Just how the fuck is this a Pit thread (except for the gratuituous profanity)?
Take it over to GD.
Really? Who do we have representing the conservatives, the “Usual Suspects”, as coined by elucidator?
milroyj and Brutus: Two guys who would support Bush even if he were a Nazi.
Scylla: A helluva writer who suffers from a certain inability to concede when he’s wrong.
Beagle: Everything he posts in support of Bush gets savaged.
Anyone I missed? I’ll tell you what, with that contingent being the standard bearers, it’s no wonder that this is a left-leaning board. It’s a losing proposition from any angle. As soon as someone raises a discussion it’s bleated out with the sounds of liberals whining about “cronyism” and Ol’ Boy Networks, whereas someone like me is increasingly leery of popping up into political discussions because I know the moment I appear I’ll be hammered down with the rest. Frankly, I don’t have the stomach for that crap anymore. You can debate Scylla about Bush’s Guard record until you’re blue in the face and make it a big beatdown (which it is), but I’d just like to have a reasonable discussion for once. Is that possible? Not while Bush is being compared favorably with a Nazi it can’t.
It never ceases to amuse me how often I’m misjudged. I am an admitted conservative, but I am not now, nor have I ever been, a Republican. I will not be voting for Bush in November, and despite my total disdain for President Clinton, I voted for him in 1996. I object to the ban on gay marriage, I object to drug enforcement, and I object to the war in Iraq, admittedly after the fact.
I also object to people making someone out to be something that they are not. Bush is no more a Nazi than I am. He thinks he is doing the right thing. That he may be wrong in your opinion does not necessarily make it so, and come November the electorate will either affirm or condemn your opinion.
Truthfully? You did it by being correct about a single issue. The war. You hammered away at it before it started, you pounded some more after it started, and you were vindicated by the result. It’s a rather Pyrrhic victory, for certain, but the fact is that any time one tries to raise an issue the war comes up. It’s true. The never-ending assault about the war and how it confirmed the evilness that is George W. Bush has had an astounding effect on this board. Want proof? Search for some of my old stuff. See how I went from being one of Bush’s most ardent supporters to where I am today.
Follow that up with the whole “stole the election” thing that’s still going on years later and anyone who reads the SDMB will immediately know they have friends here.
Compared to Europe, sure. But we’re not talking about Europe. We’re talking about political ideologies in the United States.
Anyway, I guess I should have expected this when I posted what I did, so the least I can do is try to stand up for what I said and explain where I’m coming from. I guess the rolleyes weren’t such a good idea either, but it’s done.
So, those are my thoughts. I’m prepared to discuss them rationally, but like I said above, I don’t have the stomach for a protracted flame war over them.
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Although I’ve gotten a raise, and ‘taxes have been lowered’, my buying power has decreased (ie it’s both less than the rate of inflation). I go out less, buy less because I have less discretionary income. The cost of gas for my car has increased and fluxuates quite a bit; I used to do a whole lotta weekend day trips, can’t really afford it anymore.
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Health insurance for myself and family has skyrocketed, making it more risky for me to seek other employment.
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My employment - I try to help ex offenders find jobs post incarceration. 3 years ago, most found employment pretty quickly (within a few weeks), and most were able to find jobs that would sustain them financially. Now, I have friends w/college degrees who are having serious difficulty finding jobs. Manufacturing jobs in particular have been disappearing at a rapid rate - my local area has seen a decrease in manufacturing jobs of over 1000 in the past couple months.
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Due to my employment, I also keep track of the Selective Service issue. (ie the draft registration). Recently, the number of new enlistments into both the National Guard and the military directly has decreased. The troops overseas include both National Guard and the regular milatary, and are deployed for significant amounts of time. My “cube” is next to the “cube” of the vet rep. His folks (ie vets. vs. my convicts) are also having serious problems locating work. This bodes ill for the rest eventually coming home as well.
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Again due to my employment, I’m at a position where I get to see, actively, the folks seeking work. This population has changed dramatically over the past couple of years. Used to be that if some one was finding it difficult to find suitable employment, there was an obvious reason - limitations on their part (lack of education, crimnial record, poor work history etc), restrictions on their part (some disability, some lack of desire to change industries etc.). Don’t see that anymore. Folks who’ve had good employment records, have education/training etc, just want to work, can’t find any.
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I’ve got a 19 year old son. He’s registered for selected service, that’s the law of the land. I live in acute fear that the draft will be reinstated (I know that it won’t be before November, but all bets are off afterwards). That, my friends, is a very real difference.
Hitleresq? I’ve never claimed that. But make no mistake. My life, in very practical, real ways, is significantly worse since the 2000 election.
How my life has been made worse by the Bush presidency:
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Decreased security: Both Bush’s contemptuous treatment of our allies and his reckless rush to war in Iraq have painted a big fat bullseye on our collective forehead, in my opinion. I love to travel, and now I’m far more worried as an American I’ll be targeted. I also have loved ones in New York City, and I’m scared for them because I believe Bush has fucked up our ability to prevent future terrorist attacks. Terrorism will be stopped by international cooperation (e.g. intelligence, police work, etc.) and well-funded domestic security programs, not by pissing off our allies and looking like a big dangerous giant to the Muslim world. The fact that all these things were completely and 100% unnecessary pisses me off to no end.
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Higher future taxes: Bush has racked up record deficits, while decreasing the percentage of taxes paid by the richest of the rich. That means that when it comes time to pay off these humongous deficits, middle-class people are not only to have to pay higher taxes to compensate for the deficits, but we’re going to have to shoulder more of the burden than before Bush’s tax cuts for the rich. That $300 doesn’t mean much to me if it will end up costing me $3000 down the road.
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Decreased job security: I’m in the process of looking for a job once my current position ends, and things are really tight. Although I think I’ve got a lock on something, this makes me realize how screwed I am if I lose my job unexpectedly.
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Bush’s anti-science positions: from global warming to stem cell research, this administration is incredibly anti-science. The stem cell issue is particularly close to my heart, as my father has multiple sclerosis. To shut down an incredibly promising avenue of research to cater to his right-wing religious ideologues makes me absolutely furious. Who knows what cures will be delayed due to this policy?
In general, I’m pissed off at Bush because I feel he is actively harming the country, while wrapping himself in a cloak of pretty words that don’t match his actions.
How has Bush made my life worse?
[ul]
[li]My husband was sent overseas to a war that was predicated on a lie. Well, okay, faulty intelligence. But, I’m having a hard time believing that the intelligence could have been that bad.[/li]
[li]My husband was released from active-duty service in December and has not found a job yet. When going back to school would be a better financial move than finding a job, there is something very wrong.[/li]
[li]His attorney general sees nothing wrong with second-guessing medical judgment and demanding the medical records of women who have had abortions. This part doesn’t affect me personally, but I don’t wish to have some lawyer reading my personal medical information on the off chance that someone may have done something that the administration has deemed immoral.[/li]
[li]His administration, period, sees nothing wrong with mining information about anyone it wishes, regardless of reason. I like having the freedom to read what I wish, go where I wish, spend money where I wish, etc. and not have to account to some FBI agents who may or may not even be investigating the right person.[/li]
[li]As Giraffe pointed out, this is one of the most anti-scientific administrations in recent years. My mother also suffers from multiple sclerosis, and stem-cell research would offer treatments, if not outright cures, for the disease that has taken away her ability to walk and to hold her grandson, among others. I’d love for Shrub to go visit my mother, look her in the eye, and tell her that the rights of cells outweigh her need for medical treatment.[/li]
[/ul]
I’d continue, but this is making me too angry.
Robin
Nice commentary, folks, but I for one refuse to answer the OP unless he indicates that he was asking an actual question and is willing to entertain responses that may differ with his opinion, rather than just providing a vehicle for his pro-Bush views. So far, all he’s done is tell responders to shut up and go away. How about it, duffer?
Those two statements are not necessarily related. One might argue that many of the Nazis thought they were doing the right thing.
And (and this is a sticky issue I realize) there’s more to Nazis than WWII and the holocaust. I don’t think it’s at all unreasonable to draw parallels between some of the actions of the Nazis and:
-referring to opponents of the administration as unpatriotic
-curtailment of civil rights
-distracting the voting populace with a “patriotic” foreign war
-cronyism and corruption
-interference with an election
Now, obviously, you might have issues with any or all of the above items. Heck, I might have issues with any or all of the above claims. However, none of them are prima facie ridiculous, and all of them are analogous to some things that were, in fact, done by Nazis.
The 2000 election is a good example. Even if you think that liberals who harp on it are blowing things way out of proportion and just plain wrong, you can (I hope) at least see where they might be coming from in the first place. It’s not like the 2000 election was just another election like any other, and all the laws were followed in a totally routine and obviously legal fashion, and those damn liberals needed to have something to whine about, so they just decided to start bitching about it with absolutely no justification…
Oh, and Airman Doors, keep fighting the good fight. I disagree with you about a number of topics, but I respect your intelligence and integrity, and I’m sorry that you sometimes find debating on the dope to be pointless and frustrating.
You are aware, are you not, that it’s Congress that apporves treaties, not the president. You will not see the US signing up for this, regardless of who is in the Whitehouse.
Althought you did say “all visitors”, I assume you are aware that if you have a UK passport, you will not be fingerprinted. If you want to protest the fingerprinting of others, that’s fine. But this does not affect you directly.
Now that is something that affects me, as a US citizen. Although it’s simple enough for any of us to go there if we want.
So, Bush is responsible for the stupidity of other people?
AS this is not a thread for debate but just the OP’s excuse to pick a fight, i shall oblige him since i’m in a bad mood.
well, first of all, i have to put up with threads from dumbfucks like you who care only about yourself as you smile all smugly cuz your piece of shit is in the White House.
Secondly, i have to put up with the entire world hating us (which includes me) because our tinpot monkey rapist must satisfy his bloodlust by invading anyone with a turbin.
Thirdly,
yes, the $5 more a month really helps me out. It gives me money to give to Kerry to stop Shrub’s sorry ass in November. Thank You, Bush.
(You see, some of us don’t take well to small change bribes so we will look the other way as Fatcats rape the shit out of us and spit on us.)
Fuck you and your wife. Your fear is what Bush is counting on. THERE IS NO WAR! THERE IS NOT VAST CONSPIRACY OF TERRORISTS! It is just a bunch of idiots in caves, most of which are on the run right now. Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9-11, you brainless jellyfish. This part of the reply is Yellow, just like you (coward) and your AWOL going leader, motherfucker
keep me informed as to when you reach a 14 year old’s reasoning level, will ya? Goosestep yourself on to another message board, please.
I could show you 5000, but you will just dismiss them all as Liberal Bunk. You are a fucking tool, and people like you are why America has lost it’s way. I hope you enjoy Hell, since you are creating it here.
Hm. I don’t recall referring to Bush as Satan, or as the worst thing to happen to mankind. Certainly Hitler was worse.
I’ve called him a Nazi, and while that may be a bit hyperbolic, it was the first term to come to mind to describe a man who seeks the privelige of arresting anyone he likes for any reason he likes, and holding them without due process of law. Perhaps this is more “South American Dictatorish” than “Nazilike.” I’m not sure this is an improvement, considering we’re talking about the President of the United States.
I’ve called him a fascist, and I don’t think I’m exaggerating much, there. The man has repeatedly demonstrated his complete lack of use for any kind of organizational process that doesn’t provide him with what he wants, be it Congress, the UN, foreign governments, and the American people. If you don’t serve his ends, then the hell with you, and how may the situation be arranged so that Bush may conveniently ignore you?
I might also point out that Bush has provided the same PR for himself and his country in the Middle East that Hitler did for Germany and Germans throughout the rest of the planet. Admittedly, we didn’t have far to go there, but before Bush showed up, I don’t think Europeans hated us, or thought we were a crazy bunch of powermongering maniacs. Nowadays, a great many of them do, and I blame the Bush administration for this.
As to Bush doing what he thinks is right… well… perhaps what Bush “thinks” is not what I would think, in his shoes. If a third of my nation were firmly against invading another country, I would be severely disinclined to go to war, especially if that country were utterly incapable of launching any kind of serious, sustained attack against the United States. Just because two thirds is either gleeful or wishy-washy doesn’t mean I can just laugh and tell the remaining third to go piss up a rope. He is, after all, President over ALL the people, not just the ones who agree with him or support his policies.
If it could be demonstrated that he had no intention of invading Iraq before 9/11… if it could be demonstrated that the intelligence all indicated Saddam had WMDs… If, if, if… then perhaps, I could view the administration’s actions with some degree of tolerance and understanding. Unfortunately, these conclusions are heavily in doubt, and at least one picture of Bush seems to indicate that he was going to invade Iraq if it harelipped the Pope, planned on doing so WAY before 9/11/01, and that intelligence data was heavily slanted to provide him an excuse.
Everything the Bush Administration has done since Bush and Cheney’s ascent to office has painted a picture of an administration not the least bit interested in what is good for America, Americans, or the world, so much as in The Agenda. Truth, justice, and the good of the American people… ALL the people… be damned. The President wants what he wants.
And to hell with whoever has to pay the bills, or die for it.
I think John Kerry is the Nazi. The similarities between him and Hitler are obvious. Both he and Hitler participated in big anti establishment rallies. Both were at some time more leftist than the general population. Both have been soldiers in war. Both are devil spawned. Neither knew Jane Fonda. Etc. etc. etc. Examples are legion. Yeah Johnny boy is one helluva scary dude if you ask me.
As for everybody’s favourite prugelknapf: Bush. I think what’s been done with your deficit is a catastrophe in waiting. However on a personal note, as your currency plunge to monopoly like money (it’s got a new nickname here: dollar-zloty) my buying power has risen dramatically within a fairly short time – that’s great for me. Go me! But beyond that, can’t say he has had much influence on me one way or the other. Sometimes I’ve been forced to listen to his boring speeches, but of course compared to John Kerry he’s got the oratory powers of Churchill on speed. Probably the worst thing about it all is this constant liberal whining.
- Rune
My tax cut was insignificant compared to the travails I and all of my friends have experienced due to the shitty economy, which I personally believe is Bush’s fault. In fact, since I haven’t had a raise in three years I make less money than I did then.
I have to work harder because the domestic part of the federal government is underfunded and in total disarray, and I have to do a lot of their work for them to get anything done. I have to bill that time to my clients, among the most impoverished people in America, and that affects them.
I’ve had friends leave town because they can’t find a job and can’t afford to stay here in Washington, DC. I have friends who have seen too much combat and are starting to crack up. One pal of mine came out of retirement as a combat cameraman and hasn’t been seen or heard from in months. I haven’t lost anyone personally (except maybe the cameraman), but friends of mine have, and I have shared their pain and anguish.
Some of you may feel safer now that we have to put our cell phones through metal detectors, but I’ll put a lot of money on the fact that the average DC worker doesn’t see it that way. Because we see what isn’t being done. And we’re the canary in the coalmine for the rest of you.
And, duffer, keep in mind that some bastard with an RPG can still walk straight across the border to the edge of your airport. Thanks to our fearless leader’s foreign policy, I think there are a lot more people out there willing to entertain the thought of doing it, too. Enjoy your flight.
Duffer, you’re still on the hook for explaining the electoral college, not just providing a link. Any asshole can do that.
This is to the OP AND ONLY the OP. How has George affected My Life in a bad way? Well, lets see. I can’t travel to Europe anymore. Well, I guess technically, I could, but why? The people in Europe have lost every ounce of respect they ever had for America due to his actions (This Includes the UK, where everyone but the staff of the Mirror thinks Tony is an ass-kissing suck-up). And since they can’t address His Highness Bush directly, nor are they allowed to protest in his presence, They take it out on the average American.
That and it would cost an arm and a leg to go to Europe right now. The Dollar’s value to the Euro has Dropped Like A Stone thanks to Herr Bush. Wiping aside all the Keynsian Gobbledy-Gook, that means the money in your wallet buys 1/3 less than it did under Clinton when you travel in Europe. (“Thank your President, kids.” “Thanks, George!!!”) But then flying by airplane has become such an uncomfortable chore, why would anyone want to do it unless they had to???
Yes, taxes are very low now. In simple terms, the minimum payment is Very low on my VISA debit-card. But I was making deposits to a nice little nest egg for retirement under Clinton. Under King George, I make payments. Right now, I’m getting banged for Interest on a loan of $477 Billion that I’m making the payments on, but didn’t co-sign for, and dealing with the fact that The Entire Nest Egg has been Pissed Away! Happier??? Well I guess some people laugh hysterically both before and after that first foreclosure notice comes. But personally, I’m getting sick and tired of the President running this country like its the United States of Haiti.
The fact that duffer is still an unquestioning Bush supporter didn’t tip you off?
Aw, c’mon, Doors, I thought you were smart enough not to drag out the “left-leaning board” strawman. That’s the kind of tactic reserved for the looney tunes brigade; surely you’re smarter than that.
Here’s a hint: The board only looks “left-leaning” when you’re on the far right.
John Mace, for one, who’s been especially prolific lately. Sam Stone, who keeps waving te ol’ red-white-and-blue so much that I wonder why he’s still in Canada. UncleBeer, who usually saves his partisan banter for the BBQ Pit, and doesn’t bother with Great Debates. Voodoochile has been slowly building a presence here, but has already shown enough right-wing flag-waving to make Rush Limbaugh proud. And, of course, yourself. But I’m sure you see yourself as a fair-minded moderate, don’t you? 
And really, why dismiss Brutus and Scylla so easily? After all, unquestioning support for the President and an inability to recognize when you’re wrong appear to be hallmarks of modern American conservative thought. You’re still throwing your support behind Bush, even when his policies are screwing things up for yourself and your family…
I’m sure this has probably happened to others, but I personally feel like I have a lot less privacy than I did before the Bush Administration. Why do I feel this, you ask? Well, my fiance is a foreign national from India. Several months ago, we received a document from our helpful Missouri Supreme Court informing us that all outgoing electronic communication had been monitored, as had all our phone calls. So all of our communication devices had been bugged from late September 2001 through November 2002. I can only assume that it was because of his nationality. Regardless, I DO feel the Bush Administration has made my life at least a bit more uncomfortable.
I’m sure duffer will be along any second now to tell you that the only reason you’re feeling anxious must be because you have something to hide. If you were a law-abiding citizen like him, you would welcome the news of this covert surveilance with a smile and a batch of warm cookies for the FBI agents listening in on your calls. :rolleyes:
Respectfully, I must disagree. My perception of the responses in this thread is that by and large they’ve addressed this request in the OP:
Those responses have either ignored the third paragraph about the Nazi-calling, or have specifically pointed out that they’re not addressing that part of the OP.
For what it’s worth, my take on the bulk of the responses is that they have indeed eloquently and in a multitude of ways shown how the current administration has made their lives worse. Which is what I took the OP to be asking, with the Nazi/Satan/etc. stuff squirted in as lighter fluid for the briquets.
Well, after we got that notice, I did start to yell bomb into the phone every once in a while, just to see what happened. Now there are a bunch of unmarked white vans outside every time I walk out the door and a couple of guys talking into their pens. Oh, well. 
Um, wow. That’s all you have to say about my post? What a hard-hearted asshat you are.
(A selfish Bush fan who can’t be bothered to contemplate the problems of others is asking me to “think.” I’ll just savor the irony of that for a while.)
Excellent post. Better than my egregiously longwinded comments by far. This thread has indeed been full of poignant and pointed responses. Big kudos especially to Master Wang-Ka and FisherQueen for their eloquent remarks regarding education, to AirmanDoors for being conservative but relatively fair-minded (and best of all being smart enough not to vote for Bush), to LegoLamb for adding cogent comments (love the Alignment stuff!), to cowgirl for adding unique perspective re: your Arab friend and for being so flattering to my post, to overlyverbose (ha! should’a been my screenname!) for sharing that very scary story, and to elucidator for … well, just being elucidator.
To respond to couple of other things brought up in the thread …
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yeah, like others I didn’t see the point in addressing silly old duffer’s strawman “Nazi/Satan” issue, since the vast majority of anti-Bush posts here have never equated W with Lucifer or the big H. He is approaching fascist status, though. Let’s call him FascistBush Lite! Same disgusting flavor, but not as chilling. Yet.
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Is the board left-leaning? From a U.S. stance, I think so, and don’t think we need to apologize or hide it. Indeed, I would be surprised if a community that was strongly committed to fighting ignorance was anything but left-leaning. What does that tell everyone about the intellectual virtues, or lack thereof, of rightist positions?
(That said, as many of our non-US SDMB members have mentioned, the board seems tilted rightwards to them. Perspective, don’tcha know.)
- Speaking of which, I think the “Americans are sooooo conservative” meme really needs to be put to bed once and for all. I agree that to non-USians, in comparison to you guys, it’s probably true. But using our own country’s standards, the majority agree squarely with the typical beliefs of the liberals. Comes as a surprise, don’t it? The right-wing corporations owning the media, the administration and their comrades-in-arms congresspeople want you to believe that they’re in the majority. They aren’t, and I’m sick to death of the slander being taken as gospel. In fact, I think I smell a pit thread coming on…
Okay, I’m done.