Namecalling doesn’t detract from the truth. The Confederate flag is the flag of the defense of slavery.
I did say “remember”, not “wallow” in our heritage. And I’ve never owned anything with a Rebel flag print on it, not even a Daisy Duke poster.
The Civil War was a terrible time of our country’s history for both sides. North and South have a lot to be proud of, and a lot to be ashamed of. Just don’t try to make the South and every Southerner out to be like one of the more rabid members of the Sons of the Confederacy, that’s all I ask.
Of course not. And there were good and bad on both sides.
Good grief. My father was the son of a Confederate soldier. When Dad was little, he used to hear his father and uncles talk about their experiences. When all was said and done, my Grandfather said that it would never have done for the South to have won the war.
As a grown man, Dad did not join Sons of Confederate Veterans. He refused to participate in any reenactments and hated them. He didn’t even like war memorials. It was 1976 before my father had a stone placed on my grandfather’s grave. It said simply: Soldier of the Civil War. No mention of the Confederacy.
When I went to college, there was a dorm on campus sponsored by the United Daughters of the Confederacy. If you were a descendant of a Confederate vet, you got a substantial discount on what you paid for your room. As careful with money as my Dad was, he paid for me to live in a much more expensive dorm as a form of protest.
When I began teaching, I asked to teach in an integrated school. They weren’t very common then. I spent the next 20 years teaching in that neighborhood because I chose to.
I say all of this to you as a preface to the rest of my post – so that you will understand where I am coming from.
I agree that we need to “get the fuck over it” and “move on.” But it is not as easy as it seems. Our economy has never completely recovered from the war – even after 138 years. And it affects Southern lives through and through but in subtle ways.
Every time a generalization is made about Southerners and how backward and stupid we are, the speaker is contributing to the problem. Most of us would really like to move on. Not being constantly ridiculed would be helpful.
Certainly there are those – both wealthy and poor – who seem to make a hobby of Rebel Rousing and indignation. I think they are shallow. I believe they are a minority. Most of us, I think, roll our eyes when we see a Confederate flag. It is an embarrassment to people of good will. Please remember that the fight to take down the flag in S.C. also originated in the South.
But if you want the South to move on, do more than just put up a statue of Lincoln in Richmond or in every city. Stop perpetuating stereotypes about Southerners based on the stupidity of one vocal faction.
BTW, I absolutely believe that the South is not like that, for the majority. It’s just a very few nutbars that you always hear about.
Isn’t it always that way?
I was born in Houston. I would say the deep south, in terms of large plantations and such, extended into east Texas and down the Gulf Coast a bit. Putting Houston on the edge. To the west, still dangerous frontier. Speaking for most southerners of ALL races, we have moved on.
Lets put slavery aside. Antebellum society was still rotten and evil. Freedom of speach was very limited, mainly agree with us or else get run out of town (the north was not perfect either, but had far more tolerance). Plantation owner saw themselves as aristocrats, and influenced governments into creating a de-facto aristocratic society. There was little industry, at least in comparison to the north. It was not very encouraged, unless it directly beneffited the plantation owners. The average farmer of the north was far more prosperous and self reliant, prefering to grow food, which at the time was likely the ownly profitable use of slaves. The average white farmer was poor as dirt.
I will save my southern pride for drunkedly singing along with Hank Williams Jr. songs,
This an opinion.
? And what of people who never owned slaves? I may be misreading what you have posted but what I’m reading is that the people of the South deserved to have their farms and cities destroyed, regardless of whether or not they owned slaves or supported slavery.
If they want to put up a statue I say let them. I don’t care at all. Even though he was not at all a good man(IMO) I think the SOuth would have been much better off with him in charge of reconstruction that the radical reconstructionists.
Happily.
I wiill be even more happy when southerners (and, yes, I have lived in the south) stop perpetuating sterotypes by allowing their politics to be dominated by the stupid of one vocal faction.[sup]1[/sup]
[suo]1[/sup[sub]Okay, one set of voacl factions with a realted set of concerns. I can’t help it. I am a slave to parallelism.[/sub]
And I would be happiest of all if my fingers would type the letters that my brain tells them to. Damned separationist fingers. Keep this up and it will mean war!!
According to the Sons of Confedertate Veterns, here is what they are about and what the civil war was about:
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Preserving the slaves’ liberty and freedom? Hardly. No more than revisionism. With respect to this position on slavery and the civil war, they should be ashamed of their forefathers and ashamed of themselves.
Richard Culpeper
Slavery was not the principle reason for either side to go to war. Even Lincoln was willing to sacrifice all or some of the slaves in order to preserve the Union. That was more important to him than individual freedoms.
Spiritus Mundi:
I hear that! And I totally agree. I’ve done my best not to “allow” it. Thank goodness that our new governor is an example of progress.
It was a horrific time. The nation was being ripped asunder.
Purposes were noble
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Fierce pride and resolute courage was seen on both sides even in the face of near certain defeat
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Families were broken
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and a lot of people died
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and died
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and died [sub]
The south was on the wrong side of history and in a larger sense was incorrect morally and politically about slavery. Having said this, a bit of personal if not historical sensitivity to the personal tragedy of so many noble and well meaning souls on both sides being sacrificed in a horrific slaughter would get us farther along the road than equating Confederate soliders with Nazi’s. The south may have been politically and socially misguided and the instution of slavery immoral and insupportable, but there were real husbands and wives, sons and daughters that died in that conflict who are still remembered to this day for who they were as individuals, and not for what side of the Mason-Dixon line they born on.
I’m many generations Southern on both sides of my family. I’ve encountered the “Southern heritage” types on many occasions, and almost invariably, they are racists. Don’t be fooled by them. The South prior to the Civil War was an evil place. Losing the Civil War did us a hell of a lot of good, by forcing us to give up slavery. There are some heritages that just plain need to be discarded.
While there are a lot of intelligent, forward-thinking people in the south, racism is still quite prevalent here, especially in the rural areas. I’ve seen it with my own eyes, and it ain’t pretty. Lotta racism up north, too.
The Confederate flag? Blowing my nose on it would be an insult to my snot.
All of America was an evil place, both prior to and after the Civil War.
Look at the industries post-war (roughly 1870 to … eh … mid 1900s?) and you will see a large gap between the industry of the north and the farming of the south. That financial gap, along with a lot of very bitter resentment for the actions of the north post-war (occupation of the states by troops, for one), still exists down here in many places. There is still very much a sense of "Good ol’ Boy"ism down here, though it is not nearly a prevalent as you might think based on shows that cater to stereotypes (Hee-Haw, Dukes of Hazzard, Mama’s family, Beverly Hillbillies … hell, Cops to an extent).
1870 to 1910. And that to an area that had already lost much of its economic prosperity (when you don’t have to pay your employees, your manufacturing price goes understandably down. When you do…). And add in the hyper-deflation of farm-based products along with an economy that simply could not put up with the northern post-war boom of railroads (and based trade) and the new (in the sense of Really Rather Big Now) steel and coal and iron and, a few years later, electricity. I would expound at length about exactly what this did to landowners in the South who didn’t have the money to be able to withstand a few losing years (as you can mine coal until you run the vein dry, but if you use the same land year in and year out and don’t replenish it, your product is going to suffer), but there are other people who can do it better’n I can.
That said, the attitude that The North is this big evil money-hoarding place is not so much the prevalent attitude as you (general) might think. I have not met many of those people down here, and those who do subscribe to it are more of the old guard and not really in positions of power.
And I have yet to see an outhouse down here:)
I was born in the South; I still live here; and I have no intention of leaving. I have ancestors who fought for the Confederacy. And I don’t get the whole “the South will rise again” hoo-ha. The Civil War was a terrible, awful, bloody thing, but slavery was worse. Slavery was an evil system that crippled blacks, poor whites, and wealthy slaveowners. And if it took the Civil War to end slavery, then as bad as the Civil War was, I still think it was worth it.
I’m sure we’ll never recover from the loss of potential revenue from slave labor. :rolleyes:
Yup, evil place. Gotcha. :dubious:
And exactly where did I say anything like “the South will rise again”? I was addressing the perpetual stereotype of the “Southerner” which apparantly continues to infect even this message board. The first post after the OP said, “You lost the war, get the fuck over it.” Am I supposed to just let that slide?
Hell no!
Subsequent posts revealed that statement was meant for the morons (once we pointed out that they are, indeed, a minority) who continue to blather stupidly about worshipping the Confederacy.
Did you bother to read my entire post and the post after that? You should have. I think the War Between the States was one of the foulest things to have ever happened in this country, regardless of what this historian or that scholar has to say about the “real” causes.
And we (America) are indeed still paying for that war and the two opposing systems that led up to it. Look at how polarized we are in or attitudes even now.
Slavery was an abomination. The racial tensions that still show up in the South prove that it should have been ended. Period. But, war was an awful way to settle an argument. Hatred and stupidty on both sides of the issue cost America dearly.
But, I see nothing wrong with having Southern Pride™. Being from Texas, many other Southern people I know accuse me of Texan Arrogance™.
Maybe they’re right. And maybe I really do have a blanket predjudice in my mind towards Yankees. I try not to show it. Until provoked. But, I am sick and tired of American society in general labeling the Southern Man as a racist, dumb fuck, sister banging, illiterate, toothless bastard. I’ll admit, the South does hold some of those poor people, (so does your home state) but we are trying to get past that. The fucking morons are just so much more newsworthy than us normals.
*Well I heard Mr. Young sing about us
I heard old Neil put us down
I hope Mr. Young will remember
Southern Man don’t need him around anyhow*