Speak up and STOP the Mass Production

Great Debates
21

As you surmised, I am from the East. Wasn’t there a proposition or referendum on California’s ballot within the past few years that dircetly addressed this point, and relieved California of its obligations as to education and health care for illegal immigrants? I seem to recall something like this, but I don’t know the details. If it does, why is that law or limit not being enforced? For the purposes of the remaining discussion, I will assume that no such measure exists.

I am certainly relieved that your respect for Hispanics is undiminished.

I agree that it is irresponsible for anyone to have a child that they cannot afford to care for.

However, if it is the will of the people of California, it seems to me that they could easily pass laws that restrict benefits to illegal immigrants. If they have passed laws that the courts found unconstitutional, the people could also amend the state constitution.

In short, I suggest that if there is a problem extant, your fellow Californians have a ready solution available.

If they have not exercised that solution, I invite you to consider that perhaps not all Californians share your view of the magnitude of the problem.

It is not incumbent upon the Pope to revise his theological teachings in order to conserve the natural resources of California. The husbanding of those resources is properly a concern of the California legislature - and by extension, the people - of California.

If I were sufficiently disturbed, I might begin lobbying for Virginia to pass laws restricting benefits to those people who are employed, legal workers.

But I can’t imagine being that concerned. My taxes already go to a number of causes I find useless - and even repugnant. I suffer this burden with good grace.

Since you raise my own beliefs in your question, I will tell you that I believe people have every right to use the benefits available to them. If I were jobless and needed medical care, I would take advantage of welfare or any other benefit to which I was entitled. The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars, but here.

Do not blame the Hispanics - or indeed, any group or individual - for exercising those benefits to which the law entitles them. If you believe the law is unwise, then champion its change.

Disclosures:

I am:
A) Hispanic
B) Catholic
C) Employed and covered by an extensive private health-care plan

  • Rick Muñoz
22

Ok, two issues. 1.)skelton4947 obviously has racial prejudices to Latinos. 2.) I kinda agree with him/her on the Catholic-church-and-their stand on birth control. I understand the logic as I understand it: what if we prevent the inevitable second coming of Christ? (at least that’s what the local Archbishop gave as a reason) but if God is omnipotent, why is a little thing like birth control a problem? There’s been all sorts of cases of one sneakin’ past the guards. I just don’t get it. Please chalk skeleton’s OP as blatantly racist and move this to an intelligent discussion.

One must have chaos in oneself to give birth to a dancing star. -Nietzche

23

The logic of the Catholic church’s position is simple. Unfortunately, it is not subject to a dispassionate analysis.

The Church contends that in marriage, every act of sexual intercourse must be open to the possibility of creating life, since God’s gift of sexual expression was for the purpose of creating life. It does not contend you must have sex constantly (more’s the pity!) so family planning is permitted through the use of the rhythm method - natural family planning.

It is, alas, impossible to disprove that basic assertion. It falls into the category of, “I get to make the rules.” You may disagree with the rule as either a bad social policy, or theologically unsound, or economically damaging. But the Church has authority to make her own rules, binding on Catholics. With this, you cannot argue.

  • Rick
24

Bricker: The California law you are talking about is Proposition 187 and it was ruled unconstitutional on the grounds that immigration policy is a federal issue.

I’ll add that it was enacted during a time of strong anti-immigrant sentiment; I’m not sure the voters today would approve it. For one thing it wouldn’t have every Republican in the state behind it now that they’ve recognized the importance of the Latino vote.

I’ll also add that California does a piss-poor job of funding its public schools and if we didn’t, the number of illegals attending them wouldn’t be such a problem.

25

Now I’m curious. Why is the Church a “she”? It’s not 'cause those Gothic spires look like cocktail dresses, I hope ;).

26

Psycat 90: My response was to your…speaking of uneducated people, how many do I have. Now if someone disagrees with your point makes them uneducated you might check out the clarity of you thinking. I have 2 children.

Psycat90 and David B: I mentioned Hispanics because here in California, Millions of them have entered Ca. illegally. If it had been Canadians or people from any other country, I would have mentioned them and omitted Hispanics. I regrettably threw in or anyone else to indicate that it was not the culture or ethnicity of the people but that anyone who continues to propagate because the Catholic Dogma states that they must not use any contraception and the financial care of the babies that are borne as a direct result of this belief puts a tremendous strain on those of us in California who must pay for the care of these children and families.

To Swimming Riddles: Accusing me of being a Racist is why so little is done to change these events. It is very easy for you to say what you said since you are from Vermont. I want to hear from you if this happened in your state from illegal immigrants of any ethnicity. The majority of the people that are illegal immigrants = primarily Hispanics are uneducated and are generally the ones who have the largest number of babies.

27

Skelton, your estimate of “millions” of undocumented Latinos is high. Obviously nobody knows for sure, but the INS itself estimates two million illegals total in California. Certainly most of these are Latino but not all of them.

So yes there are a lot of undocumented Latinos here, but probably not “millions.”

28

Ruadh: The figure that I read just three or 4 days ago was 3and 1/2 million illegal aliens are in Cal. Even if you are correct, it in no way alters the significance of my comments.

29

As you surmised, I am from the East. Wasn’t there a proposition or referendum on California’s ballot within the past few years that dircetly addressed this point, and relieved California of its obligations as to education and health care for illegal immigrants? I seem to recall something like this, but I don’t know the details. If it does, why is that law or limit not being enforced? For the purposes of the remaining discussion, I will assume that no such measure exists.

There was a law that closed schools to illegal immigrants, but if I remember correctly, it was declared unconstitutional because laws pertaining to immigrants and immigration can only be made by the federal government.

Life is a tragedy for those who feel and a comedy for those who think.

30

Skelton: It would be easier to judge the validity of your information if you would provide your source.

Maybe not, but you lose credibility when you attempt to bolster your argument with questionable statistics.

31

Ruadh: I don’t and can’t recite the source of statistics that I read or hear. I don’t want this to become a pissing contest. If you truly believe that your figure of 2,000,000 illegal aliens in Cal is correct, please tell me how this defeats my contentions.

And while we are on the subject, Ruadh, would you be willing to pay the taxes to support medical care and welfare payments to illegal aliens?

32

Hm, OK. You post an unsupportable statistic twice, refuse to provide a source for it and claim that asking you to do so is engaging in a “pissing contest.”

You’ll go far in GD, Skelton.

Doesn’t bother me a bit. I do live in California, you know. Obviously we’re not all as outraged about it as you are.

I don’t believe the amount of money going to medical care and welfare payments for illegal aliens is nearly as large as you seem to think it is anyway. And don’t bother telling me it is unless you have a reference to back your claim up.

33

Ok, folks, lets clear up the points of this debate. First, I do not know if Mr/s Skelton is a racist. The opening post certainly leads credence to the views of you who believe so. I do not know. What I propose is that we give Skelton the benifit of the doubt, and re post the question in another way, because it is something that I have often wondered as well. So, here is the question, as I see it:
Do you feel that it is socially irresponsible of the Catholic Church to preach a doctrine against birth control, when many people in the lower economic strata of our ( and other ) societies are, as a result, saddled with a large number of children that then strain their, and societies resources? Why then does the Church continue to put forth as doctrine something which can be realisticly said to make the lives of its members worse?
Things to think about: The doctrine against Birth Control in the Catholic Church only dates back about 30-35 years. Since it was enacted, there has been a sharp decline in the number of practicing Catholics in the United States. Some high church officials have stated that the doctrine was one of the worse mistakes the Church has made. I can and will offer sources for the above statements w/in the next few days. I know where they are, I just gotta go get them.
Oh, and 1 final point. Technically, 1,000,001 people or more is correctly refered to as " millions".

Cecil said it. I believe it. That settles it.

34

Wierd Dave: Thank you for expressing my OP in a clear and concise fashion. Beautifully done and I’m dead serious.

I find it interesting that some debators as ruadh insists on a reference to the use of the word millions when he himself states 2 million illegal immigrants. I challenge ruadh or anyone else to show me that the great majority of illegal aliens are NOT Hispanics in California. If it offensive to you all, then just substitute illegal aliens and omit any reference to Hispanics.

What I find fascinating is how the majority of voters in Ca voted to have Ca taxpayers NOT have to support illegal aliens as above while so few Calif members have declined to comment.

The Catholic Church wields powerful influence over many of the families who continue to pop out babies knowing that Ca taxpayors are going to support them. And I feel it is morally wrong to preach to these people that it is sinful to use contraception.

Most of the Catholic hospitals in Ca will not allow abortions and many will not allow sterilization procedures.

I’m not putting down Hispanics, Catholics, or the Catholic religion. I am against this particular doctrine.

35

Skelton, I for one in no way construe your comments about Hispanics as being racist. I live in Los Angeles and know that your comments are based on fact and not racism.

I agree with your premise, and I as well as the vast majority of my friends/acquaintances feel that it is unfair that the illegal immigrants have child after child knowing full well that they will be financially compensated by the State… anotherwards the taxpayers of California.

Let’s put this in a way that others not living here may understand. Assume that you live in a neighborhood with appx. 1,000 families. Assume that of those 1,000 families… that 5% need financial assistance, in which the other 95% have to contribute financially towards. O.K., no problem these things happen…let’s all pitch in to help those less fortunate.

Then, let’s assume this neighborhood has an influx of illegal immigrants from the City of Anywhere. For every child that a couple from Anywhere has, you and the other 999 families need to share in their financial responsibilities for bearing and raising each of their children.

Would this be O.K. with you? Would you say “Sure, let them have 20 children, it is not up to us to tell them they can’t”. “We are politically correct and liberal minded…we should not say a word in dissent… I don’t care if my children suffer due to this, let’s just keep ponying up our dollars”.

I say BULLSHIT. It is not fair…It is not right. I am not sorry if I am not politically correct.

In finality, I know many illegal immigrants of Catholic persuasion that come to California and do not give two cents about Catholic Doctrine. They have child after child, only for the self gratification and financial rewards. If the financial rewards constituted not having more than two or three children, I guarantee they would be buying cases of Trojans.

I don’t care if these immigrants are Jews, Germans, Egyptians or Mexican’s. Race has no bearing on the subject. I am not a Disciple of Pat Buchanan. Of course…this is only my humble opinion.

36

Just a quick note:
weirddave

Not quite. Here is some better information on the history of the church’s position on birth control.
http://members.aol.com/revising/history.html

Probably doesn’t matter to the discussion here, but I did want to mention it.

37

I agree that it’s not fair that illegal aliens get the benefits of our society, in effect, as a reward for their illegal acts. But what are you going to do? If an illegal alien is seriously injured in a crash do we say, “Let him bleed. He’s illegal.”?

What about letting their children go to school? Many of the children are born here and are American citizens. As native-born Americans, would you have them deported? Or should we just deport the parents and make the babies wards of the state?

38

Vermont has one of the largest refugee populations per-state resident in the country. Because we have so much available land, we get Bosnians, Croatians, and Veitnamese. Very few of them speak English, very few of them are here for more then a few years. So yes, I know about immigrants. But I’m not xenophobic.

If your issue is over-population, call it that, don’t blame Hispanics and “non-Hispanics.”

One must have chaos in oneself to give birth to a dancing star. -Nietzche

39

Thanks. Here is what I was specifically talking about, from your link:
1968. Humanae Vitae. Pope Paul VI’s response to the Birth Control Commission, in which he re-affirmed the pre-Vatican II teaching that “the Church, calling men back to the observance of the norms of the natural law, as interpreted by her constant doctrine, teaches that each and every marriage act must remain open to the transmission of life.” The encyclical also affirmed the unitve aspect of human sexuality, giving it equality with the procreative. Theologians and even councils of bishops criticized the teaching for its heavy reliance on a narrow interpretation of natural law, and for rejecting the recommendations of the Birth Control Commission.
It was basically the churches response to the pill- easy, effective birth control. For modern times, it codified into doctrine prohibitions against birth control. Admittedly, before this time( roughly speaking ) sex generally did = birth, but still, the doctrne has not been on the books that long.

Cecil said it. I believe it. That settles it.

40

Are you Native American? If not, then you are just as much an alien as Mexicans. The only difference is that the immigration laws have changed. When my great grandfather crossed at Ellis Island, he got off the boat, changed his name, and BAM. Welcome to America.

I totally understand the problem of Mexican women crossing the border, having their baby and crossing back into Mexico, just to get the kid American citizenship. That’s a real problem. But who are we to say that a family who is living in this country, contributing in thier own small way to the economy, deserve less of a chance at citizenship and the “American dream” than our ancestors did? Are they breaking the law by being here? Yep. Is it fair that people paying income tax have to pay for those who are not? Nope. But it’s what the constitution says. All men are created equal, remember?

One must have chaos in oneself to give birth to a dancing star. -Nietzche