[QUOTE=Marley23]
Vito killed Jackie Jr. on indirect orders from Tony (whom he really doesn’t like). Yeah, the government could be interested in that.
[/QUOTE]
Tony’s so peripherally involved with Jacckie Jrs death the Feds would have nothing. Remember the guy who put the hit on Jackie Jr is dead too. There’s nothing linking tony to it.
[QUOTE=Maureen]
I agree with Stratocaster’s wife; considering the fact that Johnny Sack was ready to go to war over a comment made about his wife’s weight, it doesn’t seem out of character at all that he’d cry about being dragged off from his daughter’s wedding. He obviously dotes on his family.
[/QUOTE]
Yep, that was my wife’s thoughts, and I had to agree she has a point. That’s one of the things that has always been so interesting about Johnny Sack–what a ruthless, tough, powerful SOB he is, combined with the obvious tender affection he shows for his family, his wife in particular. Watch his eyes when she comes to visit him in prison.
I always remember that scene (last season, I think) where he came back to his house unexpectedly and found her scarfing down candy after she had put on such a pretense of dieting and how tough it was. How ashamed she was when he found her, and how intensely he communicated to her that the reason he was upset was not because she cheated on her diet, but because she would think he would care, that he might love her any less for it. So, yeah, I guess he might cry.
[QUOTE=Push You Down]
I thought the leatherman bit was a little much. I expected to see him sitting at the bar in his goombah wear and getting no play.
[/QUOTE]
Somebody may have already commented on this, but I think they were just trying to put him in a point-of-no-return position when the other wise guys see him. If he’s in his goombah clothes, he says something like, “There’s some fag SOB who owes me money in here, and I’m here to find him and slice him open,” or something equally offensive and credible. After all, that’s why the other wise guys were there. But if he’s dressed up like he was, it’s all over. “It’s just a joke!” Yeah, right.
I guess they could have had him in his goombah clothes, but caught kissing a guy. But then there’s no sputtering explanation possible, no possibility of him thinking the wise guys might keep their mouthes shut. (“He tripped and his tongue got caught on my bridgework. I swear!”)
[QUOTE=Stratocaster]
Somebody may have already commented on this, but I think they were just trying to put him in a point-of-no-return position when the other wise guys see him. If he’s in his goombah clothes, he says something like, “There’s some fag SOB who owes me money in here, and I’m here to find him and slice him open,” or something equally offensive and credible. After all, that’s why the other wise guys were there. But if he’s dressed up like he was, it’s all over. “It’s just a joke!” Yeah, right.
I guess they could have had him in his goombah clothes, but caught kissing a guy. But then there’s no sputtering explanation possible, no possibility of him thinking the wise guys might keep their mouthes shut. (“He tripped and his tongue got caught on my bridgework. I swear!”)
[/QUOTE]
I agree with all this. Putting Vito in full leather drag provides a bit of visual and comic shock (and the is a TV show, after all. Some of the decisions are going to be made for entertainment/dramatic value. It’s not supposed to be a documentary) and puts the character in a corner that he can’t BS his way out of.
It just occurred to me that Vito’s line in the first episode when he said that losing weight had allowed him to buy a “whole new wardrobe” now takes on a whole new meaning.
[QUOTE=Push You Down]
Tony’s so peripherally involved with Jacckie Jrs death the Feds would have nothing. Remember the guy who put the hit on Jackie Jr is dead too. There’s nothing linking tony to it.
[/QUOTE]
Yep, I agree. And remember, Tony was actually nudging Ralph to give Jackie Jr. a pass. But you’re right. The one person who could conceivably even indirectly connect Tony to Vito to Jackie is, well, dead. Makes this a tough case for the Feds to win.
BUT…Vito is a captain now, just like Pussy was. That’s a pretty close connection. Hard to believe his cooperation couldn’t make things hot for Tony on other matters, matters unrelated to Jackie Jr. If Vito flipped, it would be bad.
[QUOTE=Stratocaster]
Yep, I agree. And remember, Tony was actually nudging Ralph to give Jackie Jr. a pass. But you’re right. The one person who could conceivably even indirectly connect Tony to Vito to Jackie is, well, dead. Makes this a tough case for the Feds to win.
BUT…Vito is a captain now, just like Pussy was. That’s a pretty close connection. Hard to believe his cooperation couldn’t make things hot for Tony on other matters, matters unrelated to Jackie Jr. If Vito flipped, it would be bad.
[/QUOTE]
I just wondering, since Vito was made Capo, hasn’t he been reporting and getting orders mainly from Silvio?
[QUOTE=Stratocaster]
Yep, I agree. And remember, Tony was actually nudging Ralph to give Jackie Jr. a pass.
[/QUOTE]
But really if you watch the scene Tony is telling Ralph that he HAS to kill Jackie Jr. or else the hammer is going to fall on him for getting Jackie into the business. Tony’s word choices and emphasis are very clear.
Ralph has this great “Holy fuck, did Tony just tell me I have to kill his dead best friend’s kid?” look on his face as he leaves the scene.
[QUOTE=Push You Down]
But really if you watch the scene Tony is telling Ralph that he HAS to kill Jackie Jr. or else the hammer is going to fall on him for getting Jackie into the business. Tony’s word choices and emphasis are very clear.
Ralph has this great “Holy fuck, did Tony just tell me I have to kill his dead best friend’s kid?” look on his face as he leaves the scene.
[/QUOTE]
Hmm. I didn’t hear it that way, but maybe I’m wrong. I thought Tony had great affection for Jackie Sr., which translated into his “nudge.” That whole “It’s your call, Ralph, if you want to give him a pass,” when it was a no-brainer, whack-him situation.
[QUOTE=Stratocaster]
Hmm. I didn’t hear it that way, but maybe I’m wrong. I thought Tony had great affection for Jackie Sr., which translated into his “nudge.” That whole “It’s your call, Ralph, if you want to give him a pass,” when it was a no-brainer, whack-him situation.
[/QUOTE]
Ralph actually starts the conversation with a "Eh, I kinda wanna give him a pass on this one Ton’. Tony does agree that’s its Ralph’s call, then proceeds to talk sometimes direct and sometimes roundabout how Jackie shouldn’t have ever gotten involved in the business, that his FATHER never wanted him involved and how this whole thing would just break his heart, and now Jackie Jr. has shot at made guys, and now he’s a constant fuck up and that ultimately… Ralph is the one responsible. “You did everything you could to help him… didn’t you?” He’s basically telling Ralph that Jackie Jr. needs to pay for his failures… or Ton’ has the grounds to take Ralph out.
[QUOTE=Push You Down]
Ralph actually starts the conversation with a "Eh, I kinda wanna give him a pass on this one Ton’. Tony does agree that’s its Ralph’s call, then proceeds to talk sometimes direct and sometimes roundabout how Jackie shouldn’t have ever gotten involved in the business, that his FATHER never wanted him involved and how this whole thing would just break his heart, and now Jackie Jr. has shot at made guys, and now he’s a constant fuck up and that ultimately… Ralph is the one responsible. “You did everything you could to help him… didn’t you?” He’s basically telling Ralph that Jackie Jr. needs to pay for his failures… or Ton’ has the grounds to take Ralph out.
[/QUOTE]
I’ll have to see that episode again. I definitely heard it as Tony nudging Ralph not to whack him, not to question your recollection.
This is interesting. The guy who plays the head FBI guy, real name is Frank Pellegrino, his picture here
http://www.tradercracks.com/Gallery/non-sports/Sopranos/Autographs/Season1/Frank_Pellegrino.jpg
is part owner of Rao’s Restaurant. Mobbed up? You decide.
From The Village Voice.
http://www.villagevoice.com/nyclife/0614,robbins,72743,15.html
[QUOTE=Stratocaster]
I’ll have to see that episode again. I definitely heard it as Tony nudging Ralph not to whack him, not to question your recollection.
[/QUOTE]
Defnitely do. Also listen to the writer’s commentray on the episode. He confirms that Tony is telling Ralph to kill Jackie Jr… and he (Tony, not the writer) does it in a way that later Tony’s psychosis will really believe he had nothing to do with it.
[QUOTE=Stratocaster]
BUT…Vito is a captain now, just like Pussy was. That’s a pretty close connection. Hard to believe his cooperation couldn’t make things hot for Tony on other matters, matters unrelated to Jackie Jr. If Vito flipped, it would be bad.
[/QUOTE]
The feds weren’t just relying on Big Pussy to testify- he had to wear a wire, and try to get Tony to admit to RICO predicates on tape and explicitly. If we didn’t know Pussy was wired for sound through the scenes with Agent Thkip, it would be pretty obvious from the conversations Pussy was trying to lead.
Vito’s probably worthless to the Feds, unless he has hard evidence in addition to any corroborative testimony he might give.
My take on the leather: Vito has to live with such a carefully controlled façade of heterosexuality that the few times he gets to shed it, he goes to the opposite extreme. In Vito’s mind, that leather bar was about as “gay” as you can get. If he lived in a more accepting environment, he might have a more mundane sex life.
(I also agree that it made it impossible for him to deny his orientation. I’m just proposing an in-show explanation.)
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
I think if it had been staged they would have done a better job coming up with some sort of provocation. They bodyguard would have pretended to lip off or something. As it was, Tony just contrived something totally lame out of thin air. It smacked of lack of planning. Plus, Tony was shown considering some of the other guys, looking at their biceps, asking Bobby how much he weighed, etc. I think it was supposed to be clear that he was trying to decide which one to take down.
[/QUOTE]
My take was that Tony wasn’t so much sizing them up as he was looking at them all and realizing that he was turning soft and needed to do something … the kid was the obvious choice.
Also, I was impressed with the vomiting… much more realistic than when Adrianna let loose in the conference room.
[QUOTE=What the … !!!]
My take was that Tony wasn’t so much sizing them up as he was looking at them all and realizing that he was turning soft and needed to do something … the kid was the obvious choice.
[/quote]
I got the distinct impression that Baccala almost got the beat down-- Tony asked what he weighed (265), then he looked at Paulie’s biceps, rethought him as the target, looked at the bald guy… Probably figured that Penne (of whom he seemed fond before this) wouldn’t get any back up from the other guys and since he isn’t in the family and is big-looking, kicking his ass would make the best show of strength for Tony.
In rewatching, Tony saying that Vito hadn’t returned his calls was NOT in next week’s preview but at the end of this one, right before the beating of Penne. Silvio then responded that Vito called him “the other night,” not yesterday. Some time had passed since the wedding, then, which means Vito had time to get outta town.
I was sure Vito was going to go off the guys, not himself. I was surprised to find him along in a room with a gun. But I guess if he wanted to silence them, he’s already missed his chance.
Yeah, he missed his chance the moment he didn’t follow them out of the bar and take care of them immediately. An hour later he can’t be sure they didn’t tell somebody.
Just rewatched it tonight. Interesting scene with Carmela going down the drive-way to pick up the newspaper. Symbolic of her accepting her role in the “business”?
Next week ought to be interesting though I have a feeling that the Italian hit-men are going to screw-up somehow.
I’m still annoyed that Rusty (Frankie Valli) has suddenly become a player.
Some good points and speculations have already been made, and I can’t add anything new or exciting there from my own family’s conjectures. But I can’t watch an episode this season without having this major thought lurking in my mind: how does all this play toward a finale to be seen in future years as the most astounding finale in TV history? You just know that Chase and the Writers and possibly (probably?) producers, directors, cast and crew, are all pitching in ideas for how to tie this series up with a bow the likes of which we have never seen before.
(This may all be wishful thinking on my part, but I am aware that the acclaim for this program has exceeded any I have ever watched with any degree of regularity. I never got into MAS*H or Seinfeld or Newhart or any of the earlier shows that have risen to icon status over the years since their closings. The only other show I cared much for was a dismal disappointment: Twin Peaks. And I just can’t permit myself to think Chase & Co. would spoil everything they’ve built like Lynch did.)
The build-up in the Johnny Sack situation, Vito’s rise to prominence, Paulie’s bad news about his mother, even Bobby and Janice’s marital issues, all seem to be leading somewhere that I can’t yet decide on. I sense we’re going to find each of the major players (Junior, Meadow, AJ, Chris, Carmela, Melfi) as well as the minor players who have been around the longest (Paulie, Sil, Hesh, Artie, Charmaine, Ro, Vito, Johnny Sack) along with characters yet to be introduced or enlarged (such as the new hitmen already mentioned to be coming aboard) having his or her arc well established for the Big Ending. I don’t foresee any useless hits or maimings (Paulie’s knee-capping Barone, Jr. is a critical issue I suggest) simply to assuage bloodlust in the portion of the audience only interested in body counts. Rather I see a Hamlet, Macbeth, or even King Lear morality tale in the brewing.
Some major shit is going to hit the fan, all in one clump. We’re going to watch as the turds are stacked for the Big Drop later in the season, or maybe even after the hiatus. I’m personally enjoying how the tension is being built.
Other shows (The Shield, Thief to name two) seem to be catching on to the idea that a slow build is good TV. If nothing else comes from The Sopranos hit status, I hope it’s the idea that there are people who want to see intelligent dramas and who are bored with Reality TV, American Idol, and yet another stupid sitcom following in the I Love Lucy mold.
Damn, I will miss this show.