You know the score. As usual, there’ll be a promised inquiry, held in secret over a long period of time and then finally the US Army will announce it found itself innocent of any wrong-doing within their rules of engagement, and no - you can’t see them.
And then the same type of thing will happen again because of a blank refusal to admit, let alone learn from mistakes.
US justifies Afghan wedding bombing
The whole idea of letting an army investigate itself is pathetic.
Good evening, Aldebaran.
Agreed. Here’s the one we use. We’ve found it to be the most user-friendly and programmable. But if one doesn’t want to download an atomic clock, there’s always http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/
Nobody is making those claims. Someone made a rather firm assertion that Iraqis do NOT drink – ever. In spite of the fact that it was a slight hijack, since we’re on a message board dedicated to fighting ignorance, it was important to point out that that is not true. Some Iraqis drink. Some Iraqis drink at weddings. Although Iraq is no more a nation of drunks than the United States, according to the linked article, many are enjoying the freedom they now have since the fall of Saddam, to imbibe a little more openly and perhaps even “tie one on” from time to time. This fact is not intended to impugn the reputation of Iraqis or Muslims, it’s just a clarification to clear up a misunderstanding, that’s all.
I believe you that the more remote villages are less likely to be alcohol drinkers. It is highly unlikely that these victims were drinking at all, let alone drunk. But alcohol is occasionally drunk at weddings, as the linked article states (you might try reading it – it’s not at all about painting Iraqis as drunks – it’s about one of the ways they’re celebrating a tiny bit more freedom).
You are absolutely right. Only an ignorant moron would say something that stupid, no doubt about it.
Well, you’re right and you’re not. Yes, we have no fucking business there. Yes, the “war” part is supposed to be over. Yes, the U.S. has made plenty of mistakes – with horrifying outcomes, this massacre included. But there is still a “war” going on there. Insurgents are still battling the coalition troops and (supposedly) we’re trying to prevent civil war from breaking out there. I don’t like it any better than you do, please believe me. But it is the harsh reality right now, so it would behoove everyone to act in a more restrained manner until our military is out of their way (as we should be).
I disagree. Especially if they have children to protect. If I take my child to the zoo, I’m going to tell him that even though the big, furry lion looks all soft and nice, DO NOT STICK YOUR HAND IN THE LION’S CAGE TO PET HIM. Even though you know the gesture is harmless, the lion can’t be relied upon to, and he might bite your damn hand off. It would be WRONG of the lion to respond to a mere act of petting with such violent force as to chew off your entire arm, but the wrongness of it won’t necessarily stop him. The only way you have a chance of keeping your arm attached is to keep it close to your body. The lion still may jump out of his cage and come after you for no apparent reason, but at least you will have taken precautions to better prevent that possibility.
Again, yes and no. I don’t expect the Iraqis to know whether or not the invading army knows all their traditions. I do, however, expect that they understand that gunfire is one of those things that can be mistaken for agression. They know the military is there patrolling. They know they’re near a border crossing where smuggling takes place. They should know that it’s not always possible to distinguish between friendly fire and enemy fire. A gun going off is a gun going off. Don’t give the assholes invading your nation a reason to misinterpret you.
And before you go off on me, keep in mind that I’ve been to the Middle East. I’ve spent time in the desert (a full week in the Negev and a full week in the Sinai). I’ve been to the Syrian border. I’ve been at a “field school” in the middle of nowhere, where military jets fly overhead, so low you feel like you can reach up and touch them; where the sound and the shaking alone are enough to scare the crap out of you; where, when we wanted to go to the beach to celebrate 4th of July, we had to get permission from the guards at the camp first and we had to adhere to a curfew and curtail certain activities, even though they might have been traditional for us, “or they would not be responsible if the troops patrolling the area opened fire on us.” I swear to og that’s what we were told. I’ve even been in the middle of a declared war zone! WE TOOK PRECAUTIONS not to spook the dumbasses with the guns!
Indeed! You are absolutely right. But it’s not always easy to tell the difference between friendly fire and enemy fire!
You are 100% right! Hear! Hear!
May peace and tranquility come to that region quickly.
I don’t know yet if the dead were terrorist or innocent people at wedding…
Yet all those that think they were a group of people patrying and still blames them, sounds suspiciously similar to rape apologist that blame the woman because she dressed too sexy.
If those people weren’t criminals, if they were innocent, the guilt is entirely on the american side.
The public relations part is a fucking disaster. The SS is better regarded than the American Army.
It’s a real pity that the same army that help to liberated Paris and Rome is now bombing the hell out of village.
I should preview. Sorry I am a bit sleepy (plus this keyboard sucks).
I call Godwins law!!
Everybody go to other threads now–someone lock this one, please. 
Just so everyone knows that the US isn’t the only one who mistakes the actions of wedding participants. You would think the local police would know better, wouldn’t you, and not come charging in with tanks!?
Also, this was done in the middle of Sana’a, a city with a population of well over a million people. I don’t think the wedding participants were interested in the safety of others in the city.
Wedding Incident in Yemen
Another link to the same incident
Yemen times editorial on gunfire at weddings
This link also makes reference to gunfire. Note in the pictures that the locals are chewing Qat. It is a narcotic that is used by the majority of people in Yemen. It is outlawed in most places of the world except Yemen, England, and some places in Africa, AFAIK. Most the the Arabs I work with chew. Most of those we send out of the country on courses also drink when they are there. Many drink beer or stronger alcohol at home. And then again, many do not. Few follow the regular scheduled prayer times when they are not surrounded by their friends/family.
Marriage Traditions in Tihama
I include this link because co-workers were nearby when the shooting started.
http://www.gvnews.net/html/DailyNews/alert2373.html
[QUOTE=Shayna]
… and (supposedly) we’re trying to prevent civil war from breaking out there.[
[quote]
I disagree on with your idea that the US wants to “prevent an outbreak of civil war”. In my opinion they do everything they can to provoke it. But that is an other debate.
Taking your child to a wedding can hardly be compared with taking your child to a zoo with wild animals.
And no, you can not expect every Iraqy to reflect on it that gunfire which is a tradition at such festivities is now all of a sudden a threat to their lives.
You can also not expect that they even know what goes on outside their village. That they know about (supposed) smuggling activities, that they know about the presence of resistance fighters in the neighbourhood (or better said: that the US military dreams that they are there without having verification themselves on the issue).
They should not know anything aout all of that. If they do not know, it is not their fault at all.
Maybe they see now and then some plane or helicopter flying over. So what?
They go on with their lives as is their right to do. Those wo fly over must know that.
And I’m sorry, but you asking permission to have some celebration has nothing to do with Iraqis in their own nation who have:
This is also something the arrogant ignorant invaders “forget”. They blew up cars who didn’t stop when they shouted at the driver in English.
I think the main point of this whole discussion is that peopl who claim “they must this and they should have that” have absolutely no idea of how live is in such remote villages.
I do. I did a lot of fieldwork in several MENA nations. Coming from an ME background I still came in a completely unknown world .
Aldebaran, I never said Iraqis needed to get permission to live their lives exactly as they’d like. I was just illustrating to you that, unlike the ignorant Faux News reporter, I have been to the region, I have spent time in the open desert and seen how the native Arabs live (LIVED as they lived, actually, there are no hotels in the desert!), I have been in the open desert and know first hand that you cannot possibly not know that military planes are flying overhead. And I have been in an area where PRECAUTIONS HAD TO BE TAKEN SO WE DIDN’T GET SHOT, EVEN IF WE WEREN’T DOING ANYTHING WRONG.
I am not speaking as someone who has never been to the region and seen for myself how life is lived there. I LOVE the Middle East. I love the culture and the tradition and the sheer beauty and awe of it. My heart is aching right now for the pain and the sadness and the agony that so many Iraqi families are suffering right now for the BARBARIC behaviour of some of our troops.
I AM NOT BLAMING THE VICTIMS.
But I can also understand how this tragedy could have happened – IF it happened as we’re being told, that the military mistook celebratory fire for an agressive action. That’s all.
The waters get muddied a bit when the Coalition Provisional Authority issues statements like this.
People in that village were some of the ones living “normal” lives. For Iraqis that means celebrating weddings with gunfire, just like many Americans celebrate with fireworks, or 21-gun salutes at memorable occasions.
Ultimately this is just another consequence of using an army as a police force. They’re just not the same thing.
Enjoy,
Steven
I disagree with your idea that the US wants to “prevent an outbreak of civil war”. In my opinion they do everything they can to provoke it. But that is an other debate.
I think the main difficulty in this whole discussion is that people who claim “they must this and they should have that” reason from their own background and situation, and can’t imagine themselves how live goes its own way in remote villages in nations they also have no idea about.
I do. The woman who looked after me since day 1 of my life had parents who were born in such a village. (I grew up with listening to all her tribal/village wisdom and stories and superstitions 
).
Later I did a lot of fieldwork on such locations in the MENA region while I worked on a research for a thesis. With all my background as Arab/ME/Muslim/having a nanny who still has relatives in such a village, I still had the feeling to make contact with a world that stood apart from where I came from.
So yes…I can see how difficult it must be for foreigners living in a nation like the USA to form themselves an idea of what I talk about when I say: These people can in no way be held “responsible” for holding on to their traditoins in their own village in their own nation.
The same counts for people in Afghanistan who were also attacked and killed by the USA when celebrating a wedding according their traditions.
The US army at the very least should have learned something out of that.
Salaam. A
mmm… Don’t know why I hafve two posts here… This is the second time this happens today. I also seem to get logged out over and over again.
Maybe the moderator can bring some help here? Thank you.
Salaam. A
Shayna,
I know what you were saying. Yet you do not seem to know that people living in such villages possibly have no idea why now and then some of the helis or planes of the foreigners fly over.
They probalby also have no idea that the US “thinks” there are “smugglers and resistance” in that area. Why would they know about what the US military “thinks” (Obviously they don’t “think” much before shooting from a safe distance flattening a village.)
Why should any Iraqi need to know what the occupyers “think”. In a foreign language.
Salaam. A
The first step toward recovery is admitting you need help. 
Yes indeed, they were living normal lives. Note where I said that I’ve been to that region (even if not on that side of the Syrian border). I, too, have been smack in the middle of trying to live a “normal” life, yet being very aware that Men With Guns were never far away, and taking every precaution I could not to spook the guys who could kill me if they mistook my actions.
Hey, you’re not disagreeing with me. I have my doubts about the efficacy of their presence as well, hence, the use of parentheses around “supposedly.”
Since we have a language barrier, I’ll try one more time to try to express this…
I don’t think the Iraqis “should” or “must” do anything. It is their country and it is their tradition (even if I think it’s a stupid one). However, I think it would be wise of them to withhold that particular tradition, seeing as how it’s one that can easily be mistaken for agressive conduct.
Does that distinction make sense to you?
Ah, but I do know that people in those villages do not necessarily have access to communication from the rest of the world like those of us living in cities with radios and televisions and newspapers and internet connections. I know that. Been there, remember?
But even if they don’t know all the details about the reason behind the presence of foreign military, if we are to believe this part of the news coming out of this, the area is “constantly” patrolled, so they are aware of a foreign military presence. I had no idea the specific reason why war planes would periodically swoop over us in the Negev. But you can bet your ass that the mere knowing they were there at all would prevent me from shooting a gun into the air, because just like I don’t know what they’re doing, they don’t know what I’m doing, either, and if I fire a weapon for any reason whatsoever, I might expect to get shot back at.
That doesn’t mean it’s their fault their wives and children got slaughtered, (may they rest in peace).
You know, it occurs to me to wonder how many wedding and other celebrations have gone on since the inception of this invasion, where participants fired celebratory shots and the military didn’t shoot back, because, in fact, they do know about the tradition and they don’t make a habit of just shooting everything that shoots first. Yet in this case, for some reason, they did come back and return fire. So does that mean that they didn’t necessarily learn anything from Afghanistan or that they haven’t bothered to learn at all about the Iraqi tradition of celebratory fire? I don’t necessarily think so. There’s a reason this incident went down differently from perhaps others. It could be that the individuals on this particular patrol are animals and just wanted to show off their bravado. It could be that the guys who pulled the triggers had good reason to believe (even if it turns out those who called for it were wrong) that they were fighting insurgents. It could be that they really were returning heavy artillery fire. And it could be that it was all just some gigantic, horrific, inexcusable fucking mistake.
But I don’t think we can conclude that the U.S. hasn’t bothered to learn about the traditions of the area based on this one incident.
Yes. The whole debate about “it would have been more careful if they didn’t shoot in the air” makes sense to me.
Yet it is not the question here what makes sense to me. or that I think this is not the wisest among local traditions.
The whole quesiton is that it does not make sense to expect such a reasoning from Iraqi villagers in a desert location.
Salaam. A
You certainly have a point there.
No.
They seem to know enough about traditions and culture extremely well when it suits them to use it in abusing, torturing and humiliating the people they lock up.
So they also would be expected to know how to make the difference between some celebration fire and when someone tries to down a helicopter.
I’m sorry, but I have difficulties to imagine that any heli - even a civilian one - can come in urgent danger when some people on the ground fire a few rifles in the air. Even if deliberately aimed at a helicopter.
I also can not believe that flattening a village 5 hours after the report of a few rifles being fired can be classified as “self-defence.”
If that story is true then it seems to me that some idiots went on an ego trip.
Salaam. A
Fair enough. I disagree somewhat, but if that’s how you perceive them, I cannot say that you’re entirely wrong. However, I have every reason to believe that Iraqi villagers are pretty smart people. They’ve lived their whole lives in a territory that is frequently at unrest. They know about insurgents and they know about military jets patrolling them. They know enough to have foreign passports in case they need to escape (even if they were old documents they acquired in case they needed to escape Saddam, and had nothing to do with indicating they were enemy combatants, as some are trying to paint the evidence to point to). So I think it’s not unreasonable to expect that these villagers, in spite of their remote location, are pretty wise to the ways of the world, even if they’re not always up on the latest “news.”
That’s a sad fact, isn’t it? 
Well, maybe. Like we agreed, I imagine they’ve been able to distinquish the difference on many other occasions. So why not this one?
I’ve never been a pilot, so I can’t judge. But I do know that planes and helicopters get shot down all the time, so even if I can’t imagine it being dangerous, it certainly must be or it would never happen.
Agreed. Something definitely went terribly wrong here. I’d love to know the truth about what really happened and why. I suspect we never will, though. Dammit, I can’t wait for this shit to be over.
I don’t mean to imply that people living in a remote village are stupid idiots
It is only a very different world and mindset and way of life then what most people living in a country like the USA can imagine to exist.
Salaam. A