Spider Bitches of Gor!

I obtain muchly in the modality of shrug, dude. What we’ve now established is that provided Gor really does work by D&D rules, but that although magic works and is highly efficacious and vicious extra-planar creatures can be summoned ad lib none of the natives have ever learned any of this stuff, the creatures drow can call up can kick Gorean butt. (And I see vrock have had to be toned up yet again since 2nd Edition – information for which I’m indebted to you, robertligouri. Doubtless someone somewhere gets off on this.) Somewhat different to the original premise that the drow themselves could hand the Goreans a good slapping. :rolleyes:

The big problem is insisting that the whole thing has to be adjudicated under D&D rules, of course – and that the Gorean Prime Material is one in which all this magic works and the demons will turn up once called. If we must concede the first (and really, D&D is one of the harsher environments for the Goreans, what with the proliferation of critters that ignore non-magical damage; other game systems go in for this somewhat less) then I think a little flexibility on the second isn’t unreasonable. ISTR the dear old Manual of the Planes allowed for the possibility… and once you take out all clerical spells above 2nd level and all extra-planar summoning, the playing field looks a little less slanted.

(Demon-summoning as a class ability? :dubious: My my my, and I thought the Unearthed Arcana drow were absurdly unbalanced. It just goes to show.)

Priest-Kings, fwiw, do their own thing. Tarnsman of Gor showed an instance of the High Initiate thinking he had the power to invoke the Flame Death, and it’s possible that he had done so before with success, but it’s not made clear that any such putative ability was ever more than rumour. Whether or not, it was the Priest-Kings that actually did it. But in terms of enforcing their own weapon and technology restrictions, the Priest-Kings are pretty assiduous – and their automatic surveillance was up to the task of spotting a single Builder stepping out into the daylight to test a “forbidden weapon” (seen in Priest-Kings of Gor). They do have a “doomsday device” at their disposal… they have the power to destroy the planet, something that I don’t believe is claimed even for Lolth (Priest-Kings of Gor, again).

Still, whatever. It’s still “We can kill you any time we like, but you can’t do anything to us!” and it’s many years since I found that a remotely interesting approach to roleplaying. I think you’d find the return match even less appealing: There is a transplanar route to Gor, but it’s about as one-way as a trip to the Demiplane of Dread, magic doesn’t work, drow are puny photophobes with an amazing amount of useless gear… and any matriarch you can think of is learning what “La Kajira” means in double-quick time or making a nasty stain on the landscape, and the Goreans couldn’t care less which choice she makes.

Of course, that’s the problem right there. Mathematically, the Gor will still win sooner or later unless the Drow are hyper-disciplined. Which they are not. And we can count on the drow killing off several of their own number before the end.

It’s true an elite force will have no equal because they can get things like damage reduction, but it still has weaknesses.Grappling will take out most of their advantages, so if the Goreans even manage to ambush the Drow once, it’s all over. It’s not that the Drow don’t have advantages - they do, major ones. It’s that their reach vastly exceeds their grasp. And it takes the Dtrow centuries to replce one high-level character. It takes the Gor several years.

However, if they used charm magic, Charisma-enhancing magic, and so on to work diplomatically, I imagine the Gor would be very interested in what they have to offer. That could get them into a controlling position without fighting. Numbers-wise, it’s the only way they could win.

/aside: “Gor” is the planet, “Goreans” are the human inhabitants.

See, now this starts to sound like a game I’d play, or a book I’d either read or write. :slight_smile:

You should note that the Drow can’t summon very many such creatures. Only a few high-level characters can do so (particularly given the Drow’s level penalty), and most don’t stick around long. Only the Planar Ally series gives them a good long-term demonic servant. Of course, while the demons are present they will kill everything around.

My general assumption here is that game rules trump novels trump conventions trump logic. Which is actually quite funny, as it means (amongst many other things) that the Drow have access to millions of magic items but can’t get them because they count as NPC’s.

I haven’t read the Gor books in 25 years…

But why are we assuming that the Goreans will lose so easily? The Goreans won’t be single-classed fighters, they’ll be multi-classed Fighter/Rogues or Fighter/Barbarian/Rogues or Fighter/Monk/Rogues, and some might even be full-blown Assassins. Evasion counts for a lot. And if the Initiates can call down the equivalent of Flame Strikes, who’s to say they can’t do worse? Like Earthquake, or Storm of Vengeance? Or Mass Flame Strike?

As for the DR of demons, a fighter will have Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation, Power Attack, Greater same, Sneak Attack, etc. So the fighter can damage despite the DR. And the Priest Kings forfend that a high-level ranger have a Favoured Enemy: Demons

I think the Drow would be wise to stay well hidden.

No, if you do that, the playing field looks incredibly slanted. Sure, we could posit that the action is taking place on a plane where most or all of the Drow magic doesn’t work. We could also posit that it’s taking place on a plane where the Priest-Kings’ technology doesn’t work. Neither case is particularly interesting, so we instead posit that both magic and technology work.

And speaking of technology, could we have a run-down on just what the priest-kings’ capabilities are, here? How often and against how many targets can they use this flame-death thingy, anyway? And how is it targetted – Do they need line of sight, or coordinates of their target, or what? What other gadgets do they use (which, please note, is a different question than what they can use)? How many priest-kings are there? Do they ever sleep?

That last question is particularly important, because of yet another spell the Drow would have access to: Nightmare. With it, a Drow wizard safe in his (note: Most Drow wizards are male. It’s the priesthood that’s restricted to females) citadel could attack a priest-king in his citadel, bypassing all of the priest-king’s defenses.

On the intelligence/espionage score, I’m not so confident that the Goreans will be able to effectively interrogate captive Drow, but I will grant that they could probably get the same information via bribery and the like. So once they see any given magical attack being used, they will probably be able to get basic information on what can counter it, how often a spellcaster can be expected to use it, etc. They probably won’t be able to get such information before an attack is used, though, since they’d need to know the right questions to ask. Even if their informant is completely cooperative, “tell me everything you know” isn’t a very useful question to ask. And unless the informant is a high-level spellcaster (who are going to be staying far from the front lines, and who have little incentive to turn traitor), detailed information is probably still going to be hard to come by.

Yeah, more specifics on the priest-kings would be handy.

The Drow can scrying and teleport, which depending on the targeting rules for their Flame Death puts the priest-kings in a tough spot. It’s not all that hard to scry someone you’ve never met, and scrying is enough to give you teleport coordinates.

So, the Drow can spy on their enemies, undetectably and indefinitely, until they’ve figured out a way to kill priest kings. Teleport in under improved invisibility and fly, spam summon monster or fireball or whatever’s most effective, and teleport out again, not even breathing hard. Sure, there aren’t all that many Drow high enough level to manage it, but it only takes one, and she can do it once a day. One priest-king per day is probably above the rate of replacement, so the Goreans end up without their one advantage. Note that none of these are Cleric spells, so our hypothetical Drow wizardess isn’t relying on divine intervention to get things done.

Unfair? Absolutely. D&D magic isn’t balanced relative to D&D muscle. It’s one of my major frustrations with the system, even if it is realistic.

The thing is, the Drow don’t generally seem to care what goes on on the surface. They make raids, sure, but they never seriously try to take over up above, and I can’t imagine what the Goreans could have that would interest them enough to make the attempt. If the Drow gods got together and decided that Gorean culture needs eliminating, things would be different, but while Llolth would be up for that I doubt the others could muster the necessary concern. In short, like others here I doubt that an Ultimate Showdown between the Goreans and the Drow would ever materialize

If the Priest Kings are involved, why not Lolth ? With no other Gods to interfere, why can’t she just open a gate and send an army of a few hundred or thousand demons ( she did in Siege of Darkness; yes, it’s a book, but so are the Gor novels ) ? The superpowers should be ruled in or out of this confrontation, unless we want it to be mostly about Lolth vrs the PK, with the mortals as bystanders.

Didn’t phrase that right. It should be "The superpowers should be ruled out of this confrontation, unless we want it to be mostly about Lolth vrs the PK, with the humans and Drow as bystanders

The whole problem is two very different worlds. AFAIK, there is no real magic in the Gor novels, and likewise AD&D apparently doesn’t recognize or have any provision for Clarke-level technology. If Goreans and Drow could exist in the same plane, I think both Lolth and the Priest Kings would have to do some major reassessment of their plans to account for these totally unexpected factors.

I doubt either would think an all-out war of extermination or conquest would be feasible or desirable, at least until they’d had a chance to get each other’s measure. Lolth needs and wants worshipers, which she won’t have if the Drow get wiped out. And the Priest-Kings don’t want to see their breeding experiment wiped out either. The Priest-Kings don’t want conquest for it’s own sake; if they did they would simply hand the Goreans high-tech weapons. They want the Goreans to be innately superior warriors. So I think it would become a tense standoff. If any female Drow were weak enough that a Gorean male could break her, I presume Lolth would abandon her. And certainly any Gorean male so strong, fast, tough, intelligent, adaptable and forceful enough to fight a Drow and win in spite of Drow magic would be highly regarded by the Priest-Kings. I think we’d see at least a couple of centuries of skirmishes, mutal raiding and captive taking, with the two sides circling like two snarling dogs sizing each other up. It would be highly entertaining to watch.

Just to inject a few facts about Gor arising out of the last few posts since my last:

Most Goreans would be considered fighters in the D&D system. Torvaldslanders (Gor’s Vikings) are closer to barbarians, and go berserk pretty much in the classical fashion. The Wagon Peoples of the southern plains are similar to the Golden Horde (with the emphasis on the horde!) - nomadic mounted archers and lancers. They ride the kaiila, which is mostly cat with a dash of camel thrown in; horses are unknown on Gor. Similarly, the desert tribesmen are kaiila cavalry, almost exclusively using the scimitar. The eastern Barrens are home to the “Red Savages” (Gor is not long on political correctness) who are very similar to horse Indians, with the exception of the Winyanpi tribe who have successfully trained the tarn.

Civilized Goreans most closely resemble Classic-age Earth and have the most access to what passes for technology on Gor. This is non-trivial; transport on Gor is restricted to wind and animal power, and weaponry to the primitive level noted above, but otherwise they are up to Industrial Revolution standard in some areas, and in a few very advanced. Tarl Cabot, in book 1, was introduced to a language-translator about the size of a portable typewriter - enough to help him learn Gorean. The Priest-Kings, of course, can do better.

The Caste of Assassins would be the most rogue-like of any Goreans, though it should be noted that they are still a good match for Warriors in single combat (but less drilled in battlefield tactics). There is no magic of any kind on Gor; although book 25 is called “Magicians of Gor”, there is nothing but stage magic going on in that book. Initiates may believe that they can call on the Priest-Kings for miraculous intervention, but any actual intervention is entirely discretionary. There are no recorded warrior-monk cultures on Gor; the Assassins are more monastic than most, but not to the extent of practicing bare-hand fighting as anything other than an emergency measure (and Assassins usually intend to be the emergency :slight_smile: ).

Sleen are widely used in all Gorean cultures as guard animals and trackers, at both of which they are superb. They are similar in size and disposition to a sabretoothed tiger, except that they have six legs, and their scent-tracking capabilities start where a bloodhound’s leave off. A well-trained specimen can follow a trail that has been cold for months.

The existence of the Priest-Kings is generally acknowledged by most Goreans, including the Red Hunters (Gor’s Inuit) though I can’t swear for the Red Savages; the Torvaldslanders worship Odin and Thor but don’t deny that the Priest-Kings exist. Their true nature is known only to a handful of men. They are intelligent giant insects who have been technologically advanced for thousands of millennia and brought Gor into Sol system at some time in the past from its original location in another galaxy, so it would be unwise to underestimate their capabilities. They are known to use surveillance technology that can at least cover the surface of the planet. It was probably damaged in the “Nest War”, an internal struggle that occurred in Priest-Kings of Gor, but there is conclusive evidence that a new generation of Priest-Kings was in existence by the time of Beasts of Gor and it is probably back in working order.

It’s unclear whether Priest-Kings ever sleep. It is certain that their brain structure is utterly unlike a human’s and it would be unwise to count on any mind-affecting spells being efficacious against them. Although they are sighted creatures, they rely more on scent, and communicate by means of scent signals. Again to stress, practically nobody on Gor knows this. It therefore follows that even if they can be scried, it’s impossible to know what they are saying to each other. It also means that invisibility is largely useless against them, especially in the familiar surroundings of the Nest.

They are known (that is, the books credit them with this) to use “silver tube” ray-guns, the “Flame Death” as a means of remote execution, interplanetary spaceships which are also capable of flight over the planet’s surface, and an “Ur disruptor” which is described as a “gravitational disruptor” but disintegrates matter in a manner that can’t be attributed to gravitational interference. (Since its function was explained to Tarl Cabot by a Priest-King using a translator, there may not have been words in Gorean for what it actually did. Think of it more like an “intrinsic field subtractor”, which is generally bad news unless your name is Osterman.) Its effect can be summed up as “You point it at something, and the something becomes monatomic dust” and if I were a drow I wouldn’t want to risk it. I’m not dead sure that even Lolth is immune.

They certainly have the capability to put missiles into orbit and plaster anywhere they like with ordnance. They destroyed Tarl Cabot’s adopted home, the city of Ko-ro-ba, between the events of the first two books, and could doubtless do likewise to any area of Gor they chose, which would probably spell bad news for any monstrous horde roaming the surface of the planet. There is some kind of scrambler field surrounding their mountain home, the Sardar, which repels animals. They can implant a mind-control web into the brain of a human and subsequently see and hear through his eyes and ears. (They can also burn his brain out if he somehow throws off the mind control itself.)

However, they have no particular objection to Gor being shared by non-humans, as long as these uphold their laws concerning weapons and technology - which was why my first mention of them in the “Crossover” thread had them Flame Death-ing a drow for tossing fireballs around. As I’ve said, they would not necessarily take direct action against the intruders, and might respond merely by relaxing some restrictions for the duration of the emergency. But unkillable monsters roaming Gor probably would draw some direct action. Consider them Gor’s “Gods of Game Balance”.

It struck me yesterday that there is an answer to most creatures that are immune to normal weapons (not demons, unfortunately. We’re going to need to work on that). The slave-goad featured in Assassin of Gor, though primarily intended as a disciplinary device, can be set to deliver a killing shock; and it would not be too hard for the Caste of Builders to adapt this to a monster-killing weapon. That balances things up against anything that takes damage from electricity, at least.

Of course, the trouble with demons is that wherever they go, ghouls are never very far away [spoiler]because demons are a ghoul’s best friend*.

Aside from my screwed-up tag, which is not terribly important: for “Winyanpi” read “Kinyanpi” in the previous post. I know it doesn’t matter, but a Scribe has his Caste Codes to consider. :slight_smile:

Aha. I hadn’t realized how good the priest-kings’ technology is. Or that they aren’t just humans with delusions of grandeur, for that matter. With all that power, how come the rest of the civilization is so low tech? I mean, yes, because they’re keeping it that way, but why?

The missiles aren’t a big deal, since the Drow homeland is so deep underground. The spaceships are, since they give the priest kings the ability to back off and become invulnerable, much as the Drow can by collapsing the entrances to their tunnels. Much depends on how the priest-kings’ surveillance works; if it’s satellite-based then the Drow can act freely, if it’s not then then the priest-kings might at least achieve informational parity. They still can’t teleport, though. The Drow can’t field any sort of surface army as long as the priest-kings are active, so they’re the key to everything and Gor’s one hope of annihilating the Drow.

By your description, charm person and dominate almost certainly wouldn’t work on them. The ** monster* series of spells would, though. By the book they work on anything. It seems reasonable to give the priest kings a good Will save and high wisdom, so it’s hardly a one-spell kill.

No question that they can be scried, I’m afraid; by the book you can scry pretty much anything, requiring only an apallingly vague description. But then what? energy immunity will handle the Flame Death, but it’s no good against the portable disintegrator, and I don’t think there’s a null-scent spell in the core books (there almost certainly is one in the splats, but there’s all kinds of broken stuff in there so introducing them ends our fun rapidly). Something like “greater teleport in, contingency goes off, quickened teleport out” would work (the pks would never have time to aim), but contingency can’t hold anything nasty enough to make it worthwhile (now that fireballs don’t force objects to save or die anymore). I guess the high-level Drow wizards could make a practice of teleporting into an unoccupied area of the Nest (ensured via scry), disintegrate’ing a few important-looking objects, and teleporting out again. That would take forever, though; normally such a long-lived race wouldn’t care, but it gives the PKs time to figure out a counter.

Maybe the correct solution is actually a Drow monk. Crazy-high touch AC to avoid getting blasted to bits and able to deal good damage. Even then, though, the best possible outcome is “the priest-kings get in their ships and back off until they figure out how to survive and kill the invaders”.

If the priest-kings consider magic a technology violation (which is reasonable, if they don’t understand it), then the two groups do have a conflict after all, because there’s no chance whatsoever that the Drow would peacefully agree to not do, well, anything a surfacer told them they shouldn’t do. Most of them can’t do anything about it, once the PKs are taking a direct interest.

Largely because they don’t think humans are wise enough to handle advanced technology, and also because they don’t want humans trotting around with weaponry dangerous enough to threaten Priest-Kings. They do, however, seem to like humans enough to want to keep the species alive, which is why there are humans on Gor. The transplanted humans are doing very well as a species. Their lives might seem brutal by Earth standards, but the planet is almost free of disease and the Caste of Physicians has pretty much cracked ageing, and as a rule no-one has to starve or live in unbearable squalor. To the PKs’ view, Earth is going to hell in a handbasket. If we don’t nuke ourselves to death, we’ll pollute the planet into unsurvivability. They don’t intend to let that mistake be repeated on Gor.

Priest-Kings are involved in a long-term cold war with another alien species, the Kurii. These are bipedal, a little like an ape, a little like a bear, and a lot like neither. They are fugitives from their own war-ravaged world and have been living in orbiting multi-generation spaceships outside Jupiter’s orbit for a mighty long time. The PKs’ technology has historically been enough to keep them at a safe distance and they are uninterested in exterminating the Kurii. Some of the latter formed a colony on Gor and at one point, at the instigation of the “ship” Kurii, they set off on a mass invasion of civilised Gor. They were, however, stopped in Torvaldsland (in Marauders of Gor). The point was that as long as they too restricted themselves to primitive weapons, the Kurii were tolerated. Tarl Cabot hypothesised that they might even have been allowed to conquer the humans, as long as they fought by the Priest-Kings’ rules. But for the Torvaldslanders, they would have been hard to handle, what with being two or three times the size of humans, proportionately strong, and able to wield some seriously big hand-weapons.

Largely true. The PKs could doubtless use Implanted drow as suicide bombers if they really wanted to, and they could certainly use them as spies. If no drow were available (and I do rather think someone would get over-confident at some point) then there are alternatives; a human who is captured and becomes a drow slave; even a harmless subterranean animal such as an urt (Gor’s rat equivalent) unless the drow really do sanitise everything, everywhere. And if they really, really wanted to, they could disintegrate their way down from the surface. But the PKs don’t necessarily object to the Drow fielding a surface army. As stated, they’ve tolerated a Kur army before now.

Yes, it’s fair to say that PKs have awesome mental powers. I wouldn’t count on it working often enough to be very cheering. :slight_smile:

And of course, not only do the drow not have a hope of understanding what the PKs are saying to each other, but most of the objects in the Nest will be utterly incomprensible to them.

Agreed.

And yet the Priest-Kings might put up with magic, at that. The chances of their understanding anything they’ve seen a few times are high, and their intellectual curiosity would probably be drawn by it. It wouldn’t be at all out of character for them to allow the drow enough equalisers to give the Goreans a seriously tough fight, while drawing the line at anything unbeatable and making it clear that the Nest itself is non-negotiably hands-off. Again, it’s what they did with the Kurii. Whereupon we get to take out all the campaign-killing monsters, leave in the stuff that Goreans can at least touch, and get to have some serious fun for both sides. :smiley:

Whereupon we essentially throw ourselves at the whim of the DM (or the Author, or whomever). If we give the Drow just enough magic that the fight is balanced, well, then, by definition the fight is balanced, and we can’t say who would gain the upper hand. But then, of course, you have to decide exactly what magic is balanced and what isn’t, which is a decidedly nontrivial task. There are a lot of spells which could subtly affect the outcome of a battle (even low-level ones: Bless on a hundred soldiers is going to be very nice, and a Silent Image could hide a pitfall long enough for the front line or two to fall in), and there’s a lot of flashy, high-level spells which aren’t actually all that useful in battle (oh, sure, what are they going to do with a Mordenkainen’s Disjunction?)

I still wonder, though, just how many succubi (which probably would be the Drow’s demon of choice, given their characters) the Drow could loose on the Goreans, and how many negative levels could be inflicted, before the Priest-Kings would notice. From what I understand of human Gorean society, they’d be especially vulnerable to such a tactic. Even once a few of them realize that interactions with a few of their slavegirls are a bit more tiring than usual, I doubt that it’s going to be enough to stop them from taking more strange slaves. I mean, what are they going to do, give every slavegirl a shower with holy water that they don’t have before bedding her?

To sum up:
Drow vs Gorens, no direct divine intervention on either side, Drow win.
Full on divine intervention on one side but not the other, the side with divine intervention wins.
Full on divine intervention on both sides, unknown, since it’s very difficult to compare the full capabilities of things so far beyond our power.
Negotiated compromise between the Powers, establishing just what capabilities each side is allowed, it depends on what those negotiated capabilities are. But yeah, it might be fun to watch.

I wonder how many succubi could stomach having to feign the sheer submissiveness of the Gorean slavegirl, or pull it off convincingly? :smiley:

Another thought: The PKs may well be scryable, but preliminary enquiries as to the nature of the place are going to hit a few stumbling blocks. First off, managing to pass in Gorean society for long enough to ask a few questions. (“Who runs this city?” would be an amazingly dangerous question to ask… because anyone who didn’t know who the Administrator or Ubar was would be a foreigner and almost certainly present without permission.) Secondly, any line of questioning as to the nature of the PKs is going to yield an answer that translates, more or less, as “They’re gods”. Hardly anyone knows differently, and hardly anyone even knows that anyone knows differently. This may cause the drow to believe that they have stumbled onto this plane’s equivalent of Mount Olympus, which would possibly cause even them to (a) back off a mite and (b) be prepared to take more seriously the common knowledge concerning weapon restrictions.

In that case it’s debatable whether or not the drow would even try scrying the Sardar - IIRC the trouble with scrying gods is they’re likely to be scrying you right back, and having something to say :dubious: about your cheek into the bargain. It’s even more amusing to picture them cautiously giving it a go and saying “#*&^! Whatever kind of divination blockers have these bastards got? I keep trying to find the Priest-Kings, and all I get are these pictures of some giant ants!”

I like the negotiated compromise picture a lot - bearing in mind that Lolth herself, though a god, is by no means omniscient. (Most fantasy gods aren’t. Even Odin was capable of not knowing everything, I mean, he had to get himself crucified just to learn the secret of writing.) And she’s more than capable of wanting to put her drow up against a tough challenge - it’s for their own good, after all.