Spinoff thread: Mystery Method (Pick-Up Artists): Manipulation or No?

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
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Okay, now for the passage from The Mystery Method that takes the creepiness prize from the passage about using a gun that I quoted before. I read this late last night and, although this may sound silly to some of you, it almost made me cry.

Late in the book Mystery discusses the “End Game”, and has a section on “Overcoming Last Minute Resistance”. (I have no doubt that Mystery encounters a lot of last minute resistance, as the woman thinks “Wait a minute, do I really want to have sex with this guy I just met and who’s really kind of a creep?”) These are his instructions for a man who is about to have sex with a woman, but then the woman says “We should stop”. On p. 202 he says that the man shouldn’t disagree with the woman, he should “just agree with her…and then keep going.” The ellipses is from the original text, I’m not omitting anything there.

When a woman says “stop”, Mystery says the man should keep going.

I take back everything I said about how Mystery is not actually a rapist and how a man following his advice probably wouldn’t do anything illegal. I haven’t read his whole book cover to cover and I hadn’t seen this part when I posted before. But that is it for me as far as giving Mystery any benefit of the doubt at all is concerned.

To be scrupulously fair here, there are some women who in some situations might say “We should stop” and mean it like “We should clean the basement” – she feels it’s a good idea, but doesn’t actually want to do it. But “We should stop” could also mean “No, I don’t want to have sex with you” but the woman wants to be nice about it either because she doesn’t want to hurt the guy’s feelings or because she’s afraid of making him angry. And remember, the Mystery Method instructs men to punish defiance, so she has good reason to worry about his reaction.

Mystery does not address the possibility that the woman might say “No, really, get off me” or “Stop, I don’t want to do this”, or that she might start crying or try to fight him off. He just says that the man should keep going.

He does say two sections later (bottom of p. 202-203) that if a woman’s resistance “seems insurmountable” then the man should pretend like he’s lost interest and go check his e-mail or something. Two problems here. First, “seems insurmountable” is pretty vague. If the woman is too frightened to fight then her resistance can be surmounted fairly easily by a grown man. I have not read this entire book and believe me I have lost whatever inclination I ever had to do so, but nothing I have read indicates that Mystery is opposed to the use of physical force. He says a pick-up artist won’t use a gun, but I haven’t seen anything about not holding the woman down to make her submit.

Oh yeah, the woman’s chances of escape if the man keeps trying to overcome her “resistance” and get her to “comply” are reduced by the fact that this scene most likely will be taking place at the man’s home rather than the woman’s. Mystery has told men to use their own bedrooms because “The best seduction location is one that allows you complete control, such as the bedroom of your own apartment or house” (p. 199).

Second, this feigned lack of interest is intended to make the woman more compliant and have sex with the guy after all. Mystery doesn’t seem to recognize the possibility that the woman might really, really, sincerely not want to have sex with the guy or that there is any point where he should just let her go. And remember, she’s in his house where he has “complete control”. One might say she shouldn’t have gone home with him in the first place, but the scenario that Mystery is presenting is one where the woman enters the home wanting to have sex but then her “last line of defense before the point of no return” kicks in (p. 200).

But as far as Mystery is concerned she’s already crossed the point of no return. She probably crossed it the second he laid eyes on her. This is the end of the book, and there is no End Game that does not result in the man getting exactly what he wanted from the woman…no matter what she says or does.

I felt a lot better when all I knew about the Mystery Method was the OP to this thread. I guess that for my own safety I’m better off knowing what he’s telling men to do, but I feel sick now. I hope no one else wants to try to defend this guy to me.

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Good, it’s always good to read about what you’re discussing.

Ok, I can see that it looks contradictory. Neither one has to be polite, but being stalkerish is definitely bad. Better?

Fair enough.

'K.

FWIW, I’m not offended by your posts here - just baffled. :slight_smile:

183

If you’re assuming he made poor word choices which have led us to misunderstand him, the guy should have hired a better editor. People have a tendency to “interpret” words with their standard and common meanings. If that’s not what he actually meant, he needed to use different words.

We can only take his words at face value. We’re not in his head.

On preview, reading Lamia’s post on how he is advocating date rape, I have to agree with her that it’s not at all ambiguous what he meant.

I guess you missed the part where she said “treat each other with respect”?

Not everyone wears their insecurities on their sleeves. In fact most people go to great lengths to hide them from the world.

Well, duh. No one wants to be misled or mistreated. I don’t particularly like being insulted by strangers or anyone else. If you are a stranger to me I can only take your word for it that you’re being honest with me. If you’re not, it’s going to take me a while to figure that out, no matter how perceptive I am. So the damage, however minimal, is already done.

It’s a shitty thing to go through. Yes, it happens, no, it’s usually not the end of the world (assuming I caught on early enough), but hey, I kind of like it better when it doesn’t happen. I kind of prefer it when people are honest with me from the get-go.

Or I can go around assuming that every guy who talks to me is full of shit. Which of course leads to guys whinging about how girls never give them a chance. Which leads to some guys resorting to dishonesty and manipulation to get their chance. Which leads to… I think you get the idea.

And yes, there are men who will literally follow you around the bar/club/whatever even if you walk away. I’ve experienced that. He held out his hand (asking me to dance), and I shook my head no. I turned and walked away. He followed me onto the dance floor, so I kept my back to him and kept moving to the other side of the dance floor, but he kept following. I left the dance floor and sat down. He followed and held out his hand. I shook my head and mouthed the word “no.” He grabbed my wrist and tried to drag me bodily with him. He was dragging me as dead weight, I wasn’t attempting to stand or help him out and all, and I was literally winding up with my other hand when he let me go.

In retrospect I wish I’d had him bounced (the bouncers knew me by name). At the time I was too angry to think straight. I have no idea how I could possibly have been more clear that I wanted him to leave me the feck alone.

184

Just reporting back that this thread helped me get a girlfriend. Thanks. :smiley:

Last night she said again “I was instantly attracted to you. It began with the handshakes.”

Of course the devastating wit, suave savoir-faire, and jaw-dropping good looks helped a bit too. :wink:

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I only know what I’ve seen in the TV show, so won’t pretend to be Mystery’s spokesperson. But the way I read this is that if the woman is saying “we should stop” (not “stop”) but she is still getting hot and heavy with the dude, he should continue on. That, by the way, isn’t rape. If she is really like “no, I’m not doing this with you”, then he should break off and suddenly act like he has to check his email or something.

I will concede though that he is walking a very fine line and I could totally someone like one of the socially clueless tools from his show crossing it in a fit of sexually frustrated rage.

Basically, Mystery’s whole theory is designed around a believe that pretty girls realize how desirable they are while at the same time are extremely self conscious that no man would ever value anything other than their beauty. While other men constantly flatter them, his techniques consist of probing for weaknesses to exploit and then to provide validation.

**Lamia **and Kaio, you do seem to have some issues though. Not ever guy trying to get laid is a date rapist.

186

No. Why would it?

Snake oil salesmen have made hefty profits for a long time. Hair restoral products, lose-weight-easily products, ear candling, homeopathy, psychic readings - all those things have sold well despite being utter nonsense. If you sell the attraction of getting something wonderful without effort, and wrap it in the veneer of science or expertise, there will always be a neverending line of suckers waiting to buy it.

The “Mystery Method” is just more of the same.

187

You know, I have heard lots of men talk about how afraid they are that they will be accused of date rape and I’ve gotta tell you that this kind of situation might be the kind of thing that would lead a woman to make a call to the police with questions about whether or not this would be considered date rape. If a woman says “we should stop” and she really doesn’t mean it when you stop she will think about it for a second and then jump your bones. If a woman says “we should stop” and you keep going you might make her feel afraid that you are going to hurt her and be left with that horrible feeling of regret the next day. Do you really want to chance the court case and smear on your reputation and possible jail time that could go along with this? If you think you will have to use the phrase, “Well technically I didn’t rape her because…” that should be a clear sign to stop and let her take it from there.

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No, and that’s because not every guy who wants to get laid refuses to take no for an answer and believes that women who don’t want to sleep with him are “defiant” and need to be “punished” until they “comply” with his sexual demands. In other words, not every guy who’s trying to get laid is a firm adherent of the Mystery Method. Thank goodness for that.

Women have the right to refuse men they don’t want to have sex with. I don’t think that’s a crazy idea, but I’m not willing to put any more of my energy into defending it here. I’m sorry this very disturbing thread was bumped rather than being allowed to continue sinking into the depths, but either way I’ve had enough of it.

And on preview, what pbbth said.

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Sorry if I’m a latecomer to the party and this is played out by now, but I just caught the actual VH1 show and wanted to offer my 2 cents…

My first thought, after watching the show, and reading through the thread to this point, is that I can see the value in this stuff for certain people. I think largely that the people who think learning this stuff is unnecessary and creepy are lucky in that they were brought up with a stronger set of interpersonal skills and this is simply not meant to be directed at them. I come from a rural family consisting of only brothers, and had no significant interactions with girls except in school. I struggled to figure out how to deal with them once romantic inclinations started emerging. It was apparent to me that my friends who were raised with sisters or mixed sex neighbors had a definite leg up (probably in just being used to dealing with girls as people, rather than strange alien creatures with boobs :slight_smile: ). I overcame eventually, with many fits and starts along the way, and am (relatively) normal and outgoing today.
I can totally see where the “mystery method” if applied by a person with a genuine desire to self-improve could be golden. After doing some reading about him, it seems Mystery started as the nerdy, dungeons and dragons playing geek before becoming the “master pickup artist” and seems to have had a couple of suicide attempts and major depression along the way. What Mystery seems to have done is take normal interactions and dating skills and has successfully packaged it it terms that totally appeal to the same kinds of D&D, socially awkward but generally book-smart kids that he was. And consequently made a crapload of money doing it.
From what I’ve seen on the show, it SEEMS that he genuinely cares about helping these kids out, and I don’t see any advocating of stalking, etc. He literally screams at some of the kids while watching them in action to break away when disinterest is apparent (to him, with his understanding of body language and social interaction). I think he is fostering a playful and confident vibe through the use of the canned routines at first. Even the negs (as presented in the show…I get the feeling that there may be more and possibly more sinsiter if you really dig deeper) are less the viscious cutdowns (the impression I got from reading the thread in some places) and more “playful banter and light jabs”…I can see where describing how to engage in “playful banter and light jabs” in step by step terms can seem more negative than it looks when I see them do it on the show. How would you break it down into sellable, step-by-step instructions without it seeming at least a little creepy?
It also seems like these techniques, as applied to the club setting, are playing right into the atmosphere of the environment. For every person who wants a decent relationship with a decent person, there are men and women who thrive on the competition, flirting and games of that envornment. I know more tha a few of my female friends in college who would go out simply to see how many drinks they could get from guys without paying for them, dish out fake numbers, etc, and laugh about the “suckers and losers” the next day. I think some of this is a reaction/flipside (not to imply that it is just men reacting to those ladies, just the naure of the environment) to that and needs to be viewed in that context to really make sense.
I can easily see how this stuff can be taken way too far and become the “date ape tool” that some women fear. As I said, I also get the feeling that there may be more to the “mystery method” and others like it if you dig deeper than what is presented on the show. I’m certainly not trying to defend Mystery (I’ve read this thread, listened to the audiobook of “the Game (talk about creepy…the narrator may have one of the creepier voices I’ve ever heard)” and watched the VH1 show as my total exposure to him). As presented on the show, I do see value in the lessons for those that didn’t have the benefit of being raised in that environment.
Also added as an aside: I listened to the “Pickup Podcast” on itunes to see if I could find the creepy in more apparnet detail, and it was there: from a woman, “Stacy” who was interviewed about how she uses these techniques to steal guys’ girlfriends, etc…an entertaining, and definitely disturbing listen (it was the 11/25/08 episode for the curious)…

190

Good thing neither of us said that then.

I think Lamia summed it up nicely. There’s nothing further for me to add, so I’m done here as well.