I have a hard time imagining that a person on a major dating site who presents one way but does not have corresponding genitals would have any kind of success. If they don’t reveal they are trans and they are passable to a degree that no one would realize they were trans, I would expect the non-assumed genitals to be an issue in every encounter. It seems like it would be a waste of time for all involved. Additionally, I would think the risk of harm would be much greater if it was revealed in person and the other person felt they were duped. I would expect someone who is conservative, small minded, a homophobe, etc. to react very poorly in that case.
That’s not the same thing if the dating site is geared more towards alternative lifestyles or the person reveals they are trans. In those cases, it’s reasonable to expect that some things might not be as expected and someone should ask if they really prefer one thing or another. But I would think that kind of stuff would come out in the normal conversation as they got to know each other if they met in that manner.
After a point it isn’t so much a preference as the default. What I don’t see is why the onus is on the huge majority to make it clear that they assume the default.
Unusual things are unusual.
I am not in the dating scene, a fact for which those who are should thank God on their knees, but if I were, I would not want to date [ul][li]someone who was in the federal witness protection program, []believed that Bernie Sanders was a radioactive space weasel in deep cover, or []suffered from uncontrolled explosive flatulence which was triggered by the sight of chinchillas.[/ul] I don’t have ready figures to hand, but I suspect these are preferences widely shared although not universal. Are these also things I would need to mention in my profile? [/li]
After all, I just want to meet people.
The onus is not on the huge majority, at least based on my experience. Only a relative few think it’s terribly important to avoid a single date with a trans person, based on conversations I’ve had. The rest may have a preference, but it’s not a huge deal for them if they go on a single date, or even a few dates, with someone who doesn’t meet their preferences.
So that relatives few, who think it’s oh so important to avoid even a single date with a trans person, are responsible for their preferences and meeting them. Not others.
Not everyone is absolutely married to their preferences. Like, I could see a woman thinking she could only be with a guy with a working penis. Then she meets someone who doesn’t have one, but he meets all the other criteria she is looking for in a mate. And then she realizes that sex toys exist. He can make her orgasm without a penis, whodathunkit! And he is an excellent kisser. He loves to snuggle. And she has to admit that these qualities make him a far better lover than any of the guys she has ever dated. So she decides that (for her) penises are overrated.
If you think guys only seek female mates based solely on them having a fuckable vagina, then you have pretty low expectations for your gender. There are men who are committed to female partners who can’t have penetrative vaginal intercourse due to injury or deformity. There are men who are asexual but not aromatic, so lack of a vagina ain’t no biggie. And then there are men who are open to “whatever” without even knowing they are. There is still a big stigma around being a person–especially a guy–who is open to whatever. But perhaps in the near future, that won’t be the case and guys won’t feel the need to proclaim their love for the pussy so loudly and shrilly.
I agree from a theoretical standpoint, but I don’t see it working out like that in the real world. I can’t imagine that too many people who meet someone on a major dating site like match.com would be this understanding and want to proceed with the date after finding out the genitals don’t match expectations. I would guess at least 9 out of 10 the dates to end pretty much right away.
Even for those guys you mention who might be looking for alternative matches, I can’t imagine they would have much success waiting so long into the dating process to find that kind of person. There would be so many mismatches on both sides that he would likely never find a match. A guy who’s asexual or can’t have penetrative sex is likely going to have major issues trying to find a match if he keeps that secret until they are on a date. I would expect that kind of guy to have much better success making that fact known very early in the process and well before the first date.
The difference between people like me and some other people is that I don’t wig out if I discover that the person I am dating doesn’t conform to, for lack of a better word, my requirements in a partner. I don’t get this absolute dread I see and hear.
I’d say 90+% of the “dating populace” is also heterosexual, but when I’ve been propositioned by a lesbian I don’t freak out, or say lesbians should let everyone around them know they’re lesbians, or that lesbians should be lesbians where they won’t be seen or heard by the rest of the population. I say “That’s not my preference” and get on with life.
I’m not seeking a trans man partner (heck, I’m not seeking any partner at the moment) but if I went on a couple dates with a guy and he then told me he’s a transman it would cause some re-evaluation of the relationship but I’m not going to freak out, act butt-hurt, flee in terror, or treat the person in a less than polite and courteous manner. I doubt I’d continue a romantic relationship, but as I said up thread who knows what would actually happen in real life? It’s not like I sought out someone disabled to marry yet I was married to someone disabled for 30 years.
So no, I don’t get the “trans panic”, I don’t see where people have to disclose what amounts to private medical information prior to bumping bits or exchanging body fluids, and even if a person revealed something that was a deal killer I wouldn’t feel betrayed or lied to because no, you don’t have to walk around telling everyone your medical history. What you’re saying is that trans people aren’t entitled to the same privacy the rest of us are. I don’t agree with that.
What’s this about “efficiency”? WTF? No, dating is NOT efficient. If you want efficiency like that hire a match-maker. Or if what you want is just to order up a partner to get you laid without doing the difficult bit of actually learning about another human being there are professionals who will try to fulfill your needs for cash (alas, may or may not be legal in your current jurisdiction, please check local laws).
WHY are people so freaked out at the idea that they MIGHT happen to run into someone that’s trans? What, do you think they’re going to give you cooties, or something?
Granted, once things start getting serious, and lean towards getting intimate, THEN I believe a person does indeed have a right to know. (Among other type of stuff) But so what? You find out a few dates later the person’s trans, you DO have the option of saying no. You’re not required to stay with them. (Or anyone else, for that matter, if something comes up that turns you off)
So what’s the big deal? For those whining about it being a “waste of time”, there are other reasons it could end up being a “waste of time”, due to any number of things. A first date isn’t a guarantee of finding your soulmate. Jesus Christ.
There is no answer to this other than transphobia. That’s pretty much the literal description of transphobia – fear. Being afraid of even the possibility of touching or kissing a trans person is about as pure a form of transphobia as exists.
When I was younger, I remember being “grossed out” by the thought of two men kissing, or kissing another man. Now I realize that this was cultural, not intrinsic or biological, at least for me. This was what I was taught. I have no desire to kiss a man, but seeing it no longer brings up any more feelings of revulsion than seeing a straight couple kiss. The thought of kissing a man no longer makes me feel any differently than the thought of kissing a woman I don’t find attractive.
I think attraction and lack of attraction is intrinsic and strongly influenced by biology. But I think feelings of disgust or revulsion about sexual orientation and gender identity is far more cultural, if not entirely cultural, rather than biological.
I think that if they find themselves attracted to somebody who turns out to have a penis, they’ll think that means that they’re gay. And it’s the trans person’s fault - the trans person made them gay. Entrapped them into being gay, even. With, presumably, malice aforethought.
I have let some of your other comments slide in the hope that this thread would be a good teaching opportunity (fighting ignorance and all that). In any event, we have consistently ruled that “tranny” is considered hate speech, so this is an official warning for hate speech.
You would be wise to heed the comments of others in this thread pointing out how offensive your comments are. While this thread is a good teaching opportunity, other threads will not be given such latitude.
Because, for the nth time, if it’s your criterion, then it’s your responsibility to specify it if you want to ensure that you never ever end up on a date with somebody who doesn’t qualify for it.
It doesn’t matter how much of a “default” you consider that criterion to be. What matters is how important it is to you. If it’s so important that you don’t even want to run the slight risk of ever even going on a first date with a transgender person, then it’s on you to make your priorities clear. It’s not the responsibility of a transgender person to try to magically guess where your statistically-predictable-but-obstinately-unstated preference for not dating a transgender person falls in your list of priorities.
Sure, maybe you’re somebody fanatically opposed to even going on a first date with a transgender person. But maybe you’re somebody who might end up falling in love with a transgender person if you happened to meet the right one. Or maybe you’re somebody who doesn’t want to date a transgender person but could still enjoy a fun platonic evening out with one. Maybe you’re somebody who doesn’t want to date a transgender person but could introduce them to somebody else who would. Maybe you’re actually one of the rare people who’s open to dating transgender from the get-go. It is stupid to expect other people to magically know how you feel if you’re refusing to tell them.
[QUOTE=Shodan]
I am not in the dating scene, a fact for which those who are should thank God on their knees, but if I were, I would not want to date [ul][li]someone who was in the federal witness protection program, []believed that Bernie Sanders was a radioactive space weasel in deep cover, or []suffered from uncontrolled explosive flatulence which was triggered by the sight of chinchillas.[/ul] I don’t have ready figures to hand, but I suspect these are preferences widely shared although not universal. Are these also things I would need to mention in my profile? [/li][/quote]
If you want to make absolutely definitely sure that nobody in those categories ever imagines that you might want to date them, then yes, you need to mention those dealbreakers in your profile. I really don’t get why you’re having such a hard time understanding this.
And, to hark back to the exchange beginning with Ambivalid’s post #259, cishet men seem to be much more vulnerable to this type of dysfunctional thinking than other groups of people. A cishet woman, for instance, may be a bit freaked out if a guy she goes on a date with reveals that he’s transgender, but I don’t think she’ll be as likely to jump to the conclusion that that somehow makes her gay and it’s all her date’s fault.
Of course, one of the things that toxic masculinity in culture is always doing is ensuring that men get an unrelenting message that they MUST NOT be gay because it’s UNMANLY to be gay, and if they experience any sexual attraction even remotely associated with a penis then THEY ARE GAY. None of those things happens to be true, but a whole lot of guys have internalized the message nonetheless.
Notice how no guys in this thread are demanding that women with broken or deformed vaginas announce this before the first date. Should a woman with labial hypertrophy put this in her profile too? Or is that information that would normally be revealed sometime before panties are set to drop but after the first cup of coffee?
I’ve lived long enough for my own reactions and views on this and related topics to have been challenged, and changed as the world changed in terms of accepted behaviours and attitudes.
I feel I can answer this honestly based on how I might have perceived the situation in the past:
in my case, it would have been a sexual insecurity thing; it would have been the idea that, after having feelings for someone I considered to be a woman*, but actually turned out to be a man*, that I might subsequently be (or be judged) less than 100% heterosexual, and that this would in some way diminish me, a red-blooded virile male.
Or to summarise:
“trans women are really still just men”*
“men who find them attractive are in some way homosexual”*
“homosexuality is bad”*
*I want to emphasise that the above paragraphs, and especially the asterisked parts, represent a past mindset that I have discarded as false and both insulting and injurious to others - that’s how I used to think - and I believe there is still some of this mindset in circulation.
I apologise if this post causes any bad feeling. That’s honestly how I used to think, and that was an accepted way to think in the past - back when it was also acceptable to scorn or shun, or even physically abuse people on all sorts of sexuality/gender-based rationales.
Plus – none of those three things are something you would disclose on your dating profile. All three are things that you would share once you are comfortable enough with the person you are dating, at which point they might end the relationship, or they might not.