Should we make all kids go to Public schools?

[Johnny_Ace]

@Kearsen

Those laughably questionable debate tactics, like providing a cite …? If you don’t agree, find an alternative cite.

The fact of making a cite doesn’t make that cite either true or applicable.

I don’t agree with it, and I provided my reasons. That doesn’t imply an obligation to cite otherwise.

[Kearsen]

@Johnny_Ace

The fact of making a cite doesn’t make that cite either true or applicable.

If it was clearly untrue, or remotely untrue, there would probably be a cite stating otherwise. But you can keep banging this drum and hope for that high pitched flute note comes out.

[Bone]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

I can speak to North Carolina, and to Buncombe County in particular–and here, it’s very clear. Mecklenburg schools were a national model of desegregation for years–until a white parent sued to end the desegregation models.

I’m not at all familiar with the history in North Carolina wrt schooling. I’m in the Bay Area in CA and it’s pretty well known which public schools are better than others, and a newcomer would quickly learn by the variance in housing prices. Regardless of race, I would expect all parents to try and access the very best schools they could afford. White parents and non-white parents alike. Does it make a difference to you in my scenario the family moving from B to A if the family is white, or if the family is black? It doesn’t to me.

In general, I think white, middle-class parents should err on the side of attending racially diverse schools. Certainly that’s one factor among many–but often what happens is that white parents, everything else equal, gravitate toward segregated schools.

I don’t share this calculus I suppose. Race is non-factor when selecting a school district/school/place to live. Safety, school quality rank far far above any criteria related to race. If the best school is primarily white students - that’s the school I want my kids to go to. If the best school is primarily black students, that’s the school I want my kids to go to. If the best school is primarily Indian students, that’s the school I want my kids to go to. I want them to have the best, I don’t want it to be fair, I want them to have advantages that other kids don’t so they can out compete them.

That only goes so far obviously - I want the laws to be fair and everyone playing by the same rules, but within those I want to eek out any advantage that is reasonable and fits within my worldview.

@Johnny_Ace

And you didn’t provide anything but highly questionable evidence. Address that.

In what way is it highly questionable or unsuitable? Without evidence to the contrary your position seems without merit.

@Whack-a-Mole

What should be disallowed is home schooling.

Why not go one step further and disallow home parenting too.

[Johnny_Ace]

I simply pointed out the questionability of the evidence provided, and the general lack of credibility of the source, for other posters. If you’re that interested in a cite, find it yourself.

[Johnny_Ace]

@Bone

In what way is it highly questionable or unsuitable? Without evidence to the contrary your position seems without merit.

Another poster quoted the report’s own statement that its methods were questionable. If you want, go back and read it for yourself.

[Ruken]

@Bone

Why not go one step further and disallow home parenting too.

The early progressive movement solution would be to jack up the minimum wage to keep the undesirables from finding employment. Then involuntarily sterilize them.

[Ruken]

See TC Leonard.

[Bone]

@Johnny_Ace

Another poster quoted the report’s own statement that its methods were questionable. If you want, go back and read it for yourself.

I’ve read it. It doesn’t seem you have. The linked paper describes many different studies, points to some general weaknesses in some of those studies, and strengths in other studies. Here are some favorable ones identified:

Fortunately, against a background of questionable research, a few solid studies stand
out—Rudner’s (1999) survey of more than 20,000 home-schooled children and their
families, Chatham-Carpenter’s (1994) analysis of home-schooled children’s social
networks, and Shyers’s (1992a, 1992b) research on social behavior. Shyers’s study,
especially, offers features worth emulating. He composed his two groups of children who
had always been either home schooled or traditionally schooled. He matched the
participants in each group on several relevant variables. He used widely known and
reliable tests. He tested for both positive and negative social behaviors. Information was
collected from both the children themselves and impartial observers. The behavioral
observation took place in two different situations and was videotaped for later analysis.
Every child’s behavior was rated by two independent observers. Observers were trained
carefully and were unaware of children’s group status. Statistical procedures were
orthodox and appropriate. Conclusions were objective, not subjective.

…

Although there are still far too many unanswered questions about home schooling and
socialization, some preliminary conclusions can be stated. Home-schooled children are
taking part in the daily routines of their communities. They are certainly not isolated; in
fact, they associate with—and feel close to—all sorts of people. Home schooling parents
can take much of the credit for this. For, with their children’s long-term social
development in mind, they actively encourage their children to take advantage of social
opportunities outside the family. Home-schooled children are acquiring the rules of
behavior and systems of beliefs and attitudes they need. They have good self-esteem and
are likely to display fewer behavior problems than do other children. They may be more
socially mature and have better leadership skills than other children as well. And they
appear to be functioning effectively as members of adult society.

I haven’t read the 50ish cited papers from this one, but it’s certainly evidence. Your response thus far is limited to saying it’s “out and out bullshit.” As I said - your position seems without merit.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Kearsen

At the cost of actually, you know, educating them? Blame for the failure of our education system belongs right smack dab at the feet of parents who are univolved in their kids lives.

Now, who primarily make up that group and in what way can we fix THAT?

Someone said about the NRA and the struggles to end gun violence, “Once we take the solution off the table, the problem becomes difficult to fix.” When you ask how we can fix this problem, maybe we shouldn’t take the solution off the table?

From the article I just linked to:

Some might wonder why a commitment to school desegregation matters. Can’t we just inject more resources into poor schools so that they have the opportunity to compete on an equal playing field? But research has long shown that singularly investing capital into a school in which the vast majority of students live in poverty has limited impact on achievement. The social science on the impact of desegregation is clear. Researchers have consistently found that students in integrated schools—irrespective of ethnicity, race, or social class—are more likely to make academic gains in mathematics, reading, and often science than they are in segregated ones. Students in integrated K-12 schools are more likely to both enroll in and graduate from college. While the most disadvantaged students—most often poor students of color—receive the most considerable academic benefits from attending diverse schools, research demonstrates that young people in general, regardless of their background, experience profound benefits from attending integrated schools. As the editors of “Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow” make clear, “Students who attend desegregated schools exhibit greater levels of intergroup friendships, demonstrate lower levels of racial fears and stereotypes, and experience less intergenerational perpetuation of racism and stereotypes across multiple institutional settings.”

The racial composition of schools affects the quality of the teachers, too. A 2009 study by Kirabo Jackson in the Journal of Labor Economics found that as student populations in Charlotte-Mecklenburg became increasingly black, the most qualified teachers transferred to other schools. In other words, the more a school resegregated, the less qualified the teachers became. Additionally, school segregation was deeply correlated with the likelihood of a student becoming entangled in the criminal-justice system. In Charlotte, the chances of black males coming into contact with the criminal-justice system increased with the resegregation of their high schools.

There is also an economic imperative to move toward integration. School desegregation is associated with higher graduation rates, greater employability, higher earnings, and decreased rates of incarceration. Higher earnings mean more tax revenue. Decreased incarceration means less money spent keeping people in prison. All of which means more money for localities.

We know what to do. But there’s a selfish motive for wealthy folks, primarily white folks, to not do the right thing. As long as our society makes it easy for folks to not do the right thing, we continue to doom another generation of black children to structural racism.

[suranyi]

@Johnny_Ace

So kids with far less opportunity to develop social skills have better social skills? That’s out-and-out bullshit on its face.

I have only one personal anecdote, however: My niece was homeschooled throughout her childhood, and she turned out to have better social skills than just about anyone I know. There was a large homeschooling community where she lived, and they often got together for projects, etc., maybe that’s part of it. But she is the most successful young person in this area I have ever met. They say Millennials have trouble getting jobs? People keep begging her to work for them.

She just got accepted into the Ph.D. math program at a top university, so her academic skills are pretty good too.

I was skeptical 20 something years ago when my sister said she was going to homeschool my niece. But it worked out great.

[Slash1972]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

We know what to do. But there’s a selfish motive for wealthy folks, primarily white folks, to not do the right thing. As long as our society makes it easy for folks to not do the right thing, we continue to doom another generation of black children to structural racism.

This is somewhat harsh. What is the right thing for me to do? Ensure my kids get the best education they can, or try to improve local schools by .0001 %?

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Slash1972

This is somewhat harsh. What is the right thing for me to do? Ensure my kids get the best education they can, or try to improve local schools by .0001 %?

Ensure that your kids grow up to make the world a good place for themselves and others. Academics is one piece of that, but not the only piece. You’re raising kids, you’re raising the future of humanity. So yeah, the right thing to do is to work to make it good for everyone.

Your responsibility is primarily, but not only, to your own kids.

As for “harsh,” I’d point to resegregated schools and the impoverished students left behind there. Nothing I say in this forum will possibly hold a candle to that harshness.

[Shodan]

I am not clear - is it white supremacy, or structural racism, to care more about your own children than those of strangers?

Regards,
Shodan

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Shodan

I am not clear

Agreed

• is it white supremacy, or structural racism, to care more about your own children than those of strangers?

no

[Kearsen]

@Johnny_Ace

Another poster quoted the report’s own statement that its methods were questionable. If you want, go back and read it for yourself.

If you read what was written, the methods weren’t questionable, the lack of information (due to the way the info was available) was in question.

[Bone]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

We know what to do. But there’s a selfish motive for wealthy folks, primarily white folks, to not do the right thing. As long as our society makes it easy for folks to not do the right thing, we continue to doom another generation of black children to structural racism.

What do you mean when you say that we know what to do? Does that include forcing affluent folks to send their kids to schools that are not the best performing?

I went to a public highschool in a district with several different high schools. Ours was probably the #2 in the local district at the time - not the best, but pretty good. The worst schools in the same district were awful. Inverse percentiles for test scores, higher incidence of violence, etc. They installed metal bars in front of vending machines to prevent people from running their cars into them to steal soda. I have sympathy for the kids in that school, but I wouldn’t want to trade places with them.

And do you feel the same towards a minority family who pulls their kids out of an underperforming school and places them in a higher performing school? Would it be okay for a minority family to leave behind other minorities in an effort to pursue a better education for their kids?

[Kearsen]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Ensure that your kids grow up to make the world a good place for themselves and others. Academics is one piece of that, but not the only piece. You’re raising kids, you’re raising the future of humanity. So yeah, the right thing to do is to work to make it good for everyone.

Your responsibility is primarily, but not only, to your own kids.

As for “harsh,” I’d point to resegregated schools and the impoverished students left behind there. Nothing I say in this forum will possibly hold a candle to that harshness.

Ok, I’ll ask you directly. Since there is a group, call them group A, that provide the majority of the distractions, violent behavior, and otherwise unproductive to learning issues, what to do with them? More money gonna do it?
It’s been tried, and failed.

The problem isn’t the kids, its the parents, lack of parental involvement, and oversight. (my opinion)

So , now what to do about it?

[anomalous1]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Right: it’s desirable for the beneficiaries of white supremacy not to have to go to school with the victims of white supremacy. I get that. It also perpetuates white supremacy, which is reprehensible.

I super know what that sounds like: it sounds like our society is racist, but people don’t like talking about it, so the beneficiaries of racism like to say, “Guess what, YOU’RE the real racist!” when anyone points out what’s going on.

Just letting you know.

That is more of the pointing the finger conspiratorial nonsense. Schools are bad for a variety of reasons, but when white kids do better it is their fault for contributing to white supremacy? Okay, gotcha.

Bye.

[anomalous1]

@Kearsen

Ok, I’ll ask you directly. Since there is a group, call them group A, that provide the majority of the distractions, violent behavior, and otherwise unproductive to learning issues, what to do with them? More money gonna do it?
It’s been tried, and failed.

The problem isn’t the kids, its the parents, lack of parental involvement, and oversight. (my opinion)

So , now what to do about it?

I agree and from what I’ve observed, it didn’t do a damn thing. I agree it has to do with parental involvement, I fail to discern any other reason.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Bone

What do you mean when you say that we know what to do? Does that include forcing affluent folks to send their kids to schools that are not the best performing?

“Best performing” is a single measure that’s often both highly precise and highly inaccurate. I do think that we ought to have significant incentives for sending kids to racially integrated schools, and significant disincentives for sending kids to racially segregated schools. Those disincentives should help fund the education for kids at integrated schools.

If a parent decides to put their kid in a segregated school, I think in a real way that act is a harmful act to their kid–and the research shows it harms other kids as well. I don’t call for jail time or anything for that decision, but I absolutely don’t think their decision should be subsidized via vouchers, charter schools, busing, etc.

What we know to do is, as a society, have racially integrated schools. That helps everyone. If a particular school is shitty, we need to get on that ASAP, figuring out what’s gone wrong.

In my community, what’s gone wrong is an atrocious history of redlining and “renovation” of black middle-class business districts and neighborhoods that’s led to some of the worst segregation in a metropolitan area in the South. We have a crazy racial achievement gap in our school, but it doesn’t appear to be due to the teachers: when we get African American kids coming from out-of-state, kids of college professors or other middle-class backgrounds, they tend to do just fine. It’s our local community.

Fortunately, our schools are among the most integrated parts of our community, so they’re not a real problem. But even here we have white flight: despite the fact that our district has some of the best test grades in the state, there’s a waiting list of parents trying to win the lottery to get into one of the whites-only charter schools.

Oh, excuse me, they’re not whites-only. Only they’re out in the rural parts of the county, and they don’t provide transportation or breakfast or lunch, so if you don’t have a car, or if you suffer from food insecurity, maybe they’re not the right choice for you? Kids in those schools regularly go years without having a single nonwhite classmate.

Yeah, you gotta make sure you’re raising your kid right; and there may indeed be some extreme circumstances where the evils of putting your kid in a racially segregated school is better than the alternative evils. But the evidence doesn’t bear out the claim that looking for better academics is at the root of the resegregation of American schools.