Something not quite right about that Crown Vic that plowed into the spectators in MD.

[Boyo_Jim]

[QUOTE=A.R. Cane]
OK, I’ll concede that it could be interpreted that way and I could have chosen my words more carefully. I did mean to imply that shoving the door through the windshield was inconsequentail to any future examination of the car. Ferns kept insisting that there should be some detailed examination of the car and implying that there might be some conspiratorial plot going on, perhaps involving a police coverup. I was simply saying that accident investigations don’t normally involve such detailed forensic investigations and trying to put to rest any ideas that there was a conspiracy involved. I saw nothing in any of the news reports that would even remotely suggest such a thing. The participant, and spectators, in the street racing incident obviously acted in a careless, probably illegal, manner and they are the people responsible for the outcome. While it might be human nature to deny that they did something stupid and look for someone else to blame, the facts seem to indicate differently.
[/QUOTE]

A.R. Cane, what is this personal experience you refer to in an earlier post?

It wasn’t merely an accident scene, it may be a crime scene. There might be any number of criminal charges filed against the driver of the Crown Vic, or the spectators, or the racers. There were also early reports that a truck trying to avoid the wreckage may have hit at least on of the victims. If that’s the case, it would seem that blood evidence on the vehicles would be a factor in determining what happened.

Some other things:
According to the Washington Post, there was no dead body in the front seat:

Bullock walked away from the crumpled car with a bruised lip, Walls said, and his older brother, who was in the passenger seat, also was not seriously injured.

Also, it is likely though uncertain that the vehicle will be further examined, and how closely is an open question. From the same Post story:

Collision reconstruction work typically takes several weeks as detectives measure skid marks, examine vehicles and interview witnesses.

Here is a Page from Donan Engineering, which specializes in forensic investigation and collision reconstruction:

An examination of the damage on the vehicles involved will reveal vital clues as to the cause of the accident. There are two types of damage: contact damage and induced damage. Contact damage results from contact with another object at that specific location. It is characterized by sharp deformations, scraping, tearing, and paint transfer. Induced damage is caused by the collision itself; however, no actual contact was made in that specific area. This is characterized by buckling, folding, or bowing of the bodywork. …
…A vehicle accident reconstructionist will use the contact damage and PDOF to determine how a vehicle interacted with an object, which could include another vehicle, a pedestrian, a utility pole, or any other roadside object. These assist in positioning the vehicle with respect to the contacted object, and help to provide a clearer picture of the travel path and orientation of the involved vehicles. Measurement of the depth and width of the damage is necessary if an Energy Analysis is to be used in determining vehicle speed.

I’m not saying all this will be done, but this is almost a kind of record setting accident that is getting nation-wide attention. It would not surprise me at all of there are extensive follow-up examinations of all available evidence. I don’t understand this certainty that there WON’T be, and the dismissal of any suggestion that there will or should be.

[A.R.Cane]

[QUOTE=

It wasn’t merely an accident scene, it may be a crime scene. There might be any number of criminal charges filed against the driver of the Crown Vic, or the spectators, or the racers. There were also early reports that a truck trying to avoid the wreckage may have hit at least on of the victims. If that’s the case, it would seem that blood evidence on the vehicles would be a factor in determining what happened.

Some other things:
According to the [Washington Post]
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/18/AR2008021802421.html), there was no dead body in the front seat:

Also, it is likely though uncertain that the vehicle will be further examined, and how closely is an open question. From the same Post story:

Here is a Page from Donan Engineering, which specializes in forensic investigation and collision reconstruction:

I’m not saying all this will be done, but this is almost a kind of record setting accident that is getting nation-wide attention. It would not surprise me at all of there are extensive follow-up examinations of all available evidence. I don’t understand this certainty that there WON’T be, and the dismissal of any suggestion that there will or should be.
[/QUOTE]

Boyo Jim]A.R. Cane, what is this personal experience you refer to in an earlier post?

In the early 60’s I was assigned to investigate and compile statistics on M/V accidents involving military personnel in R.I., eastern MA. and CT. If the accidents occurred on military property and/or involved military vehicles my reports were forwarded to the local Navy JAG office for use in any criminal/civil actions. While most of my investigations were after the fact, I did investigate several incidents on scene immediately following the occurence. I did that for about 18 months. In the early 70’s I was again assigned as an investigator at a medium sized Naval installation on the U.S. Gulf Coast, although that was more of a criminal investigation job, I did get involved in a few M/V accidents.

It wasn’t merely an accident scene, it may be a crime scene. There might be any number of criminal charges filed against the driver of the Crown Vic, or the spectators, or the racers. There were also early reports that a truck trying to avoid the wreckage may have hit at least on of the victims. If that’s the case, it would seem that blood evidence on the vehicles would be a factor in determining what happened.

Like you, I can only speculate on what I’ve heard or read in the news. I’ve seen no suggestion that the driver acted in any way that would indicate he will be charged w/ a crime, but the county D.A. will make that determination. It is indeed a crime scence, involving illegal racing and possibly illegal gambling, perhaps even illegal trespass and/or other criminal activity, but none of these would suggest the forensic examination of the car.

Also, it is likely though uncertain that the vehicle will be further examined, and how closely is an open question. From the same Post story:

As I previously stated, the car probably will be examined, by the driver’s insurance co., possibly by other police agencies, but I seriously doubt, judging by the news reporrts, that there is any justification for an in depth forensic analysis of the car or it’s contents. Any future inspections will likely be to confirm the results of the police investigation done at the scene.

As to the reports of a police chase, a truck running through the scene, the driver running w/o headlights, etc., I suspect that all these have been considered by the investigating officers and discounted. It’s common to encounter strange, often improbable, stories from witnesses at the scene of an incident, especially one involving trauma and death, experienced investigators are used to sorting out the facts and arriving at the true story.

Again, we’re only speculating here. Someone could hire an aggressive attorney, who could then have the car further examined by their own forensic experts, anything is possible, but I think any further investigation of this incident is going to concentrate on the participants and spectators involved in the racing.

[Barrett_Bonden]

Apparently the driver of the Crown Vic had a suspended license at the time of the accident.

[Green_Cymbeline]

Really good article in today’s Washington Post. It’s puts a really human face on some of the people who were hurt and killed. Also, a live online discussion is scheduled for 1:00 pm today. The Post’s online discussions are always really good & informative.

[threemae]

Just MHO, but doesn’t the driver bear some small level of responsiblity in driving into a cloud of smoke without being fully aware of what was behind it?

I’m not fully versed in the details of this incident, but that’s something I haven’t seen addressed.

[Mr.Moto]

[QUOTE=threemae]
Just MHO, but doesn’t the driver bear some small level of responsiblity in driving into a cloud of smoke without being fully aware of what was behind it?

I’m not fully versed in the details of this incident, but that’s something I haven’t seen addressed.
[/QUOTE]

Uh, sure. But he might not have seen the smoke, and even if he did he couldn’t have known a bunch of people were behind it STANDING IN THE STREET.

[Declan]

[QUOTE=threemae]
Just MHO, but doesn’t the driver bear some small level of responsiblity in driving into a cloud of smoke without being fully aware of what was behind it?

I’m not fully versed in the details of this incident, but that’s something I haven’t seen addressed.
[/QUOTE]

None what so ever.
Not from PG county , but in Toronto (time machine engaging)

At the intersection of Finch and Weston roads there was two large size strip malls with parking for at least several hundred cars. Canadian tire on the one side with a McDonalds and the sub shop with timmies on the other.

Every weekend from about May to November weather depending , there was always a gathering of street legals, trailored race cars, and people that brought their cars to be ogled, add into that mix the rest of us (oglers) , tow trucks , police from at least 3 different jurisdictions ,and two metro divisions.

Not every weekend was a race weekend , for the most part it was all talk and bragging, but when the moment came we all ran back to our cars and jockeyed for position as streams of cars poured out onto Finch for the run up to the high way.

When the designated race site was reached , everyone pulled off the road and both competing vehicles pulled up , got unloaded from the trailers and did their warm ups.

Like a normal drag race, they line up tits up and launch , bunch of seconds later , race ends and everyone else is heading back to their cars to return to the strip plazas to find out who won, by how much and how much $.

While I can talk to any cop now and pretty much get read the riot act about street racing , it appeared that there was tacit approval with minimal law enforcement. Nine times out of ten , they made an effort but never seemed to nail anyone , while when they did they handed out a variety of tickets depending on what infractions the boys could think of.

For that guy in the crown vic , for the amount of smoke that obscured a bunch of people, those cars had either just launched out of the hole, or they were using bleach to enhance the burnout, combined with winter weather and night time driving , he may have entered a temporary white out and creamed the people who moved onto the road to watch the cars racing in the distance.

Those folks that died , died by misadventure on their parts.
Declan

[DanBlather]

[QUOTE=Musicat]
It’s obviously a conspiracy to cover up a Palestinian-Jewish plot for world domination. Why else would you remove a car door without authorization and a press release? Too many things going on there to be police SOP. It’s a conspiracy, I tell you! Alert the Troofers!

:rolleyes:
[/QUOTE]
Well it’s the State Troofers who are in on it. I don’t think it was a car that hit the people, it’s obviously a missile.

[threemae]

[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
Uh, sure. But he might not have seen the smoke, and even if he did he couldn’t have known a bunch of people were behind it STANDING IN THE STREET.
[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure I buy that the driver of the Crown Vic is completely without blame. It’s assumptions like that which lead to those 87 car pile-ups in dense fog.

When the roadway is obscured by fog or smoke, the proper driving action to take is not to continue into that fog or smoke at full-speed with the assumption that the road surface is clear and suitable for travel, it is to slow down to a speed where one is capable of responsing in time to obstructions given the actual visibility of the conditions. How could you not see smoke? Wouldn’t any competent, functional driver realize that they in fact were unable to see the road ahead of them?

I’m not trying to assign all of the blame to him, but a part of the blame, yes.

[A.R.Cane]

I don’t understand why so many people want to find some way to place blame on this driver. He’s 20 years old and he has to live w/ the fact that he killed eight people, seems like a pretty heavy load for anyone, but at twenty it’s got to be that much harder.
The same people wanting to find him at fault seem to be ignoring the irresponible, illegal and, IMHO stupid behavior of those involved in the racing. These people not only acted stupid in causing this incident, but some of them are even admitting their behavior in the public forum, as if they’re some kind of innocent victims. I have little doubt that most of these idiots will be back out there in a few weeks, setting up, observing, cheering on and placing bets on more illegal street races. It’s unfortunate that people died here, but that doesn’t excuse their behavior, or justify trying to make the driver a scapegoat.

[GorillaMan]

[QUOTE=threemae]
When the roadway is obscured by fog or smoke, the proper driving action to take is not to continue into that fog or smoke at full-speed with the assumption that the road surface is clear and suitable for travel, it is to slow down to a speed where one is capable of responsing in time to obstructions given the actual visibility of the conditions. How could you not see smoke? Wouldn’t any competent, functional driver realize that they in fact were unable to see the road ahead of them?
[/QUOTE]

Hitting a sudden patch of dense fog, at highway speeds and on an unlit road, is something I’ve experienced many times, because there’s one particular road near hear which drops down across a creek which creates something of a microclimate in cold conditions. If you have no reason to expect it, you will plough into the fog at full speed without warning, because it’s not obvious in advance, even with full beams. I can only imagine how much more sudden it would be hitting a dark cloud of tyre (& whatever else) smoke as in this case.

[Mr.Moto]

[QUOTE=threemae]
I’m not sure I buy that the driver of the Crown Vic is completely without blame. It’s assumptions like that which lead to those 87 car pile-ups in dense fog.

…I’m not trying to assign all of the blame to him, but a part of the blame, yes.
[/QUOTE]

Notice I didn’t in my statement give him a blanket pass. Also, he was driving on a suspended license - I don’t think anyone here will support that one.

Still, you stand in the street, someone might hit you. That ain’t rocket science.

[threemae]

[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]

Still, you stand in the street, someone might hit you. That ain’t rocket science.
[/QUOTE]

I won’t disagree with that statement. I tend to agree that the overwhelmning fault here lies with the spectators.

GorillaMan, I have not experienced fog arising suddenly like that while driving, so I’ll defer to your impression of how difficult it is to react to and retract my statements about the responsibility of the driver if that is true.

[elbows]

There has to be a tad of responsibility for the driver who was driving under suspension, and due in court next week for being caught driving under suspension already once.

I’d have to agree there’s little they can do to him that doesn’t pale beside walking through the rest of your days knowing you took eight lives.

And I’m shocked that none of the survivors have come forward to identify the cars/drivers of the drag race. Were I the DA I’d be charging them all with something or other, obstructing justice perhaps? I want to know how do they sleep at night?

[zuma]

[QUOTE=elbows]
There has to be a tad of responsibility for the driver who was driving under suspension, and due in court next week for being caught driving under suspension already once.

[/QUOTE]

Why? Why should the fact he had a suspended license have anything to do with attaching responsibility? I haven’t followed this closely, but if he was speeding or negligent in some way, then he’d bear partial responsibility. Assuming he wasn’t driving in an unsafe manner, he bears no responsibility for the deaths, driving under suspension or no.

He’d only be responsible for driving on a suspended license, and should pay whatever fine that entails. And I wouldn’t buy any “well if he hadn’t been driving it wouldn’t have happened” argument.

I drove around with an expired license for a day last year due to renewal laziness. If I had been driving safely and responsibly on that day, and plowed into a group standing in the middle of a dark freeway, I’d feel horrible, but not responsible in any way.

[A.R.Cane]

I’m wondering what effect the suspended license can have on the civil side. Could a personal injury atty. build a case on that alone? Can it affect the driver’s insurance? I doubt either, but I’d like to hear any legal types comment.

[Mr.Moto]

[QUOTE=zuma]
I drove around with an expired license for a day last year due to renewal laziness. If I had been driving safely and responsibly on that day, and plowed into a group standing in the middle of a dark freeway, I’d feel horrible, but not responsible in any way.
[/QUOTE]

There’s a big difference between a suspended license and an expired one, isn’t there? Certainly the law treats them differently.

[zuma]

[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
There’s a big difference between a suspended license and an expired one, isn’t there? Certainly the law treats them differently.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t think there’s any difference in regards to responsibility for these deaths. If he had a valid drivers license, the outcome would be the same.

If he was an illegal alien wanted for murder, for that matter, it wouldn’t have any bearing on who was responsible for the tragedy.

The law may treat them differently, but the responsibility for driving on suspended or driving with expired should only address whatever fines they have. Assuming he was driving responsibly (again I don’t know if he was or not), he wasn’t responsible. The people standing in the middle of the freeway at 3 a.m. were.

[Mongo_Ponton]

As a judge made very clear to me once, yo can get a year in jail for driving on a suspended license in Maryland. Even if you’re from another state.

That said though even a year in jail isn’t as bad as carrying around killing a bunch of people no matter whose fault it was.

[Rick]

[QUOTE=threemae]
I’m not sure I buy that the driver of the Crown Vic is completely without blame. It’s assumptions like that which lead to those 87 car pile-ups in dense fog.

When the roadway is obscured by fog or smoke, the proper driving action to take is not to continue into that fog or smoke at full-speed with the assumption that the road surface is clear and suitable for travel, it is to slow down to a speed where one is capable of responsing in time to obstructions given the actual visibility of the conditions. How could you not see smoke? Wouldn’t any competent, functional driver realize that they in fact were unable to see the road ahead of them?

I’m not trying to assign all of the blame to him, but a part of the blame, yes.
[/QUOTE]

When you first get your license you have a full bag of luck and an empty bag of experience. You hope that your bag of experience fill up before you bag of luck gets empty.
In this case, the driver did not get his experience bag full before his luck bag ran empty.
A more experienced driver might/ probably would have braked as soon as they saw the smoke cloud.
Is it his fault he only has about 4 years experience, not 24?
From what I have read, I can’t lay the blame on the driver.