Me personally? I really don’t give a fuck but if he wants to be really public about it to raise awareness, fine. I am always happy when someone manages to discover something about themselves and do something about it, gay, straight or confused [as a friend of mine puts it. He came out when he was 20 back in 1980 and it was tough being a small town guy and gay.] I have always been supportive of any of my friends sexuality and I really have issues with trying to understand why anybodies sexuality other than mine and my husbands impacts my marriage.
I once went with my dad to visit a school friend of his who’d become a woman. I remember being thoroughly unimpressed by this tweed skirted, flat brown shoed person. At the age of maybe 10 or so I guess I had imagined (and was hoping for) someone dramatic with pink mini skirts and bleached blonde hair :D.
http://www.theparisreview.org/interviews/1251/the-art-of-the-essay-no-2-jan-morris Here she is!
I’m going to post this in every IMHO thread. It’s so easy and clearly shows I’m better.
Oops I forgot. Intolerance is supposed to be tolerated.
I have to say, Jenner going public with this has been very helpful in outing a lot of horrible, horrible people that I want nothing to do with. And I would not have known without this. So that’s a help.
Also, I’m a bit shocked that the whole thing has left me thinking marginally better of Kin and Kanye. Can’t wrap your head around gender disphoria when Kanye West can? Maybe it’s time for some soul-searching.
A few years ago I read The Emperor of All Maladies, a comprehensive history of humanity’s struggle with cancer (a great book, BTW). In it, I recall the author explaining that it’s only in the past couple of decades that the social stigma against cancer patients has started to fade. Further back in time, if you were diagnosed with cancer you did not spread that information around, lest you be ostracized. I dare say the status quo is better these days: if you are diagnosed with cancer, you can share the news with friends and family and count on their support as you deal with the intractably difficult aspects of your condition. It has become normal and acceptable to talk about it in the open, and cancer sufferers aren’t maligned or ostracized (much) anymore.
Homosexuality has moved in the same direction, in part because gay and lesbian celebrities have made it a point to publicly come out. When Ellen DeGeneres came out, Dan Savage rightly criticized the “isn’t she courageous” attitude espoused by some people (DeGeneres was risking relatively little compared to, say, a gay teen coming out in rural Oklahoma), but her public coming out surely served to help normalize homosexuality. Likewise, I think Jenner’s publicizing of his transition has great value for all of the unfamous people facing the same struggle in their own life, in that it helps normalize it so that there isn’t quite so much social stigma attached to it. Maybe now when some scared high-school kid tries to explain to his parents about how he feels like a girl on the inside and wants help, they’re a little less likely to react with total unfamiliarity or rejection.
So you can call him an attention whore or say he’s pimping some yet-to-be-named future reality show if you want, but the bottom line is that by transitioning publicly, he’s done a public service and nudged society in the direction of “better.”
I agree. My first reaction was an instant Kardashian-inspired recoil. I knew he was a part of that family, but since I avoid celebrity news, other than that, hadn’t given him much thought since his picture was on my Wheaties boxes, as a kid.
Thanks to this thread, I watched the interview and I learned something. And then I was inspired to watch Lady Valor: The Kristin Beck Story, and I learned even more. While I’ve been on board with gay rights for a very long time, transgenderism is something I knew nothing about and didn’t understand.
So in my opinion, brave people like Bruce and Kristin have done exactly what they set out to do: educate and enlighten. Bless the “firsts”, in any movement. It takes incredible bravery and strength of will.
Well put.
On one hand, he’s part of that whole distasteful Kardashian group which annoy me to no end. On the other, I feel people who have gender identity issues should be given a lot of support and help.
I can’t think off the top of my head a bigger transgender celebrity. We’ve got Laverne Cox, Chaz Bono, Lana Wachowski, this model from like a year ago that I remember reading about and…some other people I’m surely forgetting. But we don’t usually follow their personal lives from week to week. Plus, I think Bruce is taking his time transitioning. I only found out about Cox after her show got famous. I knew a bit about Bono and Wachowski but we didn’t get a whole series looking at their transformation, I only remember the before and after. Like it or not, Jenner is probably the biggest name to transition we’ve had in a while and wields enormous power on how such issues will be shaped in the public eye. So for that reason, I support his transitioning in full view of public scrutiny. I’m sure he’s used to enough mocking from the show that he, more than many of these other people, could probably handle it better. Plus, like he said during the interview, he’s got a lot of money and support and is fortunate to be able to fund it unlike people who do it alone and poor
E! will probably do a whole series on this, or have this be a major focus of the Kardashian show. Its been proven that people are less fearful and hateful of gays after they talk to one or see them as ordinary people. Bruce is no ordinary person but I think seeing the process will be a huge eye opener and definitely will change some perspectives of how transgendered people are perceived for the better
I’m stealing the hell out of that.
Is it weird I want Una to weigh in on this?
Since this is IMHO, I’ll just add my opinion. I see an attitude expressed by some here that people who struggle with gender issues should keep it to themselves and not parade it in front of others. I can see their point. Nobody wants to be bombarded about an issue that they personally are not interested in. However, unfortunately this issue does have repercussions in how transgendered people are treated in society. Again, the issue is as simple as which bathroom they can use and who they can marry (until marriage equality is passed in all states). The more public figures who come forward and tell their stories publically, the more people will be able to tell their stories privately and the more people will be able to understand a little more. As with many issues, the more information is out there, the better.
I find that every additional interview I see or article I read helps my understanding a little more. As somebody who has never personally dealt with this issue, I have admitted before that I have trouble with treating prepubescent transgender children with hormones; while it makes a future transition easier the Sawyer interview did point out that many children briefly wonder if they are transgendered. It is the persistent, unchanging knowledge that they are a different gender than their physical appearance that makes somebody transgender. In addition, I will admit that I had concern in the past about allowing transgendered people to use the bathrooms of their assigned gender. Like many women, I had the kneejerk response of “I don’t want a man in the woman’s bathroom” and it took a post by Una here to make me realize that a transwoman is much more worried about what I would think of her using the woman’s bathroom than I am worried about her being there. All she wants is to be accepted as female.
As far as Jenner’s story goes, I think that many do tune in for the spectacle and he certainly was aware of that but he would have been (and has recently been) hounded no end regardless and this way he got to tell his story on his own terms. I also think that while many people think he would have it easier transitioning since he has money and a supportive family, in many ways he has it harder. I can’t imagine how difficult it would be to be held up as the perfect image of masculinity and to still feel female inside. In addition, I think it may be harder to transition as somebody who is attracted to women; in our society, heterosexual relationships are still the “norm” and as evidenced here, it may be easier for some people to wrap their heads around gender-transitioning to what appears to be a more heteronormative situation than for somebody who presents as heterosexual to transition to one who presents as homosexual.
What really touched me was the fact that Jenner was on hormones for 5 years in the 1980s. Nobody takes hormones for 5 years and goes through electrolysis without some significant gender dysphoria. The interview pretty much skated around what happened but it was interesting that the stop in the transitioning seemed to coincide with his marriage to Kris Jenner. It just seems so sad that somebody would be going through all that transitioning involves only to conclude that it is too difficult and to decide to life unhappily for another 30 years before finding the courage to try again.
As far as seeing Jenner appear as a woman or giving the audience a female name, I wanted it as much as anybody but I understand that it is purely my own prurient interest and I have no right to this information. If Jenner decides to share his story, then I have the right to watch and if I don’t care about it then I have the right not to watch. I just hope that some of the people who do tune in from prurient interest alone might gain a little more understanding. FWIW, I think Sawyer did a great job in the time she had of explaining the difference between gender identity and sexual orientation and I do think that every time a celebrity (or pseudocelebrity) comes forward as transgender, there are going to be people who tune in because of the fame and just maybe a few more people will get a little closer to understanding this issue.
Again, JMHO, but after reading this thread I’m glad Jenner did the interview because I do think it will help the understanding of what it means to be transgender.
Leaffan, I just want to be another voice wishing you well. Hang in there.
To tell the truth when I hear of a man becoming transgender my first thought is:
“Nuts!”
But he’s had his kids already so maybe they aren’t as important to him anymore.
But looking at it from another angle I’m not really sure how news worthy it is. The thing is when people get old it starts to get hard to tell the men and women apart if it weren’t for grooming and fashion choices. That just happens whether you want it to or not. Becoming transgender is almost redundant. And you’d hate to be the one to point out if a man has become bosomy where he wasn’t before because that’s one cup size they don’t want to know.
Perhaps the true heroes are those that can grow old naturally and admit to all the weird things happening to their bodies. That’s the scary stuff.
Again, everybody seems to be focusing on surgery. Being transgender doesn’t depend on whether or not you have surgery. It’s about how you see yourself and how society sees you. Whether or not Jenner ever has sexual reassignment surgery is moot. The truth is that he does not identify as an effeminate man but as a woman. Being transgender is not redundant if people see him as male and surgery may not matter if people relate to him as female.
His kids aren’t important to him anymore because he’s waited sixty five freaking years to transition and do something for himself? What??
It matters to me because I grew up with Jenner on every box of Wheaties. All the kids were told to “Eat Your Wheaties” and grow up to be just like him. I mean, he was iconic to Wheaties and power like Popeye was to spinach. This is heartbreaking IMHO. But, more than that, it is puzzling to me if he felt THAT uncomfortable in a man’s body, how could he fake it and excel at it? Have you ever tried to do something you hate? He should have been a depressed recluse, not a public figure. Why would he strive to be such a super athlete? None of this makes any sense. I’m sorry, but I need a lot of time to accept this. The whole world is turning upside down.
Since we’re talking about someone that had his Adam’s Apple shaved and is on nad reducing hormones it’s gone beyond worrying about making an appointment at the barber or hairdresser.
If that’s a response to my last post I think you got the wrong “they.”
I have an intuitive problem with transsexual issues because my own identity isn’t focused on such things and it seems like people are trying to ram the old sexual stereotypes down everyone’s throat. I have one daughter that is a quasi-tomboy and another that would wear nothing but pastel princess outfits every day if we let her. I don’t think of either one of them as being more female than the other nor do I think that about my mother who really doesn’t like women that much or my female friends who like to hunt, fish AND get dolled up depending on the occasion.
I have never been especially masculine and, while I like being a male, I am fairly certain that I could adjust quickly if you put me in a female body as long as I didn’t have to have sex with any men (as I understand it, sexual orientation and gender issues are separate). I was the lone male with three female roommates in college and we all shared bathrooms. It was never an issue and not something I ever thought about unless they were hogging the thing when I really had to go. It makes no difference in my mind if the same thing applies to public bathrooms and certainly not something to use to establish a personal identity. I will use a female bathroom in a second if it is free and I need to like I do at work all the time.
Doesn’t a lot of transgender rhetoric go into direct opposition with feminist ideology? A female firefighter or fighter pilot is no less of a woman to me just because she pursues something that isn’t popular with most women. It can be quite hot as a matter of fact. I have known women that could beat me in a fight any day, some that chewed tobacco, a few with mustaches and every other stereotypical male trait there is. It doesn’t really make any difference to me. They are all just idiosyncratic individuals.
Why are people fixated on transgender issues so focused on superficial details like dress and bathroom accommodations rather than anything truly substantial? Women and men each have greatly overlapping characteristics especially at the individual level so it seems unnecessary to pick out a few culturally transient traits and declare that switching those will fix everything.
I don’t know why you are taking such an obnoxious tone with me when all I’ve said is I’m doing my best to understand this condition as fully and completely as I can. I’ve always been a full and complete LGBQT rights supporter, I am only seeking understanding here. I don’t know who you are quoting in the above post but it sure as fuck isn’t me.