for calling an excessive number of times.
From what I’ve read in these two threads, the majority of posters consider telemarketing to be a form of harassment. So why not ban it?
Telemarketers are not just one ex-girlfriend or bank manager, they are thousands of operations operated from many different locations. Many people are subjected to up to half a dozen calls a day, each from a different operation. The problem is not the individual calls; it’s the cumulative annoyance and offensiveness of this continual barrage of selling.
Under the present setup, saying the magic phrase “take me off your call list” does not necessarily take one off all call lists. Why is the consumer forced to turn down these calls on a case-by-case basis, and only by saying a specific set of words? The burden should be on the soliciter to contact only consumers who wanted the call, not on consumers to have to tediously turn down call after call, and only though use of a specific phrase.
Mr2001, in more than 100 posts to the two recent threads on this subject, only two posters (including yourself) have expressed anything other than a negative opinion of this marketing practice. Most apparently also percieve the practice as an invasion of privacy, and mostly if not wholly associated with fraud. If telemarketing is such a wonderful thing, why, sir, do you think so few on this board are in favor of it?
If you recieve a telephone solicitation, and request to be taken off the list, and follow it up in writing, and they call you again, they have to pay you a $10,000 fine. PA has this law for one.
Yes it is a pain to be called by these folks. But no more laws! Please! There are so many laws in this country now that regulate everything from who you can love in your own bedroom to how you handle your money to what you do with your own property. I say enough govenment control. Take care of it yourself. Hang up the phone!
No, but saying “Put me on your do not call list” usually does. Some insiders I know told me that by law, they must comply to this. And so far, it’s worked for me.
As far as being distracted by TMs during sex, I have to wonder what kind of lover you are if you answer the phone at all during sex. Let it ring.
Even though we had discussion about this in the Pit, and agreed to disagree on a few points, and I got pretty rude about it at times, this seriously cracked me up:
That’s a funny mental image. Just don’t be calling me while I’m watching Emergency!, ok?
I think telemarketing needs to be more tightly regulated, and if that can’t happen, outlawed. Here’s why:
Frequently, telemarketers do not know who they are speaking to or if they are mentally able to make the decisions the telemarketer is asking them to make. Two excellent examples are my mother in law and brother in law.
My mother in law is elderly, lonely, and often confused. When she used to get calls about winning a trip or some such thing, she really believed that she had won a prize. It is heartbreaking to have to explain to her that no, she isn’t going to Aruba this month. The call was actually to sell her a product, and when she ordered that product (that she didn’t want or need), she would be entered into a drawing or something like that. I object to telemarketers using words like “free” and “won” and “prize” with people who may not know that there is no such thing as a free lunch. My mother in law has led a sheltered life, and before the influx of a lot of these telemarketing calls, she would honestly believe that she’d won a prize. Just wrong.
My brother in law is retarded and has an I.Q. of about 70. He is an adult, but is incapable of understanding that you’re making a sales call. If you called him (for example) and said “How would you like some free magazines?” he would reply “Sure! Send 'em out!” Is that a good sale? Not to me. This person would not understand that they are not free, no matter how you explained it. He would gladly give you personal information over the phone. Fortunately, his calls are screened by the people who supervise his living quarters, so it’s not a problem for him. What about others like him who live on their own, though? In a perfect world, all people unable to think for themselves would have someone who screens their calls, but many do not.
My main problem is with marketing to people who may not be able (through age, mental illness, or language skills) to make the decision that’s best for them. I’ve heard of phone slammers who change your service if you simply say “yes” to the question “wouldn’t you like to save money on your long distance bill?” People have heard so much about fraud, many are afraid to talk to telemarketers at all, just in case.
Not all telemarketers are scammers or frauds, but it’s really not possible to know one from another, so it’s hard to know what to do.
One principle of telemarking is to give a pitch and close the sale and never take no for an answer. I’m never in favor of high pressure sales (from car dealers, telemarketers, or anyone else). High pressure sales tactics are designed to get you to do something that you would not likely do given an opportunity to step back and think about it. The problem with high pressure phone sales is that you may be selling something the person does not want or need, but lacks the courage, intelligence, or mental capacity to say no. To me, this is exploitation, not a case of “Oh, well- they they shouldn’t say yes.”
In the last telemarketing thread, much discussion was made about the “take me off your list” command. Understand that some people are not mentally capable of remembering to say something like this (elderly, mentally handicapped persons). Where do they fit into the package? Aren’t they frequently the ones who suffer when scammers are looking for victims?
Telemarketing is speech. Thus it is protected by the First Amendment. It is commercial speech, though, so it is subject to more regulations. One such regulation can be found in 47 C.F.R. 64.1200(e)(vi) (Code of Federal Regulations). Under this regulation, telemarketers must maintain a “Do not call” list. Saying “Take me off your list” has no legal effect. But saying “Put me on your do-not-call list.” prevents them from calling you for the next 10 years. Violations are actionable, and you get a cash award if you prove a violation. Just remember the magic words, folks.
I hate getting calls from telemarketers… however i dont think it should be totally illegal… however i do think they should make it so that they have to show up on caller id. I mean that it not only shows there number… but it shows the company name or something else that would mark them as telemarketers. Also they should revise the times they can call… i cant event count the times ive been woken up at 8 in the morning on a weekend when im trying to catch up on all the sleep i miss during the week… or interupted during dinner or a nap… and how about a standard opening line like hi, im a telemarketer; would you like to hear a sales pitch… as opposed to rambling on and on refusing to acknowledge and interuption because they know many people are conditioned not to hang up on people… as for dealing with them… well anytime someone calls my apartment and ask if Mr./Mrs. Drake (im the only one who lives there) i tell them they arent here… and if they just start with the pitch i repeat that im not interested until they get it and give up… maybe im just sick… but i get some sort of twisted satisfaction out of exchanges like the following…
me: Im not interested
them: shocked salesperson voice You dont want to save money…
me: no
them: a bit fustrated But you get …
me: no
them: about to cave, but dont want to give up but its a great deal…
me: no thanks, im not interested
them: defeated and annoyed thanks, have a nice day
… i think its the fact that i let them go through their whole sales pitch … but never show any interest in buying anything… i think they hate that… i mean i know im not going to buy anything… but i think they feel like if the guy doesnt hang up or something they gave a decent shot at a sale… plus they just wasted some extra energy… as for me … well im generally ignoring them while they talk as i continue to watch tv or whatever… if they woke me up however they do get hung up on… but yeah i wish i could get there numbers so i could call and annoy them… later…
Ummmm, it is. For the first two, the only legal, “official” communication is by certified mail. For the third, that’s called harrassment. The difference between the JH bully and the telemarketer is that telemarketers get paid.
I repeat what others have said in so many words: I pay for my telephone. The phone (since the demise of the rent-a-phone) was also paid for by me. The service is paid for by…guess who! If a telemarketer, a wrong number, a friend, my mother, drug-dealer, the Pope, the President, Strom Thurmond, Steven Tyler, Kurt Vonnegut, or a hooker deciding to give a freebie to the random number she dialed calls without my having said, “Call me sometime,” I have every right to immediately say, “Fuck off.” If a telemarketer calls me more than once (since my automatic response is "Put me on your do not call list and remove me from your active call list), rest assured that company will be taken to court. If a bill collector calls me at work after being told that calling my work number could cause problems at my job, that collection company will be taken to court.
Again, I pay for my telephone service. If telemarketers want free access to me, then they should take a page from the free internet providers’ book: you pay my phone bill and I have to put up with your advertisements. Otherwise, and I will say this after my aforementioned legal spiel, FUCK OFF!
I always thought that Freedom of Speech was with respect to We The People being able to speak out freely against our government. I don’t think that Freedom of Speech means that I can pick up my phone and start making calls at random wherein when the caller answers, I begin reading off the entire US tax code. Objectionable, sure. Pehaps even verging on pornographic, but how can I claim protection under Freedom of Speech? And then there is that *shouting *firein a crowded movie theater argument.
I can’t stand up right now and say outloud “Verizon (my employer) bites the Allmighty Big One” without expecting a severe reprimand. And if I did that in public, I’d probably be fired. Under no circumstances would I expect to be protected by the First Amendment.
I was watching Dateline last night, and Kentucky State Senator Julie Rose was talking about the same thing- claiming that people making harrassing phone calls are protected by the First Amendment, but I just couldn’t believe my ears. Lea Thompson presses her on the matter, with a clear look of disbelief in her face: “Do you really believe this is a freedom of speech issue?” Rose: “I truly do.”
There is a link to the story here, you may like the part about how the do not call lists are a huge farce, but I especially like the following part:
The actual dateline link has “[expletive]” but I’ve filled in the deleted parts since I was watching the program last night & heard this recorded exchange.
They do show up on my called ID- in a way. I get upwards of 20 calls at home during the day. When I get home, all 20 calls have registered on my caller ID as “unavailable”, or “out of area”. Suspiciously, nobody has left a message. When I see a call coming in like this, I refuse to answer. If it’s an urgent call or somebody that knows me, they should know enough to leave a message.
Today I have purchased a new service for my residential line called “Call Intercept”. Here is the deal, according to the sales link:
Mr2001 writes: Like junk mail, telemarketing is an annoyance. However, it’s an effective marketing technique, it isn’t inherently fraudulent or predatory, and it can be easily stopped, minimized, or at least avoided. I don’t see a reason to outlaw it.
Just because it is “effective” at creating profit for you, does not mean you ought to be allowed to intrude on persons’ privacy, or that the individuals should bear the burden of making you stop annoying them.
I guess I disagree mostly with your claim that it can be “easily stopped, minimized, or at least avoided.”
First of all, please do not equate stop, minimize, and avoid. And let me decide for myself what is easy. Perhaps you would like to define all of those terms?
Please specify exactly what I must do to stop any and all unwanted sales or solicitation calls.
Then when I do it, what exactly will be the effect?
How many times will I have to repeat this “easy” step?
You or your industry willing to make any kid of guarantee? If I follow your “easy” steps, how much $ you gonna send me for every unwanted solicitation call I get afterwards?
A modest proposal:
I think the burden should be on the caller to show either that the callee expressed a desire to receive such calls, or at the very least did not express a desire to not be so bothered.
-I suggest the maintenance of a national information bank where I can make one call or mailing to indicate my desire that I not be solicited at a specific number. It might be possible to set up different categories, say block all solicitations, or block only “for profit” callers.
-The bank should be maintained and paid for by the telemarketing industry (internalize your own damn costs).
-Anyone making a sales or solicitation call must register with the information bank, and agree to not call anyone who has requested to not be annoyed.
-Impose strict penalties for anyone who either fails to register, or calls numbers that expressed a desire for privacy.