Should we make all kids go to Public schools?

[Urbanredneck]

@anomalous1

N
That is when it got worse. Luckily around the time I was a senior and had only 4 classes left so I could get the hell out of there early.

Best benefit of going to a public school is that I don’t have to give a shit about my grammar and punctuation, I always have something/someone else to blame!

Forgive me for jumping in here but can you tell me, what was the actual education like? For example did you learn algebra, history, and science? Did they have computers?

How much homework did the teachers assign?

Were the classes difficult?

And how about the fine arts? Did your school have things like choir, band, and school plays?

[Shodan]

@WillReadmore

From your cite:
“Studies of home schooling and socialization have the customary faults of research in a
very young field:** no guiding theory, inadequate experimental design, poorly defined
research questions, untried and weak measures, unorthodox treatment and presentation of
data, and conclusions based on subjective judgments**. Even a cursory look at the research
reveals that many studies are qualitative descriptions of so few participants that the
results cannot be generalized. Many are surveys that rely exclusively on parental reports
but offer no idea of how reliable those reports may be. Many test only home-schooled
children without comparing them to children attending conventional schools, making it
very difficult to know what the results might mean. Furthermore, as Ray and Wartes
(1991) pointed out, all home school research is correlational (because researchers have no
way to control the type of schooling children experience), samples are usually selfselected
(because researchers cannot require home schooling families to participate), and,
however carefully researchers try to match their home-schooled and traditionally
schooled groups, there are probably still important differences between the two.”

Do you have any hard evidence that home-schooled students are less well-socialized than other kinds?

You didn’t address that.

Regards,
Shodan

[Urbanredneck]

@DrDeth

You do know it is mostly illegal and rather hard to send your kids to a school outside their district?

And exactly what would this prove?

No, it is not hard. You simply move your family to an area served by the inner city school district and you enroll them in the local schools.

I dont know the whole country but I do know Kansas City Missouri. Yes, KCMO has some bad areas but one block away can be a very nice area.

However the KCMO schools are terrible. I know most of the people who live down there are childless or accept the fact they have to send their kids to a private school as just part of the cost of living down there.

And BTW, as I said before many families who do live down in KCMO and who cannot afford to move, often sneak their kids into a suburban district by giving a fake address.

[Urbanredneck]

@Ruken

People here, poor people, minorities, like the charters and vouchers. But I’m sure you know better what’s good for them.

I totally agree. I know they like them in Kansas City Missouri.

See how they are about to open an all Girl Charter School.

This is a school organized by the parents and community. Why would anyone have a problem with it?

[Bone]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Right: it’s desirable for the beneficiaries of white supremacy not to have to go to school with the victims of white supremacy. I get that. It also perpetuates white supremacy, which is reprehensible.

I super know what that sounds like: it sounds like our society is racist, but people don’t like talking about it, so the beneficiaries of racism like to say, “Guess what, YOU’RE the real racist!” when anyone points out what’s going on.

Just letting you know.

I think it’s easy to make this about race, but I don’t think it’s the most operative thing happening.

Imagine if you have a high school age child and you’re moving to a new area because of work and all else being equal, there are two places to choose to live - A and B. The public highschool that A is assigned to has test scores in the 90th percentile across the entire school, and has zero children on the free and reduced lunch program. The public highschool that B is assigned to has test scores in the 35th percentile, and has 80% of the children signed up for the free and reduced lunch program. To me, with those choices, I’m picking A. From what you said earlier, I can’t tell if you think that’s the wrong choice.

Now imagine if you already lived in the place that is assigned highschool B. Is moving across town to a place that got highschool A somehow wrong? I don’t think so. But you’re saying that someone who has the means to move to A shouldn’t do so, because of some reason I don’t understand.

[Ruken]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Cite?

They vote with their feet: http://www.dcpcsb.org/facts-and-figures-student-demographics
DC charters have a higher percentage of Black students and higher percentage of students on free/reduced lunch than DCPS.

The mayor they and I voted for, plus the majority of the council support the voucher program: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/dc-council-changes-course-supports-school-vouchers
Now I’m skeptical of vouchers. And this program is federally funded. I don’t know how they’d feel about using local dollars.

[Shodan]

@Bone

I think it’s easy to make this about race, but I don’t think it’s the most operative thing happening.

Imagine if you have a high school age child and you’re moving to a new area because of work and all else being equal, there are two places to choose to live - A and B. The public highschool that A is assigned to has test scores in the 90th percentile across the entire school, and has zero children on the free and reduced lunch program. The public highschool that B is assigned to has test scores in the 35th percentile, and has 80% of the children signed up for the free and reduced lunch program. To me, with those choices, I’m picking A. From what you said earlier, I can’t tell if you think that’s the wrong choice.

Now imagine if you already lived in the place that is assigned highschool B. Is moving across town to a place that got highschool A somehow wrong? I don’t think so. But you’re saying that someone who has the means to move to A shouldn’t do so, because of some reason I don’t understand.

It’s noblesse oblige.

If you put your child into a school with low test scores and high disciplinary problems, [list=A][li]Your child is going to bring the test averages up, and that makes the school look better []Your child is not going to act out and that makes the school look better []If your child does act out, and your child is white, he or she can be disciplined without people complaining about racism [*]The other students have the benefit of seeing what a normal student looks like and acts like, so they have a role model.[/list]Of course, your child has a bunch of role models for bad behavior, and the lesser attention available from the teachers who are busy trying to maintain order may affect your child’s performance, and your child may get away with things that might otherwise be subject to discipline (because the teachers are busy with worse behavior). [/li]
And your child has the benefits of diversity, where his or her experience is shaped by what he or she sees from the other students, how they act, how well they perform, compared to everybody else. Apparently seeing other students act out and under-perform leads to greater understanding, and prepares the student for the real world with realistic expectations.

And putting your children in a school with good scores and a higher level of order is white supremacy.

Regards,
Shodan

[octopus]

@Voyager

So a kid going to an integrated school is being victimized?
You know white kids get beat up by other white kids in white schools also.

Now some private schools encourage diversity, but some seem to exist to discourage it. One of the great things about the public schools in my town is the diversity there. I had no idea of the race and nationality of a lot of the kids my kids talked about until I met them. They are a lot better at this than I am, because I grew up in a world where a lot of bigotry was okay and pretty universal - and I grew up in the North, with mostly liberal parents.

Nice strawman.

I care about character and order at school. Not color. I don’t care if my kids are educated next to whomever if the environment is safe. What I won’t do, if I can help it, is live in an area that looks post apocalyptical or have my children go to a war zone.

[octopus]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Right: it’s desirable for the beneficiaries of white supremacy not to have to go to school with the victims of white supremacy. I get that. It also perpetuates white supremacy, which is reprehensible.

I super know what that sounds like: it sounds like our society is racist, but people don’t like talking about it, so the beneficiaries of racism like to say, “Guess what, YOU’RE the real racist!” when anyone points out what’s going on.

Just letting you know.

Being poor or a minority is no excuse for being poorly educated or low character. You know why everyone, regardless of color or hue or tone, leaves poor areas when they get a bit of money? Because the environment that a large amount of poor people create isn’t ideal.

[Urbanredneck]

Back to the OP.

I really have trouble believing the most wealthy and influential people in this country would send their kids to a public school. Would this also outlaw boarding schools? For example,Phillips Exeder was attended by Facebook’s founder.

Now I know in Finland private schools are outlawed. So does this mean even the countries leaders and wealthiest people send their kids to public schools? Some kids require a great deal of extra security.

Also are Finns allowed to send their kids to private boarding schools outside of Finland? I know many private boarding schools here in the USA have students from other countries.

[Johnny_Ace]

@Buck_Godot

True. I can certainly believe that there are some students that thrive under home schooling, but it requires a certain kind of student, a certain kind of parent, and a good curriculum. I think that home schoolers and their curriculum need to be carefully monitored to make sure that they are receiving at least as good an education as they could in a public school. If they are found to be wanting then I have no problem forcing the child to attend public school.

Agreed. Personally, I liken home schooling to a lawyer representing himself; not generally a good idea. Not to mention the lack of exposure to alternate viewpoints on the subject matter.

[Quartz]

@Barack_Obama

Teachers across the country are upset they’re wages are so low,

If their wages are that low, perhaps the teachers should find themselves better-paid jobs elsewhere? Then the people would have to hire new teachers at increased wages.

The people should also consider holding the principals of the school responsible.

[Johnny_Ace]

@Shodan

Do you have any hard evidence that home-schooled students are less well-socialized than other kinds?

You didn’t address that.

Regards,
Shodan

And you didn’t provide anything but highly questionable evidence. Address that.

[HurricaneDitka]

@Johnny_Ace

And you didn’t provide anything but highly questionable evidence. Address that.

I didn’t really look into his evidence much, but I would hope we could agree that even highly questionable evidence trumps no evidence.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Bone

I think it’s easy to make this about race, but I don’t think it’s the most operative thing happening.

I can speak to North Carolina, and to Buncombe County in particular–and here, it’s very clear. Mecklenburg schools were a national model of desegregation for years–until a white parent sued to end the desegregation models. According to a judge tasked with evaluating the situation,

“The most appropriate way for the Circuit to describe what is going on academically at CMS’s bottom ‘8’ high schools is academic genocide for the at-risk, low-income children.”

When Charlotte-Mecklenburg eliminated race as a factor in student assignment, it not only meant less diverse schools; it also created a feedback loop that made the problem worse. Families with the means—most often white families—started to move into whiter neighborhoods, where they knew their kids would go to whiter schools. As a result of the relationship between race and wealth, the social, political, and economic capital became ever more concentrated in a small number of very white neighborhoods.

@Bone

Now imagine if you already lived in the place that is assigned highschool B. Is moving across town to a place that got highschool A somehow wrong? I don’t think so. But you’re saying that someone who has the means to move to A shouldn’t do so, because of some reason I don’t understand.

In general, I think white, middle-class parents should err on the side of attending racially diverse schools. Certainly that’s one factor among many–but often what happens is that white parents, everything else equal, gravitate toward segregated schools. Or, as in Charlotte, they’re willing to have segregated schools if it means their kid gets to attend the magnet school they want, instead of a perfectly good alternate school.

Shodan, your “noblesse oblige” bullshit is beneath contempt, so that’s all I’ll say about that.

[psikeyhackr]

@WillReadmore

When our economy was more or less focused on agriculture it was reasonable for formalized education to end at 8th grade.

When we moved toward manufacturing, we found that to be inadequate. So, we made high school a requirement and provided public means to attain that.

Now, our economy is moving beyond manufacturing toward high tech, information, automation, etc., with change happening at an increasingly rapid rate, high school is just not enough. Other countries are recognizing this challenge, with Germany and others working to ensure that all those capable and interested can attend college without incurring the risks of debt.

We can’t afford to have kids not being well educated anymore.

It’s not a matter of what the kid thinks. It’s a matter of what we know.

So reading English literature is part of being well educated? No one asked me about The Mayor of Casterbridge when I worked for IBM.

Why not mandatory accounting so everyone could better serve their own economic interests? And enough about technology to not buy junk designed to become obsolete?

Sorry, I forgot. Humans exist to serve the economy. Gotta buy more powerful smartphones every 6 months.

[Kearsen]

@Buck_Godot

Thus massively increasing the stratification of society, as kids are divided at an early age into “Good” and “Why bother”, which then grow up into educated alphas who have only socialized with other alphas vs Gammas who have only socialized with other Gammas, for whom the only lesson they have learned is that they are not worth being taught. The great thing about a public education system is that it exposes children to all different types of people with different backgrounds, attitudes and life experiences.

At the cost of actually, you know, educating them? Blame for the failure of our education system belongs right smack dab at the feet of parents who are univolved in their kids lives.

Now, who primarily make up that group and in what way can we fix THAT?

[Johnny_Ace]

@HurricaneDitka

I didn’t really look into his evidence much, but I would hope we could agree that even highly questionable evidence trumps no evidence.

Guess what? We don’t agree. I know, big surprise. The absence of one in no way ameliorates the unsuitability of the other.

Of course, he’s also the person who claimed that simple denial without evidence (i.e., ‘No.’) is a valid argument. (Double standard, anyone?) He gets no points for cherry-picking any more than he does for other, shall we say, questionable, debate tactics.

[DavidwithanR]

I have a feeling that the argument about public vs private schools in the US is so difficult to make sense of because there is a great deal of nonsense in categories that any school system depends on, rendering the argument… well, not moot, but unsolvable.

When justice (every person being treated right) is not just neglected by a few but is stridently and proudly denounced by many including the most powerful, when injustice is (to some) a lauded government-funded institution rather than a disgrace, you’ve got a worse problem than which school to send your kids to.

[Kearsen]

@Johnny_Ace

Guess what? We don’t agree. I know, big surprise. The absence of one in no way ameliorates the unsuitability of the other.

Of course, he’s also the person who claimed that simple denial without evidence (i.e., ‘No.’) is a valid argument. (Double standard, anyone?) He gets no points for cherry-picking any more than he does for other, shall we say, questionable, debate tactics.

Those laughably questionable debate tactics, like providing a cite …? If you don’t agree, find an alternative cite.