No, according to the logic of the thread, I am obligated to disclose everything that might be a deal-breaker, even if almost everybody else also thinks it is a deal-breaker.
If, like 95+% of the populace, I am not interested in people who are X, it is apparently up to me to make that clear. Conversely, if I have some particular kink, everybody else should make it clear that they aren’t interested in that kink. The trouble being that the list of what might constitute X is rather long.
It would save time and web space, therefore, if those who fill some specialized niche make it clear that they are special, and thus the vast majority saves time and effort going on dates with people for whom there is no chance of a relationship, those in the niche don’t waste time going on dates with the same people, and especially those in the niche don’t take the risk of going on dates with people who might react violently. Everyone is happy; no one gets hurt.
As mentioned, I am not in the dating scene, but if I were and I posted that I like movies and long walks on the beach, I would still like to leave some room that isn’t taken up with an exhaustive list of things that hardly anybody else wants either.
You are not obligated to state that you aren’t interested in relationships with transgender folks, so long as you don’t freak the fuck out if you find out you went on a date with one. So you have 2 options:
go on dates. If it turns out that your date is transgender (which, as you pointed out, is super unlikely. We are talking like, 1 in 100 dates) then you can politely refuse a second date.
If going on even one date, with no sexual contact whatsoever, with a trans person is something that you are SO horrified by that you want to make absolutely sure it never happens, you’re welcome to disclose that.
Otherwise, just go on dates, and if you realize you’re not interested in one of your dates, don’t go on a second one.
Others in the thread may have suggested that, but I don’t think you should be obliged to disclose anything. I mean if, that thing you don’t disclose was “I get violent around trans people”, I don’t believe that’s a problem any online sating service should fee the need to cater to.
You can’t possibly know everything in advance, and you should not reasonably expect to. You may discover any number of things that you don’t like, and that’s OK.
Probably because for some people, going on even a short, no-physical-contact first date with a trans person IS that horrifying to them. But they realize that admitting this would out them as terrible bigots, so instead they try to make it seem like everyone is just as horrified by the idea as they are.
I would imagine in the real world, this happens so rarely to a cis person that it’s not even worth worrying about. If it’s a dealbreaker, it would be like many of the dealbreakers that come up in dating, such as having kids, appearance being much different than dating photos, photos being from years earlier, etc. Lots of these dealbreakers come up late in the dating cycle. Looking different than their photos often is only realized when the couple meets. If someone with young kids waits until the coffee date to reveal that, I would expect that to drastically change the trajectory of the relationship. Those kinds of late realizations happen a lot and I would suspect it’s just part of the process for online dating.
I would think the greater amount of lost time and problems would be the trans person who had genitals which didn’t match outward appearance. There’s a lot of theorizing in this thread, but it seems like the trans community could easily say how often it works out. If such people have lots of positive outcomes in these scenarios, then great! It would be great to hear about stories, blogs, articles where this kind of situation is discussed and what the real-world outcome is like. But just based on what I can infer about the world around me, I would think these kinds of situations would likely be non-productive and not generally lead to positive feelings about the experience from either person.
I think different folks are defining “deal-breaker” differently.
Let’s try a hypothetical. While I am definitely a cis het woman let’s propose a scenario where I, as a famous internet blogger, am involved in a contest of some sort where the first prize is a date with myself. Let us further imagine that the winner of that contest was a cis lesbian woman. Would I go on a date with that woman?
Yes… yes I would.
I would not have sex with that woman, but then I have never had sex with anyone on a first date in my life (or the second, or the third for that matter - if you can’t wait at least that long it’s a deal breaker for me, I really do want to get more than a first impression of you before the panties hit the floor) so that would be treating her as I would anyone else.
Would I go on a date with a trans man who won such a contest? Yes, yes I would with the same stipulations as above, that is, treating him as I have every other first date in my life.
Would I go on a date with a trans woman who won such a contest? Yes, yes I would with, again, the same stipulations as above.
Why would I do that when it’s a virtual certainty none of those three relationships are likely ever result in a second date, much less a third? Because I had made a commitment to date the winner of a contest, full stop.
I would, of course, be up front with all three that while we could certainly go out and enjoy a movie/dinner/zip line experience/swim with the sharks/other activity and get to know each other my relationship/sexual preferences do not line up with some of their characteristics. I actually enjoy spending time with different sorts of people, though, so I am not averse to engaging in non-sexual activity with them. It would then be up to those hypothetical people to choose whether or not to go on a date with me, to decide whether or not spending time with me would be a waste of THEIR time.
(On the other hand, I would never agree to marry the winner of such a contest - but then, I don’t agree to automatically marry anyone I date, either.)
Likewise, if I was dating a man and on the nth date he told me he was a trans man that will definitely impact the chances of the relationship progressing to sex, but assuming we’re already past the first date I wouldn’t see it as time “wasted” - anyone I date more than once is interesting to me on some level. I wouldn’t get angry. I wouldn’t feel deceived because I understand why that is not information a person would lead with when introduced to someone. I don’t expect trans people to provide me with that information prior to sex, therefore, I am not upset or disappointed when it is not provided prior to that point in time.
This is in contrast to you, Shodan, and some other members of this thread who are so averse to trans gender people that you want to guard against any chance whatsoever that you will ever be on a date with such a person. I wouldn’t put “cis people only” in my dating profile even though I doubt I’d want to have sex with a trans person (male or female) because it doesn’t matter that much to me, that I must guard against any possibility of such a thing ever taking place. Any more than I would get outraged because a lesbian says she likes me, or even frankly propositions me. It’s “thanks, it’s flattering you find me attractive, but no thanks, that’s not my cup of tea.”
It’s incorrect to label that as bigotry. I can just imagine asking a girl out and then the next question inquiring if she has a penis. You don’t have to worry about 2nd dates after that question. At least not in real life.
Do you think people meet over coffee and the second statement is “I have a Christmas tree tattooed on my dick, is that a turn-off?” A woman shows up to a date and the second thing she says is “my tits are fake because I had breast cancer - is that a dealkiller?”
I’ve been out of the dating game for a few decades, but from talking to folks these days who are actively dating (ages ranging from 22 to the 60’s) that’s no more how it works now than back when I was young.
Yes, information about genital anomalies should be mentioned before dropping trousers and dancing horizontally, THAT’s when it’s appropriate, not over dinner unless the dinner conversation already involves questions and statements about STD status, birth control, favorite brands of lube, and so forth. This notion that it would be the second question out of someone’s mouth directed at someone they just met is a ludicrous strawman.
As has been noted, the post you’re replying to is very obviously describing bigotry. If that description applies to you, then you’re a bigot. (For the record, I’m probably a bigot myself.)
And yes, if one is blazingly tactless, then one tends not to get second dates. Funny that. Of course there’s a subdebate here about whether it’s even possible to broach this subject tactfully, but that doesn’t change the fact that no duh, when you craft a situation that is deliberately tactless, the situation you craft will be tactless.
They aren’t trying to make it seem anything - a large majority of the populace doesn’t want to date a transgender person. If you want to call that “bigotry” or “being horrified”, knock yourself out.
And the ones who are really horrified are the ones the transgender people should avoid - they might respond with violence.
Nobody is taking issue with the fact that you don’t want to date a transgender person. Why is it the end of the world if you happen to go on one date with a person who you aren’t going to want to continue dating? If you had gone on a single date with a woman who you found attractive, but at the end of the date she told you, “There’s something you should know… I am transgender”, what would be the big freaking tragedy? All you have to do is not ask her out on a second date if you don’t want to.
I think you’re somehow managing to shift the goalposts at least twice in a single sentence.
The post you’re responding to is, explicitly, talking about the “horrified” sort, and how the horrified sort behave, and how the horrified sort my prefer to hide their bigotry by attempting to normalize the “horrified” state.
If that “vast majority of the populace” isn’t horrified but rather just has a taste for what they prefer, then the “horrified” ones are indeed trying to make it seem like that vast majority is as horrified as them, to put the responsibility on the trans people to protect the horrified people from exposure to the trans people.
If the vast majority is horrified, only then are you correct that the horrified people aren’t trying to make it seem anything.
One of these situations is where the goalpost is; you can’t have it both ways.
Sure. But not wanting to date or waste time on a date that is destined to go nowhere is not fear.
You realize that the issue may not have to do with genital abnormalities or whatever. Some folks prefer xx or xy. Who people want to date or mate with is a personal decision and doesn’t need anyone else’s approval.
If that’s bigotry then being bigoted is irrelevant. It’s like that cliche that everyone is racist to some degree. If that’s true, who cares?
For the first paragraph, okay, big deal. They might go out on a date with someone they’re not interested in. Happens every day.
For the second paragraph, yes - that’s why many trans folks won’t out themselves to strangers, even over the internet. Best to test the waters and go out a few times without intimate contact… And then before such contact, in a public place, disclose. That’s the lowest risk of violence or the kind of brutal outing that my acquaintance faced.
To put it another way – the issue under discussion is, “should you expect to know what genitals a person has BEFORE the first date?”
Dating is the process of learning more about a person so that you can decide if you want to be romantically involved. There are all sorts of things that could change your mind about continuing the process. You could learn that you disagree with the person politically; you could learn that they smell bad; you could learn that you guys just don’t click. I think you would agree that a dating profile shouldn’t be a bullet pointed list of every flaw that might be a turnoff to someone.
So why is a person’s transgender status such a big deal that you MUST know about it before the first date even occurs?
What is so bad about going on this first date, learning that there is no future here, and departing?
I’m not saying, “this is the best strategy for trans people in the dating scene”. Not at all. You’re probably right – from their end, going on dates with potentially violent potential transphobes could be dangerous, and probably isn’t a great idea. But that’s not what we are discussing. The question is, do you have a right to know what genitals a person has before you go on a date?
You say yes. My question to you is, why is this potential dealbreaker so much bigger of a deal for you than any other potential dealbreakers? I am not asking you not to make it a dealbreaker. I am not asking you to date transgender people, or saying you must be equally sexually attracted to a MTF trans person as you are to a cis woman. I am asking, why is THIS the one potential dealbreaker that you feel you MUST know about before a first date even occurs?