Every year my wife and I head down to her sister’s place for Passover seder. It’s not my religion, but it’s nice to see everyone and sit down to a good dinner with family.
This year’s dinner started out on a bad foot when her father couldn’t find his car keys or wallet, and we had to drive an extra two hours to go pick him up. I don’t mind, he’s a nice guy and the extra drive was no problem.
After the Seder at my sister-in-law’s place, we’re just starting the actual dinner, when another guest arrives late. It’s my sister-in-law’s husband’s father, who I’ve never met before. Seemed like a nice guy, and he’s seated and we’re starting dinner and light conversation. And then the discussion turned to religion. I admitted to being an atheist, and that’s when the Parade of Ignorance began.
He immediatly went off about how scientists are atheists, except most of them really believe in god but are scared to admit it, and about how evolution and the Big Bang were just attempts by science to disprove religion. I politely informed him that he was wrong, and that most of the scientific theories he was spouting about were actually developed by christians in the first place. He replied with a few insulting non sequiters, then began to repeat the same original ignorance. I tried to correct him, he just started talking louder over me. When I asked him to shut up and let me talk, he threatened to start an actual fight.
So I left. I told the host I wouldn’t sit down and eat dinner with him, and that I’d be back later to pick up my wife. I didn’t want to start a scene, but there is ignorance that I simply won’t let sit unchallenged, and there are people who I will not sit and eat dinner with.
So now I’m home, alone, bored, pissed off and hungry. Damn this sucks. We’re probably not going to get invited back to dinner there.
Hm. IME, seders often bring out the worst in people. A certain incident springs to mind: we were all gathered at my aunt’s house. I was perhaps 10. My father and my two uncles (one whom lived there) had had a few drinks. The time came to decide who got to lead the seder. They got in a physical fight over it. :rolleyes: (It was finally settled when my aunt, very, very much to her credit said: It’s my house too, there’s no reason why a man has to lead it, so I will and you three can go and calm down, or leave.")
To your credit, I think you did the right thing by leaving.
My wife just came home, brought me dinner. She’s kind of mad at me, and is worried that we might get into a situation where she has to go to family functions alone.
Apparantly, she’s suprised I didn’t already know the guy was an asshole. Seems everyone else in the family knows not to get into those kinds of conversations with him. I guess I’ve simply been fortunate to have never really spoken with him before.
She also says that as I was leaving, he had to be physically restrained to keep him from attacking me. And he left not long after he incident. Had I known that, I would have simply come back after an hour or so.
So, after people have had a chance to regain their composure, apologize to your hosts for disturbing their meal? You did participate in the upraor, and although you left, the damage had been done. (I’m not saying you were in the wrong for standing up for yourself, I don’t think you are, but it would be gracious to apologize for unintentionally being a part of conflict.) Explain that you didn’t realize the person was like that, and promise to avoid future conversation along those lines again with that person present. That might help the situation a little. Good luck.
The guy was wrong. He was a jerk. Yes, he was. And I think you have every right to challenge ignorance, maybe even the responsibility.
But, I think you picked the wrong time, the wrong place, and the wrong way to go about it. It wasn’t a debate competition, it was a family dinner. A special occasion family dinner no less. When he started getting belligerent you would have done better to back off, change the subject, or just let it drop. You’re not going to change his mind, everybody else there probably knows the same things you do, and you just made a bad situation worse. Telling him to shut up was inexcusable, IMHO. Some people are just like that, and you’re not going to get anywhere trying to change them. All you accomplished was to make everybody uncomfortable and spoil a holiday get-together.
In all honesty (and I’m trying to say this in a very gentle tone of voice here) I think you weren’t so much challenging ignorance as you were trying to be right. I’m thinking about my mother here. Every time we said, “but he started it!” she said, “Yes, but you should have stopped it.” Try to make things right with your hosts and let it go from there.
Well, technically, it wasn’t the inevitable. Everybody else in the family manages not to get into arguments with the guy, so clearly it could have been avoided. And, to be honest, since this was a family dinner and the twit in question was the host’s father (makes it very difficult to not invite him), it really ought to have been avoided if at all possible. Even if it meant letting some of his ignorance go unchallenged. Sometimes that’s just what you have to do.
If nothing else, look on it as a learning experience–now you know what he’s like and you know not to let him draw you into this sort of crap again. Or you could look on it as a form of entertainment: Dr.J’s got an uncle like this guy, but more subtle, and it’s almost become a game to see just how far away I can see his crap coming and shut him down. What works best with him is to either completely misunderstand what he’s implying, or to be concentrating so hard on something that you just don’t hear his mumbling. That just drives him batshit.
I’m with thirdwarning and Crazy Cat Lady on this one – there’s a time to fight ignorance, and there’s a time to prove that you’re a mature adult who can handle an asshole without getting dragged down to his level. Family dinners would be an example of the latter.
Sorry everyone, but the guy was clearly looking for a fight with me from the moment I admitted to being an atheist, to the point of threatening physical violence when I tried to defend myself. I probably didn’t react well, but he was deliberatly trying to provoke me. (And admitted as much and apologized later.)
I’ve spoken to the family and made it clear that I’m sorry what happened, and I will try to avoid confrontation with that family member if we meet at another family dinner. But if he behaves similarily again, I’ll be leaving again.
Why leave? If you know he’s going to start a fight, why not just keep your mouth closed when he brings up politics/religion? Or try to ameliorate things?
Remember that, especially at a Seder, you’re celebrating the story of how the entire Jewish people were nearly wiped out, and then would eventually get the ten commandments, reach the Promised Land, etc… I know those of us in the Jew Tang Clan mix food and ritual a lot of the time (yum!), but it’s still a special event to be at a Seder.
If this guy is a schmuck, let him be one. Have a Hillel sandwich and consider the fact that this guy is spoiling a family get together. Don’t help him spoil it.
One year, we decided to go to Las Vegas for Passover. They held a seder at the Riviera hotel, in one of the large ballrooms. 100 tables, ten people in each, and a rostrum with a long table where the Rabbi and some other distinguished guests conducted the seder.
About two-thirds of the way through the service, we became aware of some raised voices at the next table over. Suddenly two men jumped out of their chairs, knocking dishes, glasses and napkins to the floor, and started swinging at each other. Some people shrieked and some others tried to restrain the combatants, one of whom got a pretty decent punch in, before some security personnel arrived at the scene and escorted the angry parties out of the room.
Apparently, Passover occasionally brings out the worst in people. Maybe it’s the traditional four glasses of wine?
Ah, this brings back the memories! IANAJ, but as a college undergraduate, I worked as a waiter for a local hotel. I wound up serving at several seders, and the interesting thing was, as soon as the ceremony was over, there was a stampede for the door! (there was a chinese restaurant in the hotel, and most of the particiapnts finished the evening with a pu=pu platter and chop suey!)
And here we have the source of many of the aforementioned incidents, I think. At the University Seder I attended last night, the woman sitting next to me managed to get drunk enough on two of the ‘glasses’ to giggle inappropriately throughout the entire thing (including when one women was speaking very emotionally about her recent trip to Israel). Of course we were all a bit testy, considering we didn’t actually get served the main course until 12.20 am!
Yup, four very full glasses of wine and IIRC, you have to drink the first one before you start eating. On the rare times I’ve been invited to a seder, I either take the smallest glass I own or ask if I can drink grape juice instead.
I’ll back you up on this, AndrewL. I understand what CrazyCatLady and others are saying, and normally I’d agree with them. However, in this case, the guy seemed really over the line and spoiling for a fight. Maybe you could have handled things a little better, but most of the blame seems to rest squarely on the crazy guy’s shoulders. It doesn’t seem like you knew what you were getting into and the situation quickly escalated beyond the point where “Hey, let’s agree to disagree” would have done any good. I think your wife could have given you a heads-up about the SIL’s H’s F before the dinner so you could have know to do the smile-and-nod-politely routine, but, of course, hindsight is twenty-twenty.