Should viciously mocking the boss's wife be a firing offense?

Today’s story is about Geoff, about whom there are three important things to know. The third-most important is that he’s the general manager of a dealership in Memphis, and that his best friend, Stephen, is general sales manager. The second-most important is that Geoff is absolutely gorgeous, with the sort of beauty that makes straight women and gay men stare (and occasionally prompts gay women and straight men to question their sexuality). But the MOST important thing is that he’s head-over-heels in love with his wife, Donna, who by most people’s standards is outright ugly: pear-shaped, flat-chested, and horse-faced. But to Geoff none of that matters. To him, Donna is the incarnation of beauty and goodness, and sexy to boot. He feels sorry for people who don’t see how smart, witty, kind, and overall awesome she is.

As our story passes from exposition to narration, it’s Saturday evening, and Geoff and Donna are attending a wedding at a swanky hotel. Two of his employees happen to be there as well. One is LeMoyne, the top salesman on the new car side; he’s been tops in units out the door for 11 out of the last 12 months, maintains the highest profit margins of anyone in the dealership, and has an extensive and valuable client list. The other is Patrice, who works on the used car side and is, at best, adequate.

During the reception, Geoff decides to indulge in the one cigarette he allows himself a week. Stepping outside to do so, he’s just lit up when he hears two tipsy revellers talking around the corner.

“Oh my god, did you see Geoff’s wife?” the first person says. “Does that man not realize how good-looking he is? He could do so, so much better–”

“Maybe it’s charity work,” the second person replies. “Cause I wouldn’t let my dog fuck her. Unless I was about to put him down anyway.”

The first person laughs. “You are so bad, LeMoyne. Anyway, she must be great in bed. Bet she swallows–”

“I couldn’t get drunk enough to let that fugly face near my junk, Patrice. But they can’t be fucking anyway. Not unless he blindfolds himself–”

The conversation gets uglier from there; LeMoyne does most of the talking, while Patrice mostly laughs. Geoff lets the insults go on for the duration of his cigarette, then walks around the corner. As soon as they see him, the salespeople pale and try to apologize, but Geoff is too busy fighting the urge to beat the crap out of LeMoyne to listen. He tells them he’ll talk to them at work.

First thing Monday, Geoff calls Stephen into his office. He tells his old friend what happened and says he wants both LeMoyne and Patrice fired; he refuses to employ people who would humiliate his wife that way. Stephen listens to the story, then says, “Look, I’ll do whatever you want. But let me ask you this question: Does Donna know what happened?”

“Hell no,” Geoff says. “No reason to. It breaks her heart when idiots say things like that about her, and I refuse to make her unhappy for even half a second.”

“Okay,” Stephen replies. “So consider this. Donna hasn’t actually been hurt yet. She won’t be unless you do something you obviously don’t plan to do. So here’s what I’m thinking–”

I’ll stop there. In Stephen’s place, would you try to talk Geoff out of firing LeMoyne and Patrice? If yes, why? If not, what would you suggest instead?

Give them a chance to apologize beg for their jobs. For a business or any organization to function well, co-workers need to at least have a modicum of credibility and respect with each other, and with the supervisor. If the two employees can credibly apologize, explain why they were wrong, and convince Geoff that it will never happen again, then Geoff might keep them on. If they can’t, or if he is unable to forgive them and look past it, then he has no choice but to let them go. It may not have hurt his wife (yet), but it certainly hurt Geoff. That kind of disrespect is poison for business.

The two employees who Geoff wants fired seem pretty crude and not particularly intelligent. Unless the organization can’t live without their services why even spend a lot of time thinking this over? If the two people being described are too important to be let go, then this dealership has bigger problems than this one incident.

Here, there are strict criteria for firing people and you had better be able to check all the boxes; overhearing a private conversation isn’t one of them. Otherwise you WILL get an unfair dismissal suit, which you will lose, and substantial awards to the plaintiffs.

This is exactly my thinking.

The hypo doesn’t take place in England.

Tennessee is a right-to-work state, meaning people can be fired at will.

I disagree. Neither of the two expected to be overheard, and while lacking the “expectation of privacy” neither was publishing or broadcasting their opinions. It was a private conversation that, while crude and insulting, didn’t impact the business in any material way. Legally and morally there is no grounds to fire either of them.

I would be down with Geoff beating the shit out of LeMoyne at the time, however.

Well, aside from the elaborate set-up, I wouldn’t be listening to Stephen. An owner can choose to fire who they want. It doesn’t matter if the person in question is number 1 in their class or bottom of the barrel - people who say atrocious things like that are assholes, and I wouldn’t want assholes working for me. They already screwed up big time and let Geoff hear how terrible they are without meaning to. When will they do it in earshot of a customer? When will Geoff get slapped with the inevitable harrassment charge?

Not to mention it’s not conducive for a happy workplace to know some workers will be talking nasty shit behind each other’s backs. AND the fact that they have already hurt Geoff by insulting his wife - it doesn’t matter if she never gets hurt, damage is already done.

There’s no way in hell I’d be arguing from Stephen’s position. They’re assholes with no respect so out the door they go.

Pretty sure in Tennessee, Geoff could fire either of these guys even if he didn’t like the color of their shoes. As long as the basis isn’t discriminatory, fire away!!!

are you asking if ethics apply to auto salespeople?

Free healthcare AND you can’t be fired for being a jackass? I love the good ol’ USA but um, where can I apply for UK citizenship?

If the LeMoyne and Patrice are at a non-work function, they have the right to say whatever they like. Although I agree they are nasty people that need to stop gossiping, they were off the clock. They were not discussing confidential information or actual work, they were commenting (rudely) on someone else’s appearance.

I would use that as a point for talking Geoff out of firing them. I would suggest that he act as if their comments didn’t bother him at all. Obviously Geoff is happy with his wife and the opinions of coworkers shouldn’t matter to him. If anything, I would ask to speak to them alone-one on one. Geoff should explain how he was hurt by the comments and ask for an apology. And then drop it.

I kind of look at it like neither of the 2 expected anyone to find out what asshats they really are on the inside.

I will note that at the mechanic’s shop nearby they had a front desk guy responsible for bringing in the sales. He also spouted nasty shit about women all the time to the other mechanics in the place. The boss let him go because of it, but didn’t confront him directly. He simply said, “You’re not bringing in the sales we need” and got rid of the guy. I’m sure if he hadn’t already caused a problem with female customers overhearing, the boss wanted to get rid of him before that shoe dropped. Wives and glamorous looks not even involved.

If they were making it “rain” (e.g. top performers) I’d be pissed, but I would keep them and then simply not look the other way the next that they fucked up. If they were mediocre to poor employees, I’d street them for being mediocre to poor employees and for pissing me off, although I wouldn’t say that pissing me off was the reason.

If a similar incident occurred again, rainmakers or no, they’d get streeted. If they dissed my wife, they are almost certainly dissing me and that eventually leads to making comments to a customer or to me about ME.

There are two questions you ask when hiring and when firing: can the person do the job and can the person get along with the rest of the team. The former is much less important than the latter - you can train someone to do the job. But you can’t train them to not be a dick.

Those two are out on their ass and they deserve it, no matter what their sales are.

Geoff is not an automobile salesperson. He’s probably a former salesperson, but that’s not his job.

Also, I’m an ex-automobile salesperson myself, and it’s entirely possible to do that job while being ethical. Especially if you’re doing it as a career and rely on repeat business and referrals, as LeMoyne seems to do. If you expect your customers to come back and to refer others, you can’t lie to them.

Why not? Stephen is the GSM and Geoff’s best friend; Geoff surely values his opinion. And Stephen’s opinion is probably particularly important because he’s less emotional in this circumstance. Just as Geoff was wise not to make a decision while he was resisting the urge to kick the crap out of LeMoyne, he’d be wise to at least hear out a valued colleague and friend.

Geoff is not the owner. If I’d meant him to be seen as the owner of the dealership, I’d have said so. :smiley:

Workers are always talking nasty shit behind each others backs. Except perhaps in Narnia.

Arguing from Stephen’s position means “giving the advice you think Stephen should give,” not “arguing to retain LeMoyne and/or Patrice.”

They weren’t dicks to coworkers at work… They were being dicks to Geoff and Donna behind their backs, but that’s not the same thing.

Also, it’s possible for a dealership GM to rarely/never interact with his salespeople. I’ve worked at three dealerships, and even at the smallest I almost never had to talk to the GM. The sales managers, yes, and on a daily basis. The GM? Practically never.

Two different questions here. Would I, personally, fire LeMoyne? No. He was drunk, outside of work, in a context where drunkenness is acceptable, and had no reason to expect what he was saying to get to Geoff or Donna. That mitigates matters for me (though I would definitely give him some humiliation over it, and maybe let him quake in his boots for a bit).

On the other hand, would I fault Geoff if he did choose to fire him? No. I think it’s an unwise business decision, but it’s his business, and his decision to make.

Change the situation up a bit, and put the insults in the workplace, or where he knows that Geoff or Donna are present, and my opinion changes: That’s someone trying to commit suicide-by-boss, and I would oblige.

And I don’t really understand why he’s considering firing Patrice. It sounds to me like she’s mostly trying to talk LeMoyne down, not contributing to the insults. The worst she’s doing is laughing, but again, alcohol.

Your elaborate set up states that you wanted to hear one of two options out of Stephen’s mouth:

“Would you try to talk Geoff out of firing LeMoyne and Patrice? If yes, why?”
and
“If not, what would you suggest instead?” (the implied words here being “If not, what would you suggest instead of firing them?”)

Leaving no room for option 3 coming out of Stephen’s mouth, which is for him to say Geoff should simply fire them. So no, I would not be arguing from the available options you gave Stephen to argue from.

If you wanted a more open ended answer, you should have given us an open ended opportunity with less precise detail.