...so why hasn't Elmore been banned yet?

…the recent banning of Huey Freeman was justified for the following reasons:

Miller made it clear that Huey wasn’t banned for “hate speech”, he wasn’t banned for “going too far.” He was banned for trolling.

In that thread I pointed out the behaviour of the poster known as Elmore, and pointed out that his behaviour was identical, probably even worse. The moderators chose not to comment then so I thought I’d post this new thread to get some clarity on the matter.

Heffalump and Roo provided some objective statistics:

Only 53% of Huey’s total posts were in the pit. (Miller chose 3 months for some arbitary reason that he doesn’t explain, I’m choosing not to use that 3 months.)

31% of his total posts were either in the thread he started or in the pit thread dedicated to him.

That leaves 21% percent of his total posts that had the potential to be " invective-filled screeds": but even then, as Heffalump and Roo points out, many of those post are not invective-filled screeds at all.

In contrast: 87% of Elmore’s total posts are in the pit.

In my opinion about 47% of the posts could be fairly characterized as “invective-filled screeds”.

34% of his total posts were directed at one poster only: Huey Freeman.

5 of Elmore’s posts that weren’t in the pit happened to be in this particluar forum. Here are the first four:

And his fifth post in ATMB I think gives the game away:

By any objective standard Elmore’s pattern of behavior not only matches the behaviour that resulted in Huey’s banning, but in my opinion is substantially worse.

When Elmore called Huey a troll in AMTB he said that after a moderator advised everyone in the thread to “Let’s go easy on calling other posters trolls in ATMB, please.” I reported that post both before the thread was closed and before Huey got banned: the post did not get actioned.

I think I’ve made a conclusive case that Elmore: is, by the interpretation of the trolling rule given by Miller in the thread where Huey’s banning was announced, is clearly and unambiguosly trolling.

I think if we use Huey’s banning as a yardstick: then Elmore is clearly over that line, and if he isn’t being banned then at the very least should be getting a warning.

In addition to that: I think Elmore deliberately targeted Huey with a series of inflammatory posts with the intention of getting him angry. And I think that his declaration after Huey got banned that he “probably won’t be posting much more, if at all” shows that he got exactly what he wanted. I think he was obviously trolling Huey (using the traditional definition of trolling) and he did that not only in the BBQ Pit (where it is allowed) but outside of the pit as well. When Huey got banned he celebrated, then when got called out he said his goodbyes.

But do you know what I really think?

I think all of that is bullshit.

I’ve made a significantly stronger case for Elmore’s banning than what Miller has made for Huey’s banning. But I don’t think he should be banned. Because his behaviour, just like Huey’s, really isn’t out of the ordinary for posts in the pit.

In my, most humblest opinions (and I think every bit of evidence appears to bear this out) the decision was made to ban Huey first, then a justification for that banning was found afterwards. Because there is no reason why Miller chose to look at only the last 3 months of posts, and not 4, or 5. I think we have posters here on this board who regularly post “hate-filled screeds” but they get away with it because they aren’t full of “invectives.” In the last thread I gave examples of posters who don’t think Muslims should be allowed to immigrate to America, of posters who posted creepy, stalkerish stuff and none of that get moderated. A review of Starving Artist’s posts would reveal a horrifying litany of disgusting misogyny: but he wasn’t banned for that review, he was banned for a specific post.

Huey never got warned, never got mod-noted, so while he was aware some of what he was saying was outside of what we would consider “the norm” of the community standards here, he wouldn’t have been aware that he was in danger of getting banned. There was no attempt at corrective action. No gentle guidance. No aggresive guidance. Just a review of his posts followed by a banning.

Which brings me to the bigger picture.

I don’t think anyone would disagree that black people are held to different standards than white people in America today. It was what Hueys “Living while Black” thread was all about. Black people are more likely to go to prison than white people who have been charged for the very same drug crime. Black people are less likely to get a job if they have a “black sounding name.”

Most of the time this isn’t intentional. It isn’t deliberate.

And this is why, in the wider context, the reason given to ban Huey is problematic.

Rules should be clear. They should be consistently enforced. Decisions shouldn’t be arbitary.

When you make a decision based on clearly subjective criteria you open yourself up to accusations of prejudice.

I reported Elmore’s post yesteday. I invited the moderators to review his posting history. They have declined to take action.

Huey struggled to fit in here. His rants were often unintellgible and incoherent, spouted conspiracy theories and some of his insults “went too far.” But none of that is against the rules. He posted a lot in the pit. But that isn’t against the rules.

Elmore knows how to play the game. His rants are intelligible, and short enough that most people would not characterize it as a “screed.” Nothing he’s done broke any rules either (except for the accusation of trolling outside of the pit, which was not actioned).

But Huey gets banned. And Elmore is still here. What happened here is a reflection of how things actually work in America. Where the people that hold the power twist and contort themselves to punish the loud, imperfect person who makes them uncomfortable, but allows the “smarter” person who can “play the game” to get away scott free.

I’m not accusing the moderators of racism. I’m not asking for Huey to be reinstated and I’m not really asking for Elmore to be banned.

But I do want an explanation. I don’t understand why Elmore hasn’t been banned. I don’t understand why the context of many of Huey’s “invective-filled screeds” (they happened in a thread where he was pitted, they were direct responses to people insulting and attacking him) wasn’t taken into account. I want to know if the rationale behind the Huey’s banning will now be considered a precedent, and that now we can expect the banhammer to come without warning after a casual, subjective assessment of our posts (which in the case of Huey, has been shown to be objectively wrong.)

I’m asking the moderators to reflect on how they came to this decision, and whether or not they were as objective as they could have been.

You guys have done a tremendous amount of work around the area of misogyny, and even though things aren’t perfect, I’ve expressed before my gratitude to the moderating team for what they have done to make the boards a safer place for women.

But you haven’t done the same thing for race. Racists are openly allowed to post here and as long as they don’t cross the line into hate speech all is fine. And the decision to ban Huey is just so fucking tone-deaf. You could have done what you normally would do: mod-note/warn/ban and I wouldn’t have any objection at all. Huey said many rude and obnoxious things and if you had warned him and he continued his behaviour then banned him nobody would batted an eyelid. You’ve given topic bans before. There was nothing to stop you from telling Huey to stop his “screeds.” But that wasn’t even considered.

But you jumped right to the banning. And you chose not to ban posters whose behaviour I’ve demonstrated (IMHO) to be objectively worse. Like it or not that sends a very clear message. Conform. Stay in line. Be one of the good black people. Not one of the loud ones.

I just feel this needed to be said. I think I’ve posted in calm, respectful manner, and I think what I’ve posted a fair, and logical argument. But in reality I’m angry. And scared. I’m as angry as Huey was. But I’ve had the privilege of a different upbringing, of a different background, and I’ve learnt to fit in a bit better, to be “more white.” The first time I revealed my cultural background here (as I said in the other thread) a moderator called me a bot. Sometimes I wish I could be a bit more like Huey. I wish I could express how fucking scary it is to be living in a world with literal white supremacists running around in the White House. And I wish I could have been a bit like asahi yesterday, who said everything I felt like saying but was just too scared to say it. So you get this thread instead. Because this is what I do.

Ngā mihi.

Its time for mods to reverse the earlier mass banning of everyone. We all have to go. Only then will the board be free of the hate and vitriol that makes this the Capital of hate speech on the internet.

Ban the Dopers and Save the World!!

Anyone care to summarize this screed in 10 words or less for me?

…moderation is demonstrably objectively inconsistent. Please explain why.

Don’t you mean “repeat”?

Nice and succinct! Well done.

Here’s my wag based off the tl:dr version:

That’s humanity for ya.

Screed? Here’s a summary for you…

I don’t know about banning, but I was shocked that he wasn’t at least warned for that plague comment – I know I reported it. Wouldn’t it count as wishing harm on another poster?

I’d much rather the Elmores of the board be banned than the Hueys. I don’t recall Elmore bringing cites or facts or anything interesting. Huey at least liked to bring facts to the board sometimes, and had all kinds of cites, even if he had that lame summoning spell he cast every time he brought a cite.

The “don’t be a jerk” rule is subjective, and I think that’s fine; but the question needs to be: how much does this person’s presence improve the board, and how much would their absence improve the board? That’s also subjective, but if asked, I think it’d result in clearing a lot of detritus off the board, folks that never bring anything except smug nastiness.

Well, that much I can get behind. I struggle to see how the mere fact of posting outside the pit makes the same person’s pit posts more or less “jerk”-ish. I didn’t care at all for Huey as a poster, but this banning comes as a puzzling surprise.

Just wanted to state, for the record, that I couldn’t possibly care less about any of this. If my presence is so upsetting to another member that they’ll spend, like, an hour writing a huge post demanding I be banned then I’ll just leave.

Y’know, just like Huey didn’t.

Because it’s their sandbox and they’ll do whatever the fuck they want with it.

They owe you nothing in the way of explanation.

Anything else?

Yeah, nobody cares.

Nobody did that, but if you wanna leave, that’s cool.

…you’ve quoted the “10 words or less” version of the OP. The “10 words or less” version contains substantially less nuance than what I wrote in the OP.

The moderators don’t owe me jack shit. But this forum is here so we can ask questions to the people that run this place. So here I am, asking questions, to the people who are running this place.

I’ve got plenty. But how about you: are you finished, or do you have anything else important you would like to say?

So? It doesn’t contain any less substance than your OP, which is nothing but another one of those whiny, annoying threads that boil down to, "Why can’t this board be run the way I want it to be run?!

That’s what I said.

Nope. You’re not here asking questions. You’re here “making a case” that the administration of this board owes you some kind of justification for banning an obvious troll. I’m only saying that they owe you no such thing. Which they don’t.

Nothing I ever say is important.

I argued for this in the ATMB misogyny thread a few weeks ago. The response was:

Well done and both are quite well written. I’ll be curious about the responses once they get posted.

Never came across Elmore not visiting the Pit much but you make a really good case for that one to be a ban as well. Yeah – I know; the offer to leave is on the table from post #11. But in the interest of equity/equality it probably should be a ban.

That’s not a fair assessment of his original post. There is absolutely nothing wrong with asking for consistency in the application of enforcement of the rules the message board admins/mods write. Yes, if there were no rules or a forum dedicated for discussion and clarification you’d have a point. But this message board does have rules, albeit a scattered and convoluted mess that makes Magic Realm look clear, and a forum to discuss so Banquet Bear is perfectly appropriate.

…thank you.