Well, I feel it is morally right.
A gratuitous assertion may be equally gratuitously denied.
- Rick
Swimming Riddles: There are probably tens of millions of people from almost every country in the world that would love to raise their family in the USA but these people are subjected to rules and regulations far more severe than those that illegally enter this county.
Tell me, Swimming, Are you in favor of opening the borders to everyone who wants to sneak over?
Now lets get into the “racism” issue. Vietnamese without stereotyping them in California are well known to work extremely long hours and they generally succeed. Latinos are also very hard workers but they mainly seek employ doing work which pays them not enough to possibly feed, educate, and provide health care to their family. IT
CERTAINLY ISN’T THEIR FAULT. Lets get back to my original thought: If the Catholic Church is willing to help educate, feed, clothe, and provide medical care for anyone whose lack of use of contraception is because of their strict adherence to the Catholic doctrine referable to this thread, then I’ll take my fingers off my keyboard and do something else more worthwhile.
skelton: You didn’t answer one question, would you tell people to let an illegal immigrant die if they were in a car crash, just because you don’t want to pay for their medical expenses?
It’s worth the risk of burning, to have a second chance…
Doobieous: Normally I would not respond to such a rediculous question. The answer: of course not.
You have no idea how many of my Ob-gyn physician friends have stayed up all night long to insure the health of mother and baby,
put up with all the stresses therewith, risk being a malpractice suit if something doesnt go right, follow through from beginning to end all for about 469.00.
This entire thread is not to let someone die or deliver babies in a less appropriate manner than Ms. loaded-with-insurance. It is about reducing the number of babies born for reasons that I mentioned all through this thread. It is not fair to those babies in question, it is not fair to the school system, it is not fair to the taxpayers. My comments here will change nothing…its an attempt to get some of you think about this situation more than whether or not I have a source for saying “millions of illegals” and whether I would let an illegal alien die if he was in a car crash.
If thats all you get out of this thread, then this whole thing is a waste of time.
Skel, I do not think you are a racist, and I.like you, I do not favor runnaway population explosions, even those which are in the name of religion.
I do, however, think your premise is factually flawed, at least with regard to your concerns about uneducated, Catholic immigrants in Califorinia, most of whom come here from south of our border, being a drain on our public resources in this state.
It has been my observation, that these individuals are not freeloaders who come here to take advantage of our educational and medical care systems. THESE FOLKS COME HERE FOR JOBS! They live and raise families here because there are jobs here. These people find those jobs, often their ones U.S. citizens don’t want, and they work. They work hard and they don’t collect unemployment, social security, public assistance, or SSI.
Sure, when they get sick, usually real sick, they have no choice but to use our indigent medical care system. And when they have children who reach school age, they enroll them in public schools. But that’s about as far as it goes. They don’t pan handle. (Try to recall the last time a Hispanic asked you for a hand-out? ) Even though these people are among the most visible people on the streets, they’re there either looking for work or selling something,… oranges, peanuts, etc.
Furthermore, chances are the clothes you are wearing right now were made by some of these “illegal” laborers. The reason you paid $35.00 for that shirt instead of $90.00 is because these people are willing to work more cheaply than U.S. citizens. For the same reason, the fruit in the bowl on your dinning room table cost you a lot less than it would have cost but for this cheap source of labor.
In short, these people do contribute in a big way to our economy in California, and you and I benifit from them as much as, if not more than, they benifit from us.
Irony Alert:
Adherence to Catholic doctrine is given as the reason for the high birth rate among Latinos. If adherence to religious faith is so strong in these communities, why are there bars on the windows of homes in these same communities?
It must be to prevent theft from the heathens in the suburbs.
I think it’s fairly obvious that having bars on one’s windows has more to do with living in an impoverished neighborhood with high crime rates than it does with religion.
Well, Disreputable, your first post, made the very day you registered, and you’ve chosen an uplifting observation indeed.
As Holly correctly points out, the poverty in an area is a much more rleiable indicia of its crime rate than the religious practices thereof.
- Rick
Ah, but if poverty is the driver behind breaking one of your God’s commandments, why would it not be an impetus toward breaking a decree set forth by men in God’s name?
Clearly, poverty, for even the least informed among us, should be a great motivator in limiting the amount of new life you CHOOSE to bring into this world and - hopefully - assume responsibility for.
And get this - limiting family size would reduce poverty among impoverished Catholics worldwide and hence reduce the need for violating one of God’s sacred commandments.
If one is or purports to be a believer, whose word should carry more weight - JPII or God? In other words, what is more sinful - using a condom or stealing?
Skelton:
Most illegal immigrants are VERY hesitant to see a doctor for anything but the most serious of ilnesses. The reason: They fear getting caught and deported. Most Illegal immigrants come to the US to find WORK not to “use up” health insurance.
Put yourself in their place for a moment, 'k? If you had the choice of either trying to get to the great land north of the border and getting a better life. Or, choosing to stay in a place where you can barely afford to feed your children, the police are corrupt, and the crime rate is high. Would you attempt to enter that other country illegally?
Also, many of these illegals do work that most Americans would refuse to do (like picking vegetables, and harvesting lettuce) for wages that are quite low. Tell me, would you work 10 - 12 hour days bending over picking strawberries, from sun up to the afternoon, and getting paid low wages? So they aren’t all sitting on their asses sucking in welfare, having babies, and doing nothing.
It’s worth the risk of burning, to have a second chance…
I’m sorry, disreputable, but I saw you palm that card.
You asserted that a great deal of crime happens in Hispanic neighborhoods, and that that Hispanics are devotedly Catholic to the extent of following the Church’s teaching on birth control.
But that doesn’t imply that every family using birth control is also out stealing. In fact, I would suggest that the commonsense solution to the apparent contradiction you pose, above, is that the families following the dictates of the Church are, in fact, not stealing with any great frequency. It is unlikely, as you point out, that someone would choose to follow this Church teaching while ignoring the Seventh Commandment.
In short, poverty is the reason for the high crime. Catholic doctrine may be the reason behind some of the pregnancies. But you haven’t shown that the same people are responsible for both – just that they live in the same zip codes.
In fact, let us discount unwed pregnancies from any equation that purports to analyze the effect of Catholic doctrine on brith rates, since the Church clearly teaches that sexual intercourse outside marriage is sinful. If a couple chooses to disregard that teaching, a fortiori they will be inclined to ignore the ‘no birth control’ rule, right?
Even without that limitation, I assert that you have shown no correlation between Hispanic people that steal and Hispanic people that follow Catholic teaching on family planning.
To answer your final question, I would contend that stealing is “more” sinful than using birth control… but as I’ve shown above, the two are not meaningfully related.
- Rick Muñoz
Hey, Skelton. You used the word “breeders”. Why don’t you substitute the word “welfare mothers?” And omit the word “Hispanics”. Now the repercussions won’t be so severe.
Mexicans, by nature, dote on large families. All relatives support the up bringing of the children. These families are normal size in Mexico, but considered large families by the North American. You and I know that these children may not receive proper nutrition or education, but they do receive plenty of love. You may not find bicycles or Barbie Dolls in their homes, but they do get by in a fashion that they are accustomed to. Once they cross the Rio Grande, we will call them Hispanics, hard working, and still family oriented, looking for jobs, not welfare.
Is there a possibility that the Americanizaion of the Hispanic, meaning accumulation of material goods and American morals, will lead to smaller families?
Tergie and Dubiouus: Since illegal aliens are willing to work for cheap wages and therefore the cost of goods durable or otherwise is less, is that why its ok with you? If so, then allow Asians and Blacks to enter the country illegally by the tens of thousands. Don’t you think these people also want to improve the lives of their families by coming into the US? In China many people work for 2 dollars a day or less.
Your statement that the medical system is utilized by only the VERY ILL illegal aliens is totally untrue. MediCal = MediCaid which is given to lower socio-economic groups whether they are illegals or not. And that is the BEST insurance one can get. A person may get any and all tests a Dr. orders without having to GET APPROVAL as with the HMOs. A very ill newborn may run up a bill of 250,000 or even more which is all covered by MediCal. Something like that could break the back of a family without MediCal. The point is: the medical services are utilized to the hilt for any reason, not just serious illnesses.
The Cal school system overall is terrible. Overcrowded, not enough resources of good teaching, books and the like.
Private schools are good but cost a family a fortune and many families do not have the means to secure a good education for their children.
I could go on and on and I’m tired of hearing myself talk. Its obvious that the Millions of illegal aliens are not responsible for all of this but it certainly has a negative influence.
I am therefor I be
Let’s start with this indisputable premise: The birth rates of Latinos (whether inside or outside this country) are greater than for other groups. This, of course, does not imply that all Latinos have large families; only that, as a group, Latinos breed in larger numbers.
Now comes a disputable but not an outrageous premise: These high birth rates are likely higher amongst the lowest classes within the group.
Now I ask myself what is the cause of these higher birth rates and I come up with four possibilities.
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Through higher birth rates, Latinos aim to assume political power after the eventual die-off of the baby-boom generation (I’ve actually heard this one from the anti-Latino crowd);
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Additional farm labor;
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Adherence to Catholic teachings; or
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Collection of larger social benefits such as food stamps, etc.
Number 1 is highly unlikely if we assume that the rates are highest amongst the lowest classes since the lowest classes are the least politically active.
Number 2 may be true to an extent but not overall since the birth rates remain higher even in urban settings.
Number 3 is Skelton’s original postulation and my original post was based on this since no poster has openly challenged this.
Number 4 would clearly back Skelton’s implied call for limiting the amount of social services available to large poverty-stricken Latino families. I believe the vast majority in this country support a social safety net but abhor an enabling system of giveaways and incentives for irresponsibility.
Now let’s move to another undisputable premise put forth by both Bricker and Holly: Poverty is a strong driver of crime. I do not dispute this.
Poverty is defined by the government in terms of two variables - income and family size (geographic location is another variable but I am unsure whether the government uses this). It would then go without saying that the larger the family, the more likely it is to find itself in poverty.
So now let’s go back to the subject of my last post. Latino communities are overwhelmingly Catholic (less so in the US than in Latin America but overwhelming nonetheless). Let’s divide the community into two groups - those that practice birth control and those that don’t (presumably for religious reasons).
The group that does practice birth control will be less affected by poverty because of their smaller family size while the group that does not will face even more financial pressure to support their offspring.
Which group will have more incentive to steal?
In response to the criticism of Bricker that I did not show a direct link between adherence to Catholic teachings on birth control and stealing, this post is as good as it gets. Do you really believe that some type of research could be done by government or academic types that would identify individuals who steal to support a large family created by adherence to Catholic teachings?
Researcher: You have such a large family Mr. Research Subject. How do you support it on such a small income?
Research Subject: I augment my income with petty theft.
I apologize for veering from Skelton’s original topic but the paradox does annoy me.
Undocumented immigrants are eligible for MediCal only for emergency and pregnancy services. It isn’t just “given to” any poor person who asks for it. I don’t doubt that there are some illegals who manage to circumvent this rule but, again, is it too much to ask that if you’re going to claim we’re spending loads of money on illegals’
medical care, that you provide some evidence this is so?
This is not an exhaustive list. I would posit at least one additional group: the small family with one or both parents addicted to drugs. This family, while small, will have expenses orders of magnitude greater thanthe larger, law-abiding family.
Moreover, the ratio of criminal families to law abiding ones must of necessity be small, since the same home cannot be robbed day after day.
So again I would offer the proposition that a family grown large because of adherence to Catholic teachings on birth control is very unlikely to resort to theft.
- Rick
disreputable_1 wrote:
Wrong.
My mother worked as a registered nurse in a health clinic. This clinic served a primarily Hispanic neighborhood in the Los Angeles area. All the nurses in this clinic were under a gag order not to discuss birth control with any of their patients unless the patients brought up the subject first.
Once, when a young woman came in pregnant with her second or third child complaining about all the pregnancies she was getting, my mom decided to discretely violate the gag rule, and told the young woman that there were certain products she could buy at a drug store designed to reduce her chances of getting pregnant from sex. The young woman had never heard of contraceptives. I never asked my mom whether this young woman was Catholic or not.
It may be the case that some Catholic households don’t so much teach their children that contraception is wrong, they don’t teach them about contraception, period. So while you might know the Church rules against stealing and extramarital sex, you might have no clue about the contraceptive issue.
The truth, as always, is more complicated than that.
Woops. disreputable_1 didn’t write that, Bricker did. Mea culpa.
Agree with tracer here. I went to Catholic school. I did know several people (male and female) who had sex as teenagers but didn’t use birth control because they thought it was wrong. They felt guilty about having sex to begin with and thought that using birth control as well would just compound the sin.
Fair enough. I can’t believe it’s particularly common… but it’s certainly possible.
- Rick