SnoopyFan, How Dare You?!

First of all, here’s the link and here’s the quote:

The topic is The Effects of High School Gossip.

As I said in my reply in GD, my childhood best friend and I were the victims of high school gossip and bullying at its worst. She because she was small, weak, handicapped and had a speech impediment; me because I was English in an American high school during America’s Bicentennial, lousy at conforming, but mostly, I think because I refused to end my friendship with her. She was a nice, warm, interesting person, and there was much more to her than the braces on her legs and on her teeth. The gossip and bullying which SnoopyFan so trivializes led to her having a nervous breakdown the summber between our sophomore and junior years. That left me at the bottom of the social pack and, in addition, dealing with having felt like I’d failed my best friend. I was a 14 year old girl.

Let me tell you about those years. As I said in GD, if I wasn’t careful, I would eat lunch or ride the bus home because no one would let me sit next to them. I could see empty seats, but if I sat in them, books etc. would mysteriously appear on them. I learned not to press the issue. My books would be hit out of my hands while I was walking down the hallway in school, sometimes by people I knew, sometimes by people I didn’t. I could not walk down a hallway without being insulted. In my senior year, I was routinely insulted by freshmen, kids I didn’t even know. My belongings were vandalized; in winter, I was a regular target of snow and ice balls, and then things got really nasty. Not content with making my life a living hell, some group of kids started making obscene phone calls to my family.

Before my friend had her nervous breakdown, kids would come to me and tell me they’d seen her crying because for them to show any kindness or friendship to her was very likely to result in them being insulted and harrassed. I had already learned not to cry in public, and my friend was worth the taunts. Staying her friend was, if you will, the Christian thing to do.

I do not recall everything I was called, and if I did, it’d be a long thread even by my standards. Among the things which I do were “F’ugly” or “Fucking ugly” and “Too ugly to live.” I’ve met some Dopers face-to-face; Iampunha, Guinastasia, or, since this is the third name, Opal Cat, would you be willing to testify to the truth of those insults? (I’m not forgetting you, Polycarp.)

During my junior year, two particularly telling things happened. I’m afraid I don’t remember what order they happened in, so they’re in order of magnitude. One, while I was waiting for one of the few people who did consider me a friend, someone pulled a knife on me and pointed it at me. I don’t know who it was; I didn’t look at his face. I just remember the knife. Two, during a social studies class, we were asked what we expected of high school. I was desperate and possibly a bit stupid. Mostly, I was desperate. That’s why I answered that, while I didn’t know what I did expect, I had not expected to be driven to the point of suicide. That made things worse.

I’ve made no secret of my struggle with depression here. I also admit that, as if the circumstances at school weren’t bad enough, I had exacerbating circumstances at home, including a family who were emotionally abusive. I got punished, not treated after that confession I mentioned. That is why this sentence got to me: “. Yes, people dole out a LOT of BS to people but ultimately if someone decides they can’t take it, that’s their decision. Many, many people have gone through hell (sheesh, just look at high school) and managed not to kill themselves.”

SnoopyFan, as a result of those experiences, it’s only in the past 5 years that I’ve actually started to grasp that I won’t be insulted and disliked on-sight or realized that I’m not actually so ugly my looks are frightening. I am one of the strongest, toughest individuals you will meet, especially when oppressed, yet kindness still confuses me, as one of our lurkers can attest. Take a human being, and tell them day in and day out how worthless, useless, hopeless they are. Tell them they are unworthy of any kindness, and that for them to be attracted to any human being is an insult, something which was done to me. Tell them they are unlikable, unlovable, less than human, and it will do severe, quite possibly even fatal damage.

I accept the responsibility for my part in what happened to me and my actions, which included 3 suicide attempts my junior year. I could quite literally see no way out of a lifetime of pain and, besides, everyone in my life told me I didn’t deserve to live anyway. If I had betrayed my best friend, things probably would have gone better. Would you have me betray my faith?

SnoopyFan, my beliefs and my understanding of Christ’s teachings do not allow me to tell you to go to hell. I do wish you could have an understanding of what it was like during those years and in the years afterwords not because I would like to hurt you, although I did when I started this post, but so you could see what it is you’re really talking about. I gather you live near a friend of mine and her husband. There was a time when I looked forward to the prospect of meeting you. Not right now.

I was, in effect, told I deserved to die, for being different, for being ugly, for not being like everybody else. I survived. I made a decision back in grade school not to return evil with evil, and to defend those who were on the receiving end of evil. That decision, that choice was one of the direct causes of what I went through in high school, and I have no doubt I would have led a much happier, possibly even more conventional life if I had chosen otherwise. I do not regret that choice. Despite all that damage, despite thinking for years that a chunk of my soul had been destroyed, I do not regret that choice and I will continue to defend those who are the victims of “gossip, malice, and slander” not to mention cruelty in general, and that includes the awful passive cruelty of those who stand by and allow such things to happen.

Respectfully,
CJ

siege - You started out a far better person than most, and your ordeals have probably only made you better yet - so never let anyone disparage you again!

Having said that, and while I understand your anger, I think SnoopyFan has a valid kernel of truth - most people who successfully commit suicide are, in fact, “waiting to happen”. Something, sometime, will make them go. There is probably little point in blaming any single person or incident fr a suicide.

The fact is, despite horrible circumstances, you chose to persevere rather than give up. You were not suicidal. Others unfortunately are.

You are a strong and wonderful person, and SnoopyFan is still at least partially correct. This is not contradictory.

Please remain the strong and wonderful person that you are!

Dan Abarbanel

Noone Special, in the fall of 1992, I was in a mental hospital responding to almost nothing. On my way to the hospital, I tried to throw myself out of a moving car twice. The second time I was hospitalized for depression, I was within moments of throwing myself from a bridge. This winter, if I had owned a gun, I would now be dead. With respect, I have indeed been suicidal, and as far as I’m concerned, I owe my survival to the grace of God and my body’s refusal to quit even when my mind has. I have prayed for death and mean it. Please do not disparage my experience by telling me I “was not suicidal.” As others can tell you, I was.

Oh, and for the record, the high school those events happened in was not some inner-city school or high-crime area. It was in a nice, safe, American small town.

CJ

First let me say that Siege I thought that was a great post, and I’m glad that you’re moving on with your life.

Then let me say that I see SnoopyFans point of view here. Let me explain. I didn’t have a terrible high school experience, but parts of it weren’t great. I can easily understand how people think the way that SnoopyFan does. I used to think like that, it’s only due to a few of my friends and some threads on this board that I realised that there is a difference between the general junk that most kids are put through and the geninuely life altering (threatening?) bulling that some others are put throught. If you’ve been (mildly) bullied then it’s easy to fall into the trap of thinking that’s the same level of bulling every one else was subjected to, and from there to jump to not understanding why you could get through it when others could not.

Hmmm, I’m rambling again. What I’m trying to say is that everyone is different, the trick is for us to support each other and to realise when people are vunerable. To do that we have to educate people like SnoopyFan (and. indeed, myself) that some people are forced to suicide because they truely don’t see any other way out. It’s not a choice they make, because in their mind there is no other option.

I thank you for your post, but I don’t think SnoopyFan deserves your anger so much as education into what it’s like to be in that situation. Hopefully this thread will go aways to providing that education.

SD

Who’s hoping that this post comes off as less rambling and incoherant than I think it is.

I do not want to comment on the environment at your high school - I did not grow up on the United States, so I have no idea what “normal” means in this context.

And I did not mean to disparage you - quite the opposite! Please accept my appologies if I came across in any other way.

I will refrain from continuing the discussion, in order to avoid the danger of hurting your feeling further. I am not trying to say or imply that you are over-sensitive or something - I realize now that I can never put myself in your shoes, and that I might therefore inadvertantly hurt you further. I presumed to understand you, and you have told me that I did not. I respect that. I was wrong. I am sorry.

As I have already said - I think you are a strong and wonderful person. I realize you have suffered for your goodness. I hope that, somehow, someday, this goodness shall be rewarded. I wish you good, honest, worthy friends, and a peace of mind.

All the best,

Dan Abarbanel

There are some of us who simply can’t fathom the level of emotional or mental pain that some others feel or have felt.

It doesn’t make us evil. (And I know you didn’t call any of us that.) While I may not ever be able to truly empathise, please know that I do sympathise. I care as much as I possibly can. But, without a frame of reference, I feel I will always miss certain points.

Liek the feeling of being a parent. I love kids. But, I’m not a parent. The level of involvement on a (let’s call it core level) core level is outside of my scope of understanding.
That being said, I would urge people to think about their words. If you don’t understand, don’t attack. Ask questions. Or, offer support.

Seige, you are a fantastic lady. In real life, not just on these boards. Personally, I think Snoopyfan just hasn’t ever had to see the “other side” of life. I could be totally wrong, though. :slight_smile:

Keep up the good work. You’ve educated me quite well in recent months.

Seige I know more about you then you know about me, simply because that is the way message boards operate. You are an active member while I am a mostly lurker…then I pop out and post all in one night.

I know you to be a courageous, compassionate person who is fast to stand up for injustices to others but just as fast to defend her own position and opinions.

That is a long way around saying I think you are a wonderful person who has obviously endured a lot of hardship and has become a better person because of it. I have to say what you endured as a teenager was wrong and cruel.

That said as much as I disagree with much of what SnoopyFan usually says, I have to agree with her on this point. I have spent since 1993 convincing myself that my husbands suicide was because he chose too not because I made him.

Many days the jury is still out, in my mind. (and i feel weird saying this because I know it is true but I don’t always want to believe it) The reason you are alive and he isn’t, is strength. It is the strength you have to be given shit after shit after shit and rise above it. As opposed to how you could have been…get shit after shit and let the third shit bury you.

I don’t need to tell you what close feels like, we both know. I waver there daily. But when the choice is made it is a choice (shit shit I’m crying this may make no sense.and I’m not apologising to the board) it is a crappy choice and a choice that is the most selfish choice in the world but it is a choice.

I would never condem someone for that choice. We all have our lives to control and sometimes that final act of control is all their is.

But you Seige are tougher and more caring then what it would ever take to make that choice. I think maybe Snoopy was pointing that out. I don’t think she was negating suicidal feelings (jeeeeeez I have had a metric ton of them) just the final act and the final act is selfish. Thats how deep sadness and depression can get, to the point of total selfishness. Selfishness is an emotion that is usualy trivailised doen to “he got more then me” but at its depths it means “I can’t hurt anymore…My pain is bigger then I can cope with no matter how much I mean to others”

When it gets to that level Snoopy is right even if that is not the way she meant it.

Seige I know more about you then you know about me, simply because that is the way message boards operate. You are an active member while I am a mostly lurker…then I pop out and post all in one night.

I know you to be a courageous, compassionate person who is fast to stand up for injustices to others but just as fast to defend her own position and opinions.

That is a long way around saying I think you are a wonderful person who has obviously endured a lot of hardship and has become a better person because of it. I have to say what you endured as a teenager was wrong and cruel.

That said as much as I disagree with much of what SnoopyFan usually says, I have to agree with her on this point. I have spent since 1993 convincing myself that my husbands suicide was because he chose too not because I made him.

Many days the jury is still out, in my mind. (and i feel weird saying this because I know it is true but I don’t always want to believe it) The reason you are alive and he isn’t, is strength. It is the strength you have to be given shit after shit after shit and rise above it. As opposed to how you could have been…get shit after shit and let the third shit bury you.

I don’t need to tell you what close feels like, we both know. I waver there daily. But when the choice is made it is a choice (shit shit I’m crying this may make no sense.and I’m not apologising to the board) it is a crappy choice and a choice that is the most selfish choice in the world but it is a choice.

I would never condem someone for that choice. We all have our lives to control and sometimes that final act of control is all their is.

But you Seige are tougher and more caring then what it would ever take to make that choice. I think maybe Snoopy was pointing that out. I don’t think she was negating suicidal feelings (jeeeeeez I have had a metric ton of them) just the final act and the final act is selfish. Thats how deep sadness and depression can get, to the point of total selfishness. Selfishness is an emotion that is usualy trivailised doen to “he got more then me” but at its depths it means “I can’t hurt anymore…My pain is bigger then I can cope with no matter how much I mean to others”

When it gets to that level Snoopy is right even if that is not the way she meant it.

Seige, I can’t begin to tell you how sorry I am for what you went through in high school.

I experienced similiar treatment for a short time in the sixth grade. I was told I smelled, I was ridiculed by all of my classmates (and some teachers, even), and came home to more emotional abuse.

Luckily, I was able to escape both the school and the abusive family member at the end of that year, and my life turned around. In the course of that year though, I contemplated suicide more than once. I realize that 12 years old is quite young to be entertaining such hopeless thoughts, to the point where someone might not take me seriously when I admit to having had them, but I assure you they were genuine.

That being said, like calm kiwi, I don’t normally agree with much SnoopyFan has to say, but she is speaking the truth here. No one can make you commit that final, selfish act. It is a choice. Your ability to not make that choice lies within your personal strength, as well as your support network.

I’ve talked two friends in the past “down from the ledge” and the kind of sheer terror I felt at the possibility that I would fail and therefore have their blood on my hands was almost more than I could bear. It took a bit of counseling and a lot of self reflection to realize that even if I had failed, that final decision was theirs and theirs alone.

The responsibility for the ultimate act of suicide lies with no one but the person ending their life. It is a choice no one can make for you and to even attempt to place the blame on anyone else would be intolerably cruel.

Oh, sheesh, Seige.

I am NOT trivializing what kids go through in school! I am not saying that gossip and the other stuff that kids put each other through isn’t horrible and doesn’t cause permanent scars. I went through a lot of stuff in school, too, and I know how devastating the effects can be.

I, too, am still recovering, just like you are. I was only suicidal once, and for a fleeting time, but I did seriously consider it. Why only once? I don’t know. Why was the time I considered it so brief? I don’t know, either. But had I gone through with it, although an event DID trigger me actually considering it, that particular event would have been only one factor out of a lifetime of incidents and situations.

All I am saying is that I don’t think that you can hold someone, or even a group of people, 100% responsible when someone commits suicide. I think suicide is caused by a number of factors, and not just one single incident. Even you admitted that you had other problems than just what you went through at school. Had you succeeded in killing yourself, would the kids at school been 100% to blame? No. Surely your family would have been to blame, too, no? What would the breakdown of blame have been? 60% school, 40% family? 50-50%? And then let’s factor in depression and all the symptoms that go with it (most of your depression, of course, was probably caused by what you were going through, I’m sure, so don’t think I’m trivializing that, either. I was clinically depressed my freshman year of college so I know it’s not something you can just “snap out of.”).

The point I was trying to make in the other thread is that suicide is too complex to say to someone “You drove them to kill themself.” There are just too many other things going on to say that the blood is on any one person’s hands.

Thank you for not Pitting me too horribly before giving me a chance to explain what I meant. Maybe you still don’t agree, but hopefully now at least you see that what you thought I said (I am under the impression that you thought I was saying that gossip and such is no big deal) and what I really was saying were two different things. I’m glad you survived your fiery furnace and are healing from it.

I’m going to be the voice of dissent here and agree somewhat with Siege. Maybe one can’t place total responsibility at the feet of someone else for another’s suicide, however, they can share some blame. The reason I think that’s more than possible can have a lot to do with conditioning, environment and upbringing. If one is taught to be downtrodden, have no self-esteem or respect and to expect that they don’t deserve anything but shit and the worst that life has to offer, when they’re finally able to see how the rest of the world operates, sometimes it’s more than they can deal with and they collapse.

I’m sure this is the way it is with lots of abused children (and just the opposite for those who overcome it, of course), as it has been with me. [Explanatory Hijack] My Hitler-esque mother has been the biggest cause of much of my dysfunction and subsequent suicide attempts and that’s all been largely in part due to my poor coping skills (that she never bothered to teach me – all the better to keep control my dears), my bewilderment that you do not HAVE to be treated like that or live in such a manner and disbelief that one’s very own flesh and blood parent could hate and wish harm upon you.

So, if I’d ever been successful in wanting to end my misery, good ol’ mom should certainly feel slightly responsible and examine her attitudes and behaviors. Not that she ever would, nor would she go beyond congratulating herself on how right she was on picking up on how weak, useless, disappointing and going to hell her daughter was. Regardless, it doesn’t matter now because the above scenario will never take place these days.

Why?

As of earlier this week, I finally decided to cut the unhealthy bitch out of my life because of her abuse. Her saying that we needed to get a blood test, to hopefully determine that I’m not really hers, was the final straw. She’s now made her own fucking bed, so she can lie in it. Hope it feels all warm and fuzzy to her, especially when she’ll be all alone. [/EH]

Therefore, I certainly see where Siege is coming from and think she’s at least partially on the money. The only other thing I have to add is… {{{hugs}}} to her. Keep up the good fight honey, 'cause we need more awesome people like you.

Hmm. While I can see SnoopyFan’s point that suicide cannot be laid at the feet of any one person or group of people, I’d like to point out that suicide is not really something that you choose. Certainly, it’s not a good choice. If all you can see is suffering - if you feel stupid, worthless, a total waste of resources - if you are truly, truly down in that pit, it can feel like suicide is the only option. Maybe you’re really an intelligent person, and a good person. Maybe you have friends and family that love you, and a life worth looking forward to. But you don’t see that side of the world. All you can see is the pain you live in. It’s not that you look around, see everything that life can offer, and reject it. You look around and see nothing but misery.

I guess… I don’t know where I’m going with this. But realize that it’s not just a matter of someone making a selfish choice, of someone turning their back on all the world can offer. For someone who’s really seriously considering suicide, all those fantastic things don’t even seem to exist. So don’t blame them, either.

ninjas, everything in your post indicated that suicide is, in fact, a choice.

Maybe I didn’t phrase it well. Let me try again.

Okay, I see where I went wrong. It is a choice. However, it’s not a choice between life as most people know it and death. It’s a choice between life with phenomenal depression and death. When you’re in normal psychological standing, and I hope all of you are, life is full of options. There’s a ton of choices. When you’re really, really fucking depressed, to the point where suicide becomes an option, you’re down to two. On one hand, you’ve got pain. Pain that seems endless, limitless, bottomless. On the other hand, you’ve got death. Can you see the difference? The frame of reference isn’t at all like the frame of reference a normal person might have. There’s no hope at all that things are going to get better. There’s nothing left to look forward to. And even if that’s not at all true, and I personally don’t ever think it is, that’s not what it feels like at the time. So while you are choosing, you’re not making the choice that it might seem like to another person. You’re not choosing between the possibilities of life and the nothingness of death. You’re choosing between the suffering of life and the nothingness of death.

Also, and I forgot to point this out, most people don’t go from normal to suicide on their own. There’s a chemical depression, there’s some sort of event that affects them to the point where they no longer feel that they can live. And that I don’t think they ever chose.

It’s natural to be angry at someone who commits suicide. I just don’t think they should be blamed for it. They didn’t mean to throw away everything they had. They just never knew they had it.

Look!Ninjas, you got it perfectly, especially with that last sentence. At the point of suicide, I have sincerely believed my death would ultimately release my family and those I love from the burden of my existence. The would mourn and be hurt, yes, but they would not have the burden of my continued existence. Yes, that is insane; that, to me, is what makes depression a mental illness: that it distorts one’s mindset to the point where one is no longer in touch with reality.

SnoopyFan, I read you as starting off by trivializing the effect of gossip in the thread which started this in GD. I wanted to make it clear to you that gossip is not something which only affects those some consider sinners and it is not trivial. I also do believe that when a school permits an environment as harsh as the one I endured to exist for over 20 years, which mine did until they were finally sued, they do bear some responsibility, as do individuals who willfully practice cruelty and, to a lesser extent, those who stand by and allow it to happen.

You’ve spoken about how evil you believe homosexuality is. I challenge you to do the same for gossip, to condemn cruelty as firmly as you condemn homosexuality, and to try to understand how much damage taunts and teasing can do. Whether a person is being insulted for being a “fag” or a “virgin”, and both, I’m told, are pretty common insults, although the former wasn’t around when I was in school, the damage is much the same, and it is real. Ask yourself how you would feel if you heard your best friend was teased to the point of tears in church and you couldn’t help her there because she went to a different one. She’s still a Christian. Not all of the outcasts I know are.

I’ll also make a confession. I didn’t hold back, except within the limits of what I am morally allowed to do. In other words, by my standards, this was not a mild Pitting, and I did have it in mind during Confession at church today.

There’s not a person on this board who doesn’t have hot button issues buried somewhere. For some, it’s homosexuality, for some it’s Bill Clinton, for some it’s Star Wars Episode 1 or the movie version of Starship Troupers. For me, it’s the effect of gossip and bullying. Longer ago than I care to remember, I couldn’t protect my best friend from that. I have finally learned, much like calm kiwi, that it wasn’t my fault, but I still haven’t given up the habit of trying to defend others from that. That probably makes me a fool, an idealist, or both, but I am obligated to try.

CJ

Seige you’re preaching to the choir here.

When did I ever say that it’s acceptable to harass someone?
When did I ever say gossip is okay?
When did I ever say that schools shouldn’t step in and try to stop bullying from happening?
When did I ever say that certain people deserve to be harassed?

Why are you trying to convince me that bullying is a bad thing when I’ve already friggin’ said it was?

You know, suicide IS selfish-but not in the way we normally think things are selfish.

It is selfish in that one is in so much pain that you literally cannot see anything beyond your own misery.

What if someone’s not driven to suicide because of harassment? What if they merely become emotionally stunted, and their social development is arrested?

They make it impossible for you to have friends, then they claim their harassment is justified because you have no friends, then you become incapable of being a friend, even outside of this environment, because you lost the ability to relate to people. There are other deaths besides the physical.

Snoopy Fan, the comment I cited at the top of this thread and your earlier comment in the GD Thread, "I think it’s kind of silly to assume that the kid will be harassed. Nothing has even happened yet and already there’s a lament? " are why I got the impression you were condoning bullying. If I was wrong, I apologize. I also wanted to make it clear to you and others that harrassment doesn’t just happen to homosexuals or other people who they single out as sinful.

The friend I described was one of the least sinful people I know by conservative or liberal standards. It didn’t stop people from making her life miserable. I have also spoken with some conservative Christians on-line who have told me that the homosexual young man who was kind and decent to me and my friend back in those awful days is more sinful than those who tormented me. I hope such people are in the minority within their form of Christianity, but I don’t know.

I was, in my last post, trying to be reasonable, to tell you why I reacted the way I did. And no, I hadn’t read you write “bullying is a bad thing” is a bad thing until your last post. In fact, in the post I cited at the top of this thread, it sounded to me like you were saying it isn’t such a bad thing. I got angry. I’ve already confessed that to you and to God. I have a habit of doing that when I see someone defending mistreating others, which is what I thought you were doing. I wanted to make it clear to you without hijacking the thread that it is such a bad thing and, in my mind, bullying is at least as sinful as anything two or more consenting adults can come up with to do with their bodies, and yes, that might even include adultery, which is one sin I usually rail against.

What Rilchiam described happened to me, although I didn’t quite lose the ability to be a friend. When I’m talking to people face-to-face, I’m lousy at asking questions about who they are because when I tried it I got shut down. I used to speak so quickly I was unintelligible because I expected people to walk away and dismiss what I was saying. To this day, at any kind of large gathering, I don’t know where to sit because I expect that no one will let me sit next to them, and this includes a group of warm, wonderful people I’ve been hanging out with for about 4 years now. As NoClueBoy pointed out, that can be tough to imagine unless you’ve endured it and mercifully have. Most of the time on this board I’m fighting my own ignorance. By giving firsthand testimony of what it’s like, I can, perhaps, fight someone else’s.

Respectfully,
CJ

I know this is more chatroom then board but HUGGGGGGGGGGGS Seige I can relate to what you are saying more then you know.

We all have touchpoints, moments that make us feel more raw. Bullying is atrocious it is up to us to KNOW how much our much being gone will affect those we love.

Somedays it seems like we would be doing them a favour by not being there. The reality is that is never true.

Suicide is like long lining…so many hooks are bound to make many catches. We feel we are hurting we need to solve that. In reality one persons suicide intensifies the hurt of everyone left behind.

True confession time. when my husband killed himself we had a 14 mth old son. I wanted to die more then anyone will ever know. But I didn’t want my child to be “that kid must have been so awful both his parents killed themselves”

Years later I look at that boy and wish he knew his dad, I wish his dad had been strong enough to still be here for him. I also wish I was strong enough to still not feel so affected by his death.

My sister-in-law years ago told me suicide was the “easy” way out. I screamed and cried and hated her for saying that. Years later I know she was right. It wasn’t easy for him to do it, but it did let him escape from coping.

I am not a “as seen on tv” advertisment, but if I could save one person from taking their own life I would, not for them, but for those who love them.