I always thought that if they wanted to be that realistic, they should have also given females a dexterity bonus.
As far as Drow females on Gor, there are Strength spells, Girdles of Giant Strength and so on. I have this image of a 5 foot drow woman casually flinging some 6 ft 6 Gorean thug thirty feet.
Actually, there are quite a few books with Drow in them, not to mention video games.
Are they fictional adaptations of the D&D scenarios, or vice-versa?
Standalone - all that R.A. Salvatore stuff about Drizzt Do’Munchkin and the other (Drow Princess?) series.
If we’re taking simple votes here, put me down for the Drow, the level of power there is orders of magnitude over the Gorean. The Drow society equivalent of someone at Tarl Cabot’s level is running around with an arsenal of magic, while still being a very dextrous fighter in their own right, and with built-in abilities to boot. A few extra hit dice (and a funnily-named Giant Eagle that’s stopped by stringing piano wire up!) is going to be no match for someone who can command demons.
Both. I’ve seen a novelization of Queen of the Demonweb Pits, as well as the Drizzt books previously mentioned.
What, because like for like women are habitually quicker moving and better coordinated? :dubious:
Goes some way to explain why women routinely thrash men at all sports that aren’t predicated simply on lifting and hitting power. :dubious: :dubious: :dubious:
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You run the kind of campaign where every Drow and her sister runs around with a Girdle of Giant Strength? ::running out of :dubious: ::
Let me guess, they’d be… ohh… D&D spinoffs, right?
Oy, another DM who routinely passes out magical items to every single one of his or her favourite monsters. I don’t want to play in your campaign either. :rolleyes: 
Given that a spellcaster and a fighter of roughly equal levels are reasonably well-matched in a fight, and given that Gorean and Drow societies have roughly equal distributions of levels (so the same number of level 18s, the same number of level 10s, the same number of level 1s, etc.). Given all that, though, an army of all fighters and/or barbarians and no magic at all will be hopelessly lost vs. an army with a mixture of fighters and various sorts of magic. If a single high-level spellcaster has a chance to pull off a single high-level spell, the battle is over. One Mass Invisibility would give the Drow armies time to prepare, organize, and make a devastating first strike from stealth. A single Storm of Vengeance can wipe out hundreds or thousands of regular soldiers (most of whom I’m presuming would be low-level), and weaken even the high-level officers. Summoned monsters would wreak havok with any non-magical army, especially since many of them have damage reduction (and where are the Goreans going to get magical weapons?). And even the high-level warriors you can’t kill in the first round or two of combat, you can easily stop, with any sort of wall spell (stone, iron, force, etc.), Web, Reverse Gravity, or any targetted spell with a Will save. Remember, even a third-level cleric can cast Hold Person, and there will be a lot more third-level priestesses on the battlefield than 18th-level fighters.
I have not read the Gor books. But based on reading the OP and the other responses, and judging by what I know of drow, I’d have to favor the drow. The Gor may have some initial advantages but the drow never give up.
They have superior fine muscle control, as a rule.
No . . . I’ve never run a campaign with them, in fact, just read about them. However, Drow are smart; if they aren’t strong enough, they’ll either aquire the necessary magical items/spells, or just leave the hand-to-hand fighting to their enslaved orc, trolls, goblins, kobolds, minotaurs, charmed Goreans and so on.
Well, duh. I assume they copyrighted the concept.
As I’ve previously noted, the Drow are so outnumbered to start, and hace a population growth rate so low, that they cannot expect to win any kind of long war. Even if they “win” round one, their position will become increasingly untenable. In short, the Drow are going extinct.
Of course, it looks this way in regular DnD, too.
So that’s why women kick ass at darts, shooting, throwing and so on, and men suck at locksmithing, watchmaking and jewelcraft. Gotcha. 
[aside] Most discussions of the 18/50+ Strength limitation on female humans:
a) overlook the fact that the rules of the time still allowed female human fighters to utterly outclass (hah!) males of any and all demi-human races, simply because they weren’t level-limited; and
b) proposed counterbalancing advantages (out of fairness, y’know) that would have affected all women, like Der Trihs’s dexterity-bonus suggestion.[/aside]
Ah. If you had, you would know that Gorean slaves, at least, would not aspire to hold much of an opinion on matters they knew nothing about. 
/private joke
It’s more the other way around. Magic would offer a lot of punch in initial exchanges, especially as the Goreans wouldn’t know what was hitting them. But they’d have strength in depth and plenty of staying power. They’d learn that these pesky spellcasters run out of steam inside half an hour. There are limits to what charm spells can do - and the line generally falls some way short of battling former brothers-in-arms.
They would laugh at even swarms of goblins and kobolds (and under pretty much any edition of D&D rules they’d be entirely right to) as they are both accomplished fighters and highly disciplined. Think of The 300 Spartans, but in much greater numbers. Minotaurs and similar would be more of a threat, but even these aren’t much more than a match for a mid-level fighter, one on one.
Goreans can be panicked, and they can be worn down by guerilla warfare - there are several examples of this - but they can also bounce back against an overwhelming threat, as they did in Marauders of Gor for instance. Don’t make the common mistake of thinking that because Goreans enjoy the society of female slaves that they have no other interest than bullying weak and feeble women. The whole female-slavery thing is a side issue and a natural consequence of a low-tech, highly martial society where there isn’t a vested interest in protecting women’s rights (for all that, free women on Gor outnumber slave by forty to one).
And under 3rd edition rules, Goreans are entitled to three bonus feats for forfeiting light, medium and heavy armour, by my reckoning. 
The advantages of magic depend on what’s being done. As said, a Storm of Vengeance will simply kill an opposing army. If the drow have the resources to call demons, then this fight will be over before it begins. Trios of vrocks can Dance of Ruin away conventional armies by themselves. Yeth hounds can also panic large numbers of soldiers. A single marilith could probably depopulate Gor by herself. But the drow, being the drow, would probably devote their resources to gating in large numbers of succubi.
Tell me, what’s the estimated population of Gor? Because with just a single high-level drow wizard or priestess in the starting invasion party, I bet I could work out a way to destroy the average city with called demons alone.
Finally, remember the drow are the drow. If the high-level drow need to abandon their lesser fellows, hide out for thirty years, and then attack again, they can very well do so.
None of the war plans matter. The Drow love taking slaves, and love taking slaves from the proud even more. Fortunately, with those hunky Gor hanging around, the Drow will be almost totally half-elven in a few years. And human thereafter.
Gor wins, via being love machines. Hey, there’re worse ways to spend your captivity.
And just a strategic point about slavery: To the slaves of the sadistic, decadent Drow, their bondage is iniquitous and hateful, and they would gladly betray their horrible masters if they ever got the chance. Whereas most Gorean slaves are, oddly, devoted and loyal to their masters (cruelty for cruelty’s sake is pretty much absent from Gorean slavery) and, if it ever comes to it, likely to continue to be loyal to them even at the risk of their own lives. There’s an example of this in Marauders of Gor when the Kurii try to use captured Gorean kajirae as a human shield. So if it ever became a question of using either side’s slaves against them, score one for the Goreans. More in a bit.
But the dark elves have had thousands and thousands of years to create huge repositories of highly deadly magical items. Ioun stones, for example, can store 6 spell levels. That’s six charm person spells right there, per stone! And they’re cheap! That’s six grease spells, two lightning bolts, or two fireballs – and they can be used by non-spellcasters!
I simply doubt the war would last months and months. The drow wouldn’t want an extended war because it puts them at risk for all of the reasons already outlined. If we’re talking a drow seige of a Gorean city, it could be annihilated utterly by dawn. Storm of Vengeance was already noted; clerics have a good number of “wrath of god” type options for bringing down entire cities. Add a whole cadre of unholy priestesses and I doubt the US Army could do a thing about it.
Only takes a charisma check and, if you can say one thing for elves, they’re charismatic. Plus, I think you could surpass the charisma check to just walk off the field of battle, or sit down, or start singing about how you’d like to be a drow love slave.
All the more reason that the drow wouldn’t rely on goblins, kobolds, or even orcs and minotaurs except as a diversion. Gate in a few demons who are invulnerable to conventional weaponry instead. Succubi would be an interesting approach, but to be boring, just a couple of straight balors and mariliths would do. Keep in mind they could be summoned in the middle of the enemy lines, too – and they can fly.
Ever see Fellowship of the Ring? Imagine a balrog - which is essentially what a balor is (after Middle Earth creatures were renamed for legal reasons) - going against swords and steel. It doesn’t matter that they have Aragorn, Boromir, Legolas, and Gimli, all fantastically skilled fighters. T’ain’t gonna happen.
True, but a high level spellcaster will beat one or more high level fighters every time. Goreans are too fighter-heavy and without magical support it simply would be all too easy to destroy them utterly.
Frankly, **Gordon Freeman ** would kill every last muthafuckin’ one of them on both sides.
I’m not well up on all these critters, I have to admit. From what I’ve googled on that spell, it looks devastating – within a smallish radius. I mean, by fantasy battle standards 120 yards may be a lot of area of effect, but the descriptions of big battles in literature make ‘em quite a bit bigger than that. The siege of Ar in Tarnsman of Gor was huge – a mere 120’ diameter circle wouldn’t make that much difference. Also, I don’t understand what the victims are doing sitting on ground zero for ten rounds. By the way, have we now moved the action above ground for this one? Got to factor in the Nasty Yellow Face for a start – and then take into account Gorean heavy cavalry, the high tharlarions.
Didn’t demons take damage from cold iron weapons, once upon a time? Once that dirty little secret’s out, the Caste of Metal Workers are well up to the job.
Probably similar to classical-era Earth: in the hundreds of millions. The political unit of civilised Gor is the city-state, that is, one fortified and well-armed city plus the agricultural, mining and assorted other settlements within a few days’ march. You should note that one popular Gorean “sport” is raiding an enemy city, usually with warriors freighted in by tarns (who are strong enough to carry about ten men apiece. Think of something halfway between a giant eagle and a roc), and so everyone’s kept well-versed in the hows and whys of both conducting and repelling a sudden attack.
Of course. But don’t forget that with their small numbers and slow-growing population, getting badly bled every thirty years or so is going to hurt, and the Goreans that fought them last time are likely to be still around, alive, well, in full possession of their faculties, and probably in positions of authority by then. For those who don’t know, one of the few pieces of technology universally used on Gor is the anti-aging Stabilisation Serums. Goreans who don’t die of violence can live in perfect health for centuries.
Not that I remember; certainly not the more powerful ones.
Actually, I was thinking of the Drizzt book Siege of Darkness, where they were used to wear the humans down. Sword fodder; the point isn’t for them to win ( or survive ), but to exhaust their enemies.
Also, I’d like to point out if the Drow simply wanted control, they could do so without armies. With invisibility and charm, for example, they could sneak into range and take control of important leaders. The Goreans don’t have detection or protection spells, after all. Bribery, blackmail and other forms of manipulation would work as well, especially for people with illusion/scrying magic against opponents who have none. As a bonus, if the Drow did it that way, the vast majority of Goreans would likely not even realize they existed.
OK, even assuming a straight-up fight, and granting that the Goreans gain bonus feats in place of armor proficiency. A high-level Gorean will have an AC of at best 20 or so (+2 large shield, +1 Dodge, +5 Expertise, and perhaps +2 Dex), and perhaps 8.5 HP per level (assuming fighters with 16 con).
A 7th level cleric, meanwhile, has access to Lesser Planar Ally, which is sufficient to summon, say, a vrock. Vrock have damage reduction 20/+2, sufficient to ignore anything the Goreans can do with conventional weapons, and fire resistance 20, enough to at least seriously blunt the effect of any fire-based weapons. It’s not clear from the Lesser Planar Ally spell description whether “kill an army” is an acceptable favor to ask, so I’ll assume that each vrock is killing only one foe. But killing a single foe who can’t so much as hurt the vrock has to be a relatively easy request, so the bargaining and return favor should be relatively easy. Even so, I’ll assume that the Drow don’t want to get too deeply into demonic debt, so only one planar ally per cleric.
Well, in addition to being immune to anything a Gorean can throw at it, a vrock gets two claw attacks, a bite, and two rakes every round, for a total of 2d8 + 1d6 + 2d4 + 14. Those are all at +9 to attack or greater, so we’ll assume that half of those attacks hit, for an average of 16 damage per round. At that rate, it’d only take 11 rounds to kill even a 20th-level fighter. And this is even assuming that the vrock doesn’t use any attacks other than its natural weaponry.
Now remember that the priestess who summoned that vrock (who can easily dispatch even the most potent of its foes) need not be any higher than 7th level. What about the higher-level clerics? Well, at 11th level, they’d be casting Planar Binding instead of the lesser version, which would be enough for a marilith or balor, or for two vrock. And a 15th level cleric will use Greater Planar Binding, for two mariliths or three vrock each. Remember, each of these demons is easily capable of killing at least on Gorean, of any level.
And that’s just from Planar Ally spells. Those same clerics, and the wizards as well, can also use Summon Monster spells to bring in nasties, without need for negotiations or return favors. Starting at 11th level, a spellcaster could bring in large fire elementals, which again have sufficient damage reduction and fire immunity. Although the elementals will have a shorter duration than the planar allies, they’ll also be able to attack any number of foes, while they last, and their numbers will be limited only by the number of spells available. Against the same high-level fighter mentioned before, a large fire elemental can be expected to land about .85 attacks per round, each one doing an average of 17 damage, so in the 11-round duration of an 11th-level caster, each one can kill approximately 18 levels worth of foes. And there’ll be several of these per caster, especially if they’re higher than 11th level.
So what we have here is that each spellcaster of 11th level or higher is able to take out dozens of low to mid-level foes, and in addition, each priestess of 7th or higher can take out one high-level foe. And this is only using a few summoning spells, not any of the many and varied other spells that could be brought to bear. Heck, even the acolytes could do their part, using Bless and Prayer to augment the demons. And divinations and infiltration spells (Invisibility and Change Self, and the like) will mean that the Drow will have better intelligence on the enemy and be better prepared. Really, I just can’t see any way that magic wouldn’t carry the day, here.
Okay, I’ve had to go off and do a spot of fact-finding. One more time then:
Balors. The trouble with the whole “Balors are Balrogs, and Balrogs are unstoppable, because like, in the FotR film Gandalf told all the high-level fighters to leave it to him!!!” argument is that not only was there no fighter in Middle-Earth who could touch one, there was no wizard who could control one either – not even Sauron. “Durin’s Bane” had been lurking around Moria since ancient times, and didn’t say “Sir” to anyone except Morgoth. I agree that a balor is absurdly tough, but it’s no use citing LotR as an authority that fighters shouldn’t be able to even touch one. Different ball game. Gandalf was able to go up against one not because he was a wizard but because he was an incarnated Maia just as it was. Oh, and I’d never dream of citing the film as a source. Dear me.
Vrock, summoning of. Haven’t found this planar ally spell, but a quick look in the PH v3.0 shows a vrock as one of the possible respondents to a summon monster 9 spell – 18th-level wizard territory, so that’s one argument against a mere 7th-level cleric being allowed to run around with them at her beck and call. Another is that a vrock is not only too much for a 7th-level Gorean fighter to handle – it’s too much for any 7th-level character of any class unless they’re loaded down with so many magic items they look like a Christmas tree. IOW, anyone who thinks a 7th-level cleric should be able to summon one of these, possibly several times a day if they have any Wisdom bonus to brag about, needs a visit from the Game-Balance Fairy and possibly a good slapping with a staff of clue delivery.
Vrock, bad-assedness of. While agreeing that they’re much too tough for mediocre spellcasters to be allowed to yank out of their back pocket at the drop of a hat, I rebut the notion that there would be nothing Goreans could do to touch them. I’m necessarily assuming they have not greatly changed since 2nd edition AD&D, as I don’t have a 3rd edition MM to consult, and so I note that they do take full damage from iron weapons and also take full damage from acid. We can do that. Despite its restrictions on weaponry, transport and communications, Gor’s not as low-tech as all that. The Caste of Builders can not only produce industrial-strength acid (considerably more vicious than what cod-mediæval alchemists can in the D&D world) but can probably come up with a sticky corrosive not unlike an acid arrow missile. And needs only a ranged touch attack to deliver successfully. It won’t blow away every vrock that shows its ugly face, but it will mean that one of the critters can’t OMG lay waste to like a whole Gorean city, cuz you need like a magic weapon to hit them and the Goreans haven’t got any!!!111!!one.
So much for the demons. I rather agree with the idea that drow could and would make a very successful living as a rat in the wainscot of Gorean society – hidden away, mostly not even intruding on Gorean living space, and their existence not widely known. That fits in very well with an existing aspect of Gorean culture: “first knowledge” and “second knowledge”. Low-caste Goreans, for instance, do not know that Earth exists and may well believe their own planet to be flat. High-caste Goreans are in the know, and this includes Warriors.
But this is getting rather away from the assertion that drow could pitch up on Gor and kick Gorean butt without fear of retaliation. We tossed out the idea that a fireball would stop a Gorean in his tracks some time ago and have been placing increasing reliance ever since on summoning monsters that were presumably invulnerable. I now have a happy notion of a delightful drow bacchanale being interrupted by the rude arrival of a vrock which has an assortment of iron bolts sticking out of it and large areas of hide burned away by acid, glowering at its summoner and saying “About this routine assignment…”. Guess future summonings would start to cost big-time.
The plain fact is that drow can’t go toe to toe with the hordes of muscle that Goreans can bring to bear. It gets worse when the Priest-Kings start to take exception to having their antennae rubbed in the casual violations of their law. I’ve not laid much emphasis on them up to now. Two arguments that I rapidly tire of in RPGing are “We can kill You whenever we like, but You can’t even touch Us” and “My god can beat up your god”. Still, I’ve heard enough about all the extra-planar assistance the drow are meant to be able to call upon, and it’s time to balance the scales.
We don’t need direct interventions from them, not in the sense of Flame Death for any drow who pokes her head out of the Underdark (btw, let’s note that this is some kind of tech that causes the victim to spontaneously burst into blue-hot flame – not a simple fire attack). To begin with they will obviously issue an edict that, since the aliens are not bound by weapons restrictions, they’re fair game for any weaponry Gorean wit can devise, which is inclined to be plenty. Next, once a drow or two has let its own arrogance lead to its capture, it’ll be paying a visit to the Sardar where it will not only sing like a boid but likely be let go with a Priest-King control web in its brain. That makes the infiltration very much a two-way undertaking and means a check-list of drow vulnerabilities and attack modes that work against demons will be circulating p.d.q. The PKs don’t need to go so far as to provide the Goreans with armoured flying disks, silver tubes and Ur disruptors (see Priest-Kings of Gor). Just advising the Caste of Builders to start mass production of magnesium flares would be a help.
I find amusing the notion that there are going to be loads of spell-storing ioun stones kicking around for low-level drow to use. Granted their higher-level brothers may have the ability, but the inclination…?
And this probably goes some way to explain why the book entries for drow don’t say anything like “All drow habitually tote wheelbarrow loads of magic items”, and they instead tend to have some nifty weapons and armour, and that’s it.
Incidentally, talking of nifty weapons, the terms in which Gorean weaponsmithing is spoken of in the books suggests to me that what D&D considers a “masterwork” item should represent minimum acceptable standard to Goreans, and many experienced Warriors should tote better. After all, that’s much what the drow items were originally presented as – works of craftsmanship that didn’t radiate an aura of magic. (And had the “Useless to PCs” limitation built-in too. Gygax going “Hey, I want to come up with some game-busting monsters that really kick PC ass, but I don’t want the PCs getting rich on the proceeds”. :rolleyes: )
The over-reliance on foci would be a long-term weakness for the drow – not only because the unique drow-made items corrode if they’re not kept at home, and crumble in sunlight, but because any other items they were toting would, gradually, end up in Gorean hands. Another reason not to load down low-level drow with spell-casting devices that can be used by fighters.
Enough for now, except to say that, while I have no animosity towards Evil Captor who was mentioned upthread, I don’t believe I need him to correct my exercises concerning Gor. Mind you, if he too has been contributing two thousand words a month to a website on the subject for the last six years, I’ll reconsider.
Irregardless of the exact stastics of a balor vs. a balrog (balrogs should properly be abominations per the ELH), a balor will simply stop arbitrary amounts of Gorean ass. A balor ignores the first 15 points of weapon damage (unless the Goreans have blessed cold iron weapons laying around) per blow it takes. With absurdly high AC, massive numbers of hit points, and dominate monster at will, even a single balor could go a long way towards a drow racial victory. There’s simply nothing a non-magical non-high-technology culture can to do one. Also, they can teleport at will, so no trying to wear one away bit by bit.
Also, you need to be 11th level to get a vrock with Planar Ally/Binding. There won’t be hordes of them, but there don’t need to be. Now, a succubus, on the other hand…you can get a wand of Lesser Planar Ally, if you so choose. Moreover, since the succubus’s assigned duties are going to be to get captured as a slave girl, eat your master’s soul, and repeat, stopping to sow general chaos and mayhem with your charm abilities, the offered enticements don’t need to be that high. Now, a whole bunch of Goreans have been turned into wights. Five or six Gorean lords with their entire retinue of slaves metamorphosed into shambling undead creatures that can create more of themselves out of their victims is a bad, bad thing.
And that’s cold iron that penetrates demonic DR, not just iron. It is theoretically possible that the Goreans can start a large-scale campaign to identify, locate, mine, and weaponsmith cold iron before dancing vrocks have gutted their cities, but it’s not damn likely.
'Sides, acid caps out at about 3d6 or so. Read d20 Modern for details.
It does come down to that. Unless Lolth herself is personally slapping every cleric upside the head to work to slaughter the Goreans, you’d have the Goreans telling stories of scary dark-skinned women who do not accept their place, and losing the occasional farmstead or small village. Very few species in a D&D world do the genocide thing very well.
Called demons can kill all the Goreans in a city with their at-will spell-like abilities and teleport to the next city all day long. They’re a wonderful time-saver, but not strictly necessary. We’ve established that unless that’s some powerful-ass acid the Gorean alchemists are whipping up on short notice, it’s likely the vrocks won’t even feel it.
Anything a summoned creature can do with regards to flight, damage reduction, or nasty area attacks, a drow spellcaster can do. They can’t do it continuously, but that means that the eradication of the Goreans will take years instead of hours.
Drow can call upon demons and the like as a class feature. Unless there are Goreans who have been known to call down the wrath of the Priest-Kings, you’re comparing apples to oranges. I mean, a horde of slaadi could spontaneously arrive and decide to go bug-squishing on Gor (a possibility that is most certainly in character for slaadi), but it’s not reasonable to count on that level of support.
Another perk of the summoned-creature-army bit: the drow never need directly engage the Goreans. While it is unreasonable to assume that no drow would be captured and interrogated, it’s quite reasonable to assume that if the drow troops are simply a handful of demons which can teleport at will, the Goreans aren’t going to find out squat.
shrugs I’m positing that an elite force of drow spellcasters plot the takeover of Gor, without the use of any low-level flunkies at all. As such, the magic item levels of the drow mooks is not relavent to me.
As said, the demon-summoning plan involves practically no risk of item loss (except what is being paid to the demons).
A concluding note: Drow are well-known for summoning hordes of powerful demons and letting them do their thing. It would be a horrible slaughter to the Goreans, yes, because as presented they simply have no reliable defenses against the level of demonic power even one high priestess of a drow city can put out, but likewise, the drow can’t stand up to a toe-to-toe slugfest without resorting to retreat or summoned creatures that don’t run out of abilities. The problem is that with magic, the drow can pick the time, place, and nature of the conflicts between them and the Goreans.