In my time here, I’ve read a lot of spectacularly idiotic opinions on this board. And now I’ve just read a few more.
For the record, I never had a belt used on me and yet somehow made it to middle age with a reasonably successful career and without a criminal record. Just dumb luck, I guess. Oh, yeah, and in case Joe_Cool is wondering, I’ve never felt the need for therapy and I can’t even remember what I wanted for my 11th buirthday, or whether I got it or not.
And frankly, I can look around at the people I’ve known since childhood and see no particular evidence that the ones who were beaten with objects by their parents turned out ‘better’ in any meaningful sense, than those who weren’t.
I’d have to say that in my 48 years of observation that the presence or absence of light corporal punishment of children has no particular bearing on what sort of values a child grows up with. Excessive corporal punishment, however, does seem to have an adverse effect. IMO, striking children with objects, or infliction of pain to the point of injury, is excessive. End of story.
Spanking will not world proof a child. There is no cause and effect correlation here. The idea that spanking world-proofs a child is a luxury delusion that can be collected as an ego booster.
The fact of the matter is that the issue of spanking comes down to straight desire on the parents behalf, rather than necessity.
Just because a child didn’t use an uncovered socket, and you happened to spank them thinking that this is the reason they didn’t do it; has no actual bearing in light of parents who choose to cover socket outlets. Some people, believe it or not, actually think far enough ahead to realize:
“If I don’t cover my socket outlets and believe that there may be a possibility that a child will wander towards it; and as such will be required to spank them so that they won’t touch the outlet when I’m in the room; then I am proving nothing to the child except that they are required to engage in certain behaviors in secret; away from other people who do the same thing. I also will have the wonderful opportunity to give myself a counter-intelligent gossip opinion of integrity so that people will smile and I can have friends and further my own career. I will also be able to prove to my own mind that I am more mature than the child, as I can physically manipulate it; giving me the opportunity to consider myself an adult in a cognitive sense. This will affect my image presentation to the general public who looks for synthesized evidence of maturity validation; and as such is the proper thing to do, as it makes everybody happy. Then I can post my opinion on a message board and gather the pansy perspectives that all of my child-friends are convinced of as well; and we can all celebrate in our glory of being able to predict the real world, spank children and laugh.”
Of course, not covering a socket while planning to have a child can be much more useful than this; but that would be a generalized purpose for it. Just because YOU are ignorant about cause and effect does not mean that others aren’t. What to you is playing a good game, is to others merely a delusion that you’ve taken from lack of pressure upon your behavior; the actual pressure to strain knowledge from statistical luck - from a cognitive luxury to bask in uninherent glory through allowed non-transparency. Passing this along to a child will make them extremely susceptable to those who understand your whole existence as a petty move; and can use this world outlook against your child - bypassing their consent to prove their consent, just like you always have.
Your entire will and ego is nothing but a move to some people to wreak havok upon the world at large and use their child as a tool to do it. The real world has much more intelligence in it then to imagine that a child with a simulated ego will somehow survive or add any value to the bringing about of their existence.
I think, perhaps, that Joe_Cool has unwittingly provided the clearest evidence of what becomes of children who are excessively spanked. His attitude - aggressive, nasty, and reactionary - is the best argument I’ve heard so far for not striking children.
Thank you, Joe_Cool, for proving the point. Perhaps others will learn from you.
JD I really don’t accept your apology. I understand you don’t a leg to stand on and didn’t even attempt to explain yourself, so you had to resort to attacking me professionally.
Bravo.
If I reported a parent for what I considered abuse, I’d be following the law. Did you read that part? The part where I’d be sent to prison or fined if I didn’t report the abuse? From your vitriol here and in other threads, I definately would not feel comfortable discussing your use of a belt on your child with you personally. I would probably report you to my administrator and let them deal with you.
Perhaps you’d be better off sending your child to a private school where the teachers used corporal punishment? Perhaps you’d find less conflict in your life that way.
Joe_Cool, immediately after a Moderator warned you, you said:
Then you realized that was pretty bad timing – as if it’s ever okay to toss around insults like that in Great Debates. You apologized. But apparently you didn’t really mean it, because you followed up soon after by quoting kevja and saying:
So let me make myself quite clear. This behavior will not be tolerated here.
I figured it was because she didn’t offer an apology, and therefore you’re not entitled to accept one from her. She apologized (I assume to the moderator, perhaps to the board in general) only for the harshness of her tone, nothing more.
Don’t fall all over yourself to reject an apology that hasn’t been tendered. It makes you look silly.
Just to confirm, Anahita, I did make an actual apology, but it was not directed to you! My apology was directed to the Mods for using harshness on the board.
From what you said, it seemed like you were the type of teacher who puts her nose where it doesn’t belong. I absolutely believe that if you think that a childs life is in danger you should take the precausions anyone would take. The problem I have is when a person hears a child say that she/he was spanked, and a bunch of people get their panties in a bunch over something that is nothing but a mere spanking.
You and a bunch of people here on the board act as if someone is fist fighting a child or drawing blood from their noses. What is wrong with you people. Did you see anyone type that? You people need to get a grip. You guys are too uptight. slight hijack
Personally, I think threads like these are just an opportunity for pity parties. Some people seem to see these threads as an opportunity to have everyone feel sorry for them as well as feel sorry for themselves. Not just with this topic either. God, so many pity party stories. Life goes on, get over yourself
Like many others on this board, you take a tiny stone and make it into an imaginary mountain. Why you guys do this is a mystery to me, but not suprising.
It is amazing how brave people are behind a keyboard. Someday you may be face to face with someone who will not take such shit, and is not afraid to pay the consequences. Be careful what you say and do to people in person. You may regret it.
The only conflict, you speak of, that I deal with is people like you. Other than that, I have a fiance who loves me even more than I can imagine. I couldn’t have found a nicer guy. He is very handsome and extremely intelligent.
My daughter is beautiful, smart, and healthy. She is very happy. One of the most outgoing children I know. She is a part of Daisy Scouts, she has lots of friends, she loves God, and she knows that her family loves her.
As for me, I am attractive, healthy, happy, and about to marry the person I love more than anything.
I don’t want a pity party from anyone. I am confident and I don’t need anyone to stroke my ego.
In the beginning, I wanted to send my daughter to a private school but it was way to expensive. I figured that a private school would be fine as long as I stayed involved. I was right. The teachers teach and I parent.
I think I’ve said several times, that if I suspected a child was being ‘beaten with a belt’ or spanked severely (enough for them not to be able to sit down), that I would consider that abuse and would intervene. I never said that if a child said they were spanked, that I’d get my underclothing in a bunch. Please do not put words into my mouth or twist them to suit your own needs.
There is really no way to determine what the long term effect of physical forms of discpline are, as there are too many other factors that complicate the results of research. There is no way to determine that spanking did or did not result in a long term negative affect on a child. You cannot isolate just one of the variables - in this case, the use of physical forms of discipline - that are involved in a child’s development (i.e. breastfeeding/bottle feeding, religious/non-religious upbringing, single parent/married couples, socio-economic factors, etc.) in order to determine which factors were influential and which were not. It’s not as simple as child + spanking —> well-adjusted adult.
We certainly will be able to find research that supports spanking/beating and other research will promote using alternative methods of discipline, so like someone said earlier, this discussion will go no further than personal antecdotes and attacks on those who disagree with us.
It’s not really a Great Debate in which I wish to participate any further.
I don’t think the “in school” part of this has been addressed yet.
For those who don’t know her, my sister is a third grade teacher in a public school in the Bronx. Many of her students say they are hit or “beaten” by their parents/guardians. Naturally, my sister can’t lay a finger on the kids and they know that. When they’re acting out, they’ll sometimes taunt her by saying “What are you going to do, hit me?” They aren’t afraid of other sorts of punishments, and they continue to act out. So my sister agrees that corporal punishment isn’t always effective – and can work against teachers – because it can’t be used in the classroom and substitutes don’t necessarily work.
Spanking itself does nothing. If a child walks into the room, the dad gets up, takes off his belt, and whacks the kid across the back, the kid will cry and run away… the only thing he learns is that his dad hits him for no apparent reason.
My parents are traditionalistic, and believe that spanking can only bring good things. From the times I remember getting spanked, I can honestly say that I thank my parents for some of the times, but not nearly all of them. Sometimes my dad was just tired from after work, and he heard that I got in trouble in school… 5 minutes later I was getting a spanking. The spanking itself never hurt, it was just that I was confused and afraid of my dad. There’s no hard feelings at all though, because he was doing what he thought was best for me. But this isn’t about my dad, it’s about whether or not kids should be disciplined using physical punishment…
I’d just like to say that spanking can emphasize the importance of a lesson, but it won’t make a lesson. Consequences are important, but the child needs to understand the seriousness of what they did wrong; that is the main thing.
I’m assuming that in the “old days” most parents got so frustrated with their kids that they got up and slapped them, or spanked them. They didn’t know how to get the stubborn, naive child to listen, so they did the only thing they could come up with, and hit them. The child may not do the “bad thing” again, but he will never know why.
The solution (if my brothers and I are any example) is to get the kid’s attention (by spanking if necessary, but nothing that really hurts the kid) and then explain a logical reason for why the child should not do what he/she did…
Of course that’s just my opinion, I could be wrong.
Vix, I know exactly the behavior you’re talking about - I’ve seen it. But good parenting will eliminate that as well (Keep in mind that many kids, in this day and age, will lie about being beaten because they think it’s cute that they can get their parents in trouble).
I was never hit by a teacher. I think I grew up right around the end of corporal punishment in school, along with the new-agey ways of “educating” smart kids, etc. And among the kids, there was a lot of joking about being able to do whatever we wanted because the teachers couldn’t hit us anymore, etc. But, my parents paid attention to what went on in my life. When I misbehaved at school and got into trouble, they knew. And if I was ever disrespectful to my teachers (and I was, once or twice), I answered to them for it. My parents taught me to be respectful to adults, and if I was ever rude or out of line, I was corrected.
For me, “We are calling your parents” was scary. No, not because I lived in terror of my parents and my childhood was rife with abuse, as I’m sure the SD Choir will say when they chime in. But because I knew that if I was wrong, I’d get punished. They listened to the teacher/principal, listened to me, and treated me fairly. My parents went to bat for me many times, and confronted teachers who treated me unfairly. When I was in the right, they supported me 100%, but I was out of line, I paid for it.
Unfortunately, too many parents these days are sue-happy. If a teacher calls to tell them that their child is misbehaving, the parents might threaten the teacher with lawsuits, accuse the teacher of being unfair or racist, and basically go on about how their poor little angel isn’t the problem, it’s the educational system. Well, news flash: Kids aren’t little angels. They do misbehave. And if they aren’t properly corrected and disciplined, they turn into little monsters that maltreat everyone they can get away with.
See, the problem in this thread is that so many people evidently take great joy in taking statements out of context and extrapolating their often deliberate misinterpretations into a perceived way of life.
Take the post above from TerryW, for example. He says things like
Well no shit! Are you sure? It’s this kind of thing that make me think people really have something wrong with them. And I don’t mean to insult people per se, it’s just that… Well, how the hell can you take what I said and extend it to mean that I salivate at the prospect of walking around and beating kids for no reason?! Where did I say that a spanking (or - horrors! - a belt) is the only way to solve a problem, and it should be used liberally and brutally? Where did I say that a beating is the only lesson that can be taught? Nowhere! But that’s the brush these geniuses are painting me with. And people are surprised that I’ve gotten a bit angry and defensive here. :rolleyes:
TerryW, I don’t mean to single you out and attack you in particular, you’re just the most recent one of many people to make that ridiculous assumption.
Vix, I hope things get better for your sister. There’s no excuse for kids to behave that way, and (you had to know this was coming. ;)) it’s the parents’ fault. Just between you and me, though, I suspect that most of those kids don’t get hit by their parents. Kids know how far they can push, and what they can get away with. When a child refuses to behave, tells the teacher that he can do whatever he wants because “You ca-an’t hit me, you ca-an’t hit me!” then I wouldn’t be surprised if that child does the same thing to his own parents. "I’m not eating peas tonight, or else I’ll tell School Nurse Anahita that you beat me!"
Kids are smarter than adults give them credit for. They know where the boundaries are, if they even exist. And they behave accordingly.
You say, flat out, that there is no way for you to tell whether there is any long-term, adverse effect on a child from spanking. Yet if you suspected a child was spanked with a belt, you’d attempt to break up a family? Based on your unfounded personal prejudices? That’s pretty fucked up.
Thank goodness. It’s not really a Great Debate to which you have contributed much, either.
Listen VERY closely, “JoeCool”… I don’t know who you are or what you have posted. I read the first post, and then stated my opinion! So you can forget talking about me, buddy!
When I said that “If a child walks into the room, the dad gets up, takes off his belt, and whacks the kid across the back, the kid will cry and run away” I was talking about a hypothetical situation.
Although your defensive attitude DOES lead me to believe that you feel guilty, and are trying to hide it.
once again: “that’s just my opinion, I could be wrong.”
a) your “hypothetical situation” stands on its own, and my response is still, “No shit.” Let me give you another hypothetical situation: You’re walking down the street, three guys you’ve never seen before jump from around the corner, beat you senseless with bats, then one pulls a gun and says “that’s what you get, asshole.” Your reaction is going to be to be scared and wonder who he is, let alone what you’re supposed to have done.
Again, the answer here is, “No shit.” Getting the shit beaten out of you with no warning and no indication as to why leads only to confusion, and anybody with half a brain knows that. Your hypothetical was utterly useless, because it only stated the obvious.
b) I’ve always thought it was a good thing to read more than one or two posts in a three page thread, maybe at least skim over it, so that you can have some sort of idea as to where the discussion is going. If it’s been going on for over a hundred posts, there’s a pretty fair chance that there’s a discussion happening. That way, you don’t drop your one post in a vacuum where it can be misinterpreted.
Just for the record, I don’t hide behind a keyboard Jersey Diamond. As a lifeguard, I witnessed a four year old boy at the pool one day with red welts across his back, and within MINUTES called Child Services trying to ‘break up his family’, and would have no hesitation in doing it again. Guess what? Mama had a record. I have also reported child abuse here in Chicago and Domestic Abuse in Rochester, New York. So if I did come face to face with you and you told me the hilarious story of whipping your kid with a switch until she had welts…rest assured I’d have you inspected inside of a day.
I also note your apparent bias that ‘a lot of kids lie about being beaten’. No doubt that will help you sleep at night…
So complain all you want that we’re a bunch of pity freaks, just don’t be too sure that everyone you spout off to is going to go along with your Good Ol’ Boy method of raising a child.
If her teacher had her shirt off or up for any reason, she better be prepared to explain herself or she would have a greater problem on her hands than she was prepared for.
If you must know, being that you are so concerned and it’s your business, :rolleyes: my daughter has never had any welts on her body.
Mind your business Guinastasia, and no, it is none of yours believe it or not.