I had a point. But upon reflection, it wasn’t a very good one. So ignore my previous post, please.
Yeah and this is fighting ignorance? This type of post is preferable to His4ever’s assertions regarding particular branches of Christianity? Perhaps ** Kirkland1244** you might drop your drawers so we can observe the balls behind such outrageous spewing venom. (See Sailor’s previous post in this thread for context).
I do not support His4ever’s assertions in general, but we would certainly do the cause of fighting ignorance some justice by practicing what we preach. In particular, His4ever has asserted that Catholics worship saints. I thought so too. If I have understood correctly, Roman Catholic dopers have stated that Catholics do not worship saints. This is not evidence, it is hearsay.
**Kirkland1244 ** has even stated that “official teachings of the Catholic Church,” were presented although I do no recollect having read such. In light of the contradiction regarding Catholic worship of the the saints I checked out the definition of worship as follows
As far as I’m concerned, prayer to St. Jude or Mary, mother of Jesus to intercede with respect to God confers reverence and supernatural power. See http://www.angelfire.com/ar/praytosaintjude/
or
My only purpose to make an issue of what appears to be evidence of Catholic worship of the saints is to show that merely denying it exists is on par with His4ever’s lamentable debating style. Perhaps a seriously presented rebuttal of the claim for Catholic saint worship might set a good example for His4ever to follow.
Hey! Don’t defile classic SNL lines by using them on someone who won’t even get the reference.
Shodan, you ignorant slut. You’ve joined the ranks of the intentionally deceptive with that piece of drivel. Gaudere, gobear, other administrators and moderators, and I all came down hard on Kirkland for his comments. I spun off another thread to debate lissener and gobear eventually took it to the Pit. To say that we’ve abused H4E and gave a pass on the “liberals” is an outright lie. Several posters tried to have a reasonable discussion with H4E but she refused to respond sensibly and instead stated she refused to even consider another POV. Then, she had the audacity to open a Pit thread and whine about her treatment. She’s getting off light, in my opinion. And you’re an idiot.
spooje, although you’ve recalled your statment, I’m going to respond. The difference between H4E’s use of Scripture and ours is that we don’t insist that ours is correct and everyone else is WRONG. We also acknowledge that we’re using interpretations that are subject to error.
Y’all need to upgrade to “God of Abraham 4.0”
The older version had too many fragmentations and just isn’t coherent as a whole. And don’t even get me started on OS-Lron.
b.
Evidence would be my posting documentation from Vatican II that shows that the Catholic Church specifically differentiates between worship (which is reverence given only to the divine) and veneration (which is honor given to those who are in some way connected to the divine, such as the saints). Now, there is an archaic meaning of the word “worship” that is no longer in use, but still in some dictionaries, that encompasses both sets, but by that defition you worship the President of the United States when you give him the honor due his office.
And frankly, its not hearsay. If I say I don’t do something, that’s not hearsay. it’d be hearsay for me to say “Bill told me he wasn’t there, so I’m reporting it as fact.” That’s not what’s going on here. I know the Catholic Church and its teachings firsthand, therefore my evidence from personal experience is not hearsay.
I posted a quotation from Lumen Gentuum, in one of the threads. Don’t recall which. I’ll let you find them, because your charges aren’t worth the effort, and I have to get up to school.
Who gives a damn about “as far as you’re concerned”? Your opinion on Catholic petitions to Mary do not make them worship. The Hail Mary is a petition asking Mary to pray for us, same with the petition you posted to St. Jude. That is not worship. Worship is to treat something or someone as if they are God. There is no divinity implied in asking Mary to pray for us, unless I imply divinity when I ask my best friend to pray for me. But Nathan’s not God, and neither is Mary, and I treat neither as such.
Interceding with respect to God is called prayer. To intercede is to go to someone on behalf of someone else, which is exactly what Christians do when they pray for others. That does not denote a divine quality, unless you’re implying that all who pray for others possess this divine quality, too.
And in any case, the Catholic Church’s Christian nature and teachings are not to be judged by your (clearly) Protestant standard. Just like Protestantism isn’t to be judged by the standards of Catholicism. When dealing with Catholicism one must proceed from a Catholic point of view, or else nothing makes any sense. Same with Protestantism. From a Catholic point of view, Protestantism is a bunch of schismatic, nonsensical bullshit. But its not, because Protestantism is not judged by the understanding and definitions of Catholicism. That would be ludicrous.
But its not evidence, because there is a distinct difference in Catholicism between worship and veneration (respect). And unless you can demonstrate that that line has been crossed, using examples from the Catholic Church’s teachings itself (including the definition of that wide gap between the two concepts), then you’re just showing your ignorance of all things Catholic.
Kirk
coming in this one late, but had to respond to offer a correction here
T’aint true. There have been people who’ve called for your banning, but the point isn’t your POV (there are quite a few, notable conservative posters who enjoy a good reputation for debate etc) , but your habit of posting provocative OP’s w/o sufficient back up. YOu’ve noted that you’ve intentionally exaggerated points, ‘in order to get reactions’ which constitutes, in many people’s minds, “Trolling”.
It is for that, and not the leaning of your POV that has irritated people. How you can continue to not see that is an incredible achievement, since it’s been pointed out over and over.
and Shodan, as has been pointed out now, yes, people w/liberal leanings have been pitted and pounded on - I give you as further examples, stoid (who took it on the chin several times during the elections), Elvis1ives. Rjung and several others.
First of all, keep in mind that His4ever was referring to de facto practice among catholics, not church doctrine. I checked out the Lumen Gentium Nowhere could I find a reference to a distinction between veneration and worship, which is neccessary if one is to call His4ever a liar or at least in error. And don’t assume that His4ever equated the worship of saints among Roman Catholics with the worship of God. In any event, the veneration of saints is a particularly Catholic practice.
As yet you have still not provided a cite for the definition of worship and I have. My modern definition drawn from an on-line american dictionary, requires the object of worship to be either divine or supernatural. President George Bush is neither. A saint dead for several millenia who can hear your prayers is supernatural , though not divine.
But you can’t speak for the actual practice of many Catholics. Even the Lumen Gentium refers to excesses in veneration of the saints by the laity.
Cite please?
But neither has Nathan been bestowed the title “Queen of the Universe”. See Lumen Gentium
Oh, so you’ve judged me a Protestant? You will not find anywhere on these boards a criticism on my part of Roman Catholic doctrine. Furthermore you will find very few Protestants willing to acknowledge me as one of their own.
I have a question for His4Ever and Shodan.
I have heard Christians refer to satan as the prince of lies- By spreading lies, who do you think you are helping within your own belief system?
You can no longer claim ignorance, as the actual facts have been pointed out to you. I am honestly curious as to whether you think spreading lies is a godly thing to do in these instances.
I think I could probably ask His4Ever if she’d like a million dollars and she still wouldn’t come back to this thread.
Well that’s the point isn’t it. Provocative OP’s. There’s never sufficient backup for a provocative OP, extreme left or right if you’re inclined to disagree. If your OP is sufficiently non controversial no one cares if you back it up. and if you wish to criticize a controversial OP without backup that’s okay too. All you need to say is “fuck you”
I keep reading references to the “good” conservatives on this board, but who are they? I’m inclined to believe that not one of them will claim they are as far right as december let alone further right.
grienspace - SPecifically what has been objected to when december or anyone does this, is it post an OP, link to a source, and the source itself doesn’t even support the OP.
ANd it can easily be seen as ‘trolling’. this has been pointed out time and time again, to again pretend that it’s 'cause the OP is of a conservative nature is to ignore the specific issue.
grienspace, what the fuck do you think you’re doing?
IANAC, but I can tell you that there is a difference between veneration and worship, at least in the hate mongering context H4E chooses to speak in. She most certainly was trying to say those damn papists worship their saints as pagan gods.
Catholics have done a hell of a lot more here to defend their faith than the neo-fascist fundies have.
Do you have anything worthwhile to add or are you going to continue to swat at false arguments and defend the indefensible.
Perhaps I missed that statement. Could you please tell me where I can find it ? I certainly wouldn’t want to defend that.
Not that I will pretend that I fully understand the drivel you thus posted, but for the love of some fucking reason and order please stick to the topic. december has been pitted and examined and dissected and rebuked and analyzed enough, don’t you think?
What I guess to read out of your hogwash it seems that you haven’t understood one single one of those pittings though. Which brings me back to this thread.
It’s ok to be provocative if, and I say if, you have some fucking ground to stand on. When your basis is conjecture, falsifications and lies like the precious little member here under examination is being accused of, then it’s just pointless to engage in. Maybe that would be a solution to recommend at more times, the problem is that when we let falsehood stand unchallenged it smears the overall quality of the boards with the putrid smelling offal of ignorance, which is quite contrary to the standards we try to hold in debate in GD. When these excrements are smeared in the face of members who themselves do not engage in that sort of debate, it’s a violation of the respect that we afford each others as peers.
Sparc
conservatives who don’t get accused of trolling (or calls for their banning) include **zev, Jodi, Fenris, Scylla, UncleBeer, Ex-Tank, Anthracite, Izzy, ** -
and that’s just off the top of my head. my ‘off thetop of my head’ list of consevatives who get called on the carpet continually include you and december.
I’ve listed some liberals who’ve gotten called out - there’s also liberals who don’t.
You can search through her past posts. Someone asked her opinion on certain Jack Chick tracts, including one that equates Catholic saints with pagan gods. His4Ever stated that she agrees with that.
grienspace-so apparently, it doesn’t matter that I have 24 years and counting of living in a Catholic family, attending Mass for 20 some years, 9 years in a Catholic school and four in a Catholic college?
That’s only “hearsay?”
They can have all the standards they want, I don’t particular understand these people at all. If I choose to debate something, I"m not going to change my views on it just because everyone else thinks they have a more enlightened view or “proof” that they are right. I didn’t bring the subject of homosexuality up, but when asked I’m not going to lie just to make everyone happy. And if it’s a requirement on this board to change my view just because everyone else says they have proof to the contrary, that don’t cut it with me. I have God’s word, I know what it says on this issue. So they don’t need to give me a bunch of garbage because I refuse to change my view on this. So they disagree, fine. I’m not going to call them names and throw hissies just because they don’t agree with me even if I do think they’re wrong.
I don’t see any ignore button, where is it?
No one is giving you grief because you won’t change your mind.
It is because you are not giving us “God’s Word”, but “Jack Chick’s Word”. There’s a HUGE difference.
I could give you God’s word to back up why, according to the Catholic church, you are a heretic. But why waste my breath?