Spinoff thread: Mystery Method (Pick-Up Artists): Manipulation or No?

[Lamia]

@Autolycus

To play the devil’s advocate, so what if the test is intended to test if the woman will comply or not?

It isn’t being the Devil’s Advocate if that’s what you actually believe. You indicate in your later post (quoted below) that this is the case.

*There’s a big difference in seeing if a woman will comply with a simple little hand game, to being jerked around, dominated, and controlled. Maybe the point with the compliance test is to see if the girl is comfortable with letting the man take the lead and play into the whole alpha male role. I still don’t really think it’s about compliance in the way you are using it, but even if it is… so what?

*It’s freaking creepy, that’s so what. That’s what I said in my very first post. “The understanding is clear on his face that she is supposed to comply”. :rolleyes: She’s just met the guy and she’s “supposed to comply” with his little whims? He’s not even hoping that she’ll comply, he’s expecting it because it’s something she’s somehow obligated (“supposed”) to do.

Sure it’s just a “hand game” at first, but this is presented as a first step that will lead to more. No one would be interested if getting the woman to submit to having her hands pushed and pulled was the ultimate goal here. This guy is a Pick-Up Artist, not a Stupid Bar Game Artist. There’s nothing illegal about designing little tests to identify compliant/submissive women who will be easy to manipulate into bed, but contrary to what you suggested back in post #7 it isn’t totally innocent either.

@Autolycus

Well, yes honestly. See, I guess I just fundamentally disagree. I think that testing people out in subtle ways like that, while perhaps being crafty and even ‘manipulative,’ is not creepy and is definitely not sexist.

If a man thinks every woman he meets is “supposed to comply” with his desires then that’s incredibly creepy and sexist. There’s nothing necessarily creepy about something like “If I squeeze her hand and she squeezes back then that’s a sign that she’s interested”, but that isn’t the way the “test” in the OP was described. A very similar sequence of events could be described in a way that wasn’t creepy, and several people in this thread have attempted to do so. If the quoted material had said something like “this is a test of her interest” and “the interest is clear on his face, and if she is interested too then she will put her hand into his” then that would be a totally different story. But as it was actually written, it’s as creepy as all get out.

*I guess the reason many girls are upset at such tactics is they see them being used by douchebag guys whose only intent is to get laid.

*I’m not seeing a distinction between “Pick-Up Artist” and “douchebag guy whose only interest is to get laid”, other than that the Pick-Up Artist is presumably more successful than average.

*OK, on another note, what if instead of a kino test, a guy talks for a girl for a few minutes and then asks her to get his coat from the coat check. Would this be equally awful to you? I’m honestly asking, because while I can see where you’re coming from, I just plain don’t agree with you.

*I think it would be pretty obnoxious for a guy to start ordering a woman he’s just met to perform errands for him. I can imagine scenarios where this wouldn’t be creepy, like if the woman was about to go get her own coat anyway, but if they’re just talking about some unrelated topic and he suddenly says “Hey, go get my coat for me” then he’s a jerk. (I’d think the same about a woman who did the same thing.) And if he later explicitly stated that this was a “compliance test” and that she was “supposed to comply” with his demands then it would definitely be very creepy.

[Autolycus]

@WhyNot

Asking me to go to coat check with him because he can’t bear to end the evening yet and wants my company? Swoony. Asking me to go to coat check with him as a test of anything at all - compliance, willingness to sleep with him, interest in him as a person - anything but going to the coat check? Icky.

What if it was both?

If you want to know if I’m into you - ASK! Or just be patient and wait for me to tell you. Or tell me that you’re into me. Communicate, for the love of Og. Don’t test me and assume you can interpret the results - just ask!

Perhaps it’s another consequence of me being so naive and inexperienced with dating, but I have a nagging suspicion that not all women are as refreshingly direct and kind as you are. Of course, when you say ‘ASK!’, you probably don’t mean doing it in a super-direct and blunt way. Asking about or conveying interest in simple English can also be done with style and nuance I suppose. Still…if it was as simple as that, how come it seems to be such a rare style of flirting, dating, and even relationships?

So there’s the other 10% of my objection: objectification. Removing my personality, my vibe, my choice and even my name from the situation. I’m no longer myself, I’m the object of his projection; the conquest of his hunt.

Point taken. When you put it that way, I’d feel oogy being treated that way as well. I’m still not convinced it’s unethical to use such tricks as we have been discussing, but it does give off that creepy/oogy vibe for sure.

[EpicNonsense]

@Lamia

…

Where did this whole “supposed to comply” thing come into play? I was under the impression it was to get a feeling of how comfortable the girl was with you by making light contact with you?..

[Autolycus]

@Tracy_Lord

Er, I call bullshit on that. Has any of this actually happened to you when you expressed sexual interest in a woman you thought might have been sexually interested in you?

No, but I think my position is much more believable. Maybe women can go up to random guys and say “hey, wanna fuck?,” but I doubt such a tactic would go over as well with the genders reversed, mutual interest or not.

And let me just say I’m sorry for any animosity I’ve expressed towards you. I feel like I’m being piled upon for practices I don’t even do, and beliefs I barely espouse.

[Tracy_Lord]

@EpicNonsense

Where did this whole “supposed to comply” thing come into play?

It’s a direct quote from the test. Check the first post in the thread.

@Autolycus

Asking about or conveying interest in simple English can also be done with style and nuance I suppose. Still…if it was as simple as that, how come it seems to be such a rare style of flirting, dating, and even relationships?

In my opinion, because a lot of people lack self-confidence, and it’s easier to rely on learned tactics than to put yourself out there. It hurts more if it’s you being rejected, rather than your tactic failing.

FWIW, “Hey, I’m interested in sleeping with you, would you like to come upstairs?” has worked on me within the first three dates, when I was attracted to the gentleman, and that’s all I’ll say about that. I think it does mostly come down to self-confidence. Not to play laptop psychologist, but I think that’s why you have such a strong “but that would never work!” reaction.

Thanks for the apology, and if I’ve misrepresented your opinions or beliefs at all, I apologise as well.

[Lamia]

@EpicNonsense

Where did this whole “supposed to comply” thing come into play? I was under the impression it was to get a feeling of how comfortable the girl was with you by making light contact with you?..

I am quoting the description of the Kino Test in the OP. I don’t know where the quoted material came from, but it is a description of Mystery at work and uses the exact phrase “she is supposed to comply” and described the test as “a compliance test”. If the quoted material had said that it was a test of the woman’s interest or comfort level and had not said that she was “supposed to comply” then I would have considered it stupid but not really objectionable.

[Autolycus]

@Lamia

It isn’t being the Devil’s Advocate if that’s what you actually believe. You indicate in your later post (quoted below) that this is the case.

Is it what I believe, or is it what I want to believe? Honestly I don’t even know anymore. As for the rest of your post, you think the PUA community is creepy. I get it. I think the tactics espoused by the PUA can certainly be shallow and creepy, but that they’re not the great horrible evil you imply with the tone of your posts. You make it sound like some women are delicate little flowers waiting to be picked by rapacious wolves. All in all, I find your actual arguments to be drowned out by the tone of your post sorry.

Anyway, I’m going out, so I’m content to agree to disagree.

[lobotomyboy63]

@Tracy_Lord

lobotomyboy63 — If you smile, you are communicating openly and honestly that you’re friendly (unless you aren’t actually friendly, and are just putting on a facade, in which case, yes, I would call that manipulation). There is a difference between communicating who you are and what you want, and misrepresenting yourself to get what you really want, which you won’t communicate to the other person.

Communication: “Hi! [smile] I’d like to get to know you better. Want to get coffee sometime?”
Intent: He would like to get to know her better, possibly to launch a relationship, and thinks a coffee date is a good way to start.

Manipulation: [wordlessly pulling her hands around to see if she goes along with whatever you do.]
Intent: To find out how far he can control her actions before she calls him on it.

Manipulation (the bad kind) is bad because it’s dishonest. You can learn how to present yourself — yourself — in the best possible way, without having to resort to tactics or tricks.

I don’t think anybody can claim that smiling is never manipulation. E.g.:

“City girls just seem to find out early/How to open doors with just a smile.” ~The Eagles

I return to my example of coaching people on how to interview. They may be nervous as hell, lack confidence in themselves, fear that they will fail etc. and if they asked me, I would coach them to project something they’re not. A firm handshake, look the interviewer straight in the eye, don’t slouch, speak in a clear voice, highlight your accomplishments but don’t brag, and so on…these are not what’s** really **natural for the candidate. Would you agree that the candidate is altering his behavior and projecting a false persona to elicit a desired response?

When you say “Manipulation (the bad kind)” it suggests to me that we may agree that there is a lot of “manipulation” that we can separate out based on its intent. Some is benign stuff, not what the OP is talking about. You ask people how they’re doing to show that you care (even though you may not :D), for instance. Pleasantries, niceties, politesse, whatever—there’s some deceit. And some is qualitative (good/bad) but some is quantitative too, e.g. how far you’re willing to go in establishing a ruse. But the good and/or small stuff isn’t going to sink a battleship or break anybody’s heart.

I read something awhile ago about a study on smiling. Some ethologists wanted to know whether we learn to smile or whether it’s hardwired, like the sucking reflex. They noted that babies who were born blind commence smiling at the same stage as babies born with normal vision. So I think it’s a survival mechanism, bonding us to parents so we will be taken care of, and I think it continues through life. Maybe when you’re boss smiles, it’s “Please don’t create problems for me,” and when your subordinates smile, they’re jonesing for a raise. The smile doesn’t force the person to change…but it attempts to influence them.

I just picked smiling as an example. How you choose to dress, speak, carry yourself, and so on can be as important. Plenty of women shake their asses in clubs to attract attention, after all…and they get it. They may be trying to attract one person in general or, well, the whole room.

@Monstera_deliciosa

Your only manipulating her into thinking you’re friendly if you are not actually friendly. If you are a friendly person, you are just demonstrating a part of your personality in a visual way, even if you hope that she will respond positively to your smile. I really think people in this thread are stretching the definition of “manipulation” to the breaking point.

See above. I always thought the inevitability of manipulation in human interaction was a foregone conclusion, like how they say as soon as you start forming a group, politics are unavoidable within its ranks.

@Autolycus

I guess the reason many girls are upset at such tactics is they see them being used by douchebag guys whose only intent is to get laid. Or, like lobotomyboy63 said, perhaps there is some resentment about man learning how to play the game as skillfully as women do.

Actually I didn’t say the underlined part; I quoted EpicNonsense.

IMO the dating scene is mostly about misdirection. For instance, the eternal “How long do I wait before calling?” The guy’s true instinct, if he really likes her, is to call…but maybe he figures that there are creeps out there that glom onto women, she may get the wrong idea, and he holds back.

Dating advice sought threads often reflect precisely that: “I know what I WANT to do, but what SHOULD I do?” They’re seeking advice about whether what’s going on in the OP’s head will be viewed as “acceptable” by the desired person, or for instance whether calling too soon makes them look like pushovers. So maybe he delays his instinct…but he’s withholding who he really is in the hopes of getting a second date.

[Autolycus]

@Tracy_Lord

FWIW, “Hey, I’m interested in sleeping with you, would you like to come upstairs?” has worked on me within the first three dates, when I was attracted to the gentleman, and that’s all I’ll say about that. I think it does mostly come down to self-confidence. Not to play laptop psychologist, but I think that’s why you have such a strong “but that would never work!” reaction. l.

Oh, we were talking about dates? There’s a difference between using that line on a date versus at a club. I still think many women would not react in the way you did, but I’m willing to give it a try in the future. As for your comment on me having low self-confidence, it’s true at times, but I don’t think that’s really what’s at stake here. Perhaps it is. We’ll see.

[Sleeps_With_Butterflies]

@tdn

Though you’ve watched the videos, it’s clear that you didn’t understand them. He never advocated actually saying those things. He was trying to get guys to think outside of the box. (The misunderstanding is understandable, as the discussion of that first line bridged over from disk one to disk two. It threw me for a loop at first, too.)

Yes, he did say to use them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yK0-echpJE&feature=related

The difference between the shit he’s shoveling and the shit Tom Cruise’s character shoveled in Magnolia is on Tom’s side you had profanity and good looks.

I’d like to see some of these men answer the question asked by Valerieblaise (in reference to hitting on women who are using their "bitch shields’) in post #14:

@Valerieblaise

I’m confused as to why you’d want to flirt with a girl like that. Is “bitchy” a quality you’re looking for in a long-term relationship?

If a girl has her “bitch shields” raised and is showing you that she’s not interested, why would you bother her at all? As Valerblaise asked, are you looking for bitchy?

I would advise EVERYONE to read “The Gift of Fear” by Gavin DeBecker. It will help the ladies with a magnitude of issues, and help the men understand why women DO NOT like these “tests” they think are harmless. The book has been praised up and down on these boards (by men and women alike) for good reason, it is an incredible read. If you’re looking for something to buy someone for the holidays, I can’t recommend this book enough.

I do not know what it is like to be a man. I know there are things that you guys go through that I can’t understand. I can appreciate that. On the flip side, you will never understand what it is like to be a woman. I don’t care how well you know your wife, girlfriend, sister, etc. You don’t know. There is a powerful quote in that book that I wish men would read and try to believe it without thinking it’s overdramatic…

“At core, men are afraid women will laugh at them. At core, women are afraid men will kill them.”

Let me tell you, I was attacked by a man who thought I should be his girlfriend. I know he was crazy in the true sense of the word and I do not believe that most men have terrible intentions. This guy worked at a place I frequented and thought we were flirting with each other. I was being polite to him as I would be anyone who was waiting on me in a service capacity. I thought that he was just friendly to his customers. He seemed as normal as any other guy you’d meet, but he wasn’t. I couldn’t tell.

I feel sorry for men who have decent intentions. They pay the price for nutbars who do terrible things. But as a woman, I can’t always tell the difference between you all because nutbars don’t wear tags announcing it. So when men are testing my compliance with dishonest questions and techniques he will be very quickly dismissed as not worth my time. At the least he’s treating me like cattle. At the worst, who knows?

[Lamia]

@Autolycus

Is it what I believe, or is it what I want to believe? Honestly I don’t even know anymore. As for the rest of your post, you think the PUA community is creepy. I get it.

No, you don’t. I have said nothing at all about any “community”. I don’t know anything about the Pick-Up Artist community or this Mystery guy other than what is in this thread. My criticism has been addressed entirely toward the “compliance test” described in the OP and those who have attempted to defend this specific scenario.

A man who thinks that women are supposed to comply with his whims and goes around making little tests to identify submissive women is a creep. Unless you actually ARE Mystery I don’t know why you’re getting all offended about that.

*I think the tactics espoused by the PUA can certainly be shallow and creepy, but that they’re not the great horrible evil you imply with the tone of your posts. You make it sound like some women are delicate little flowers waiting to be picked by rapacious wolves. All in all, I find your actual arguments to be drowned out by the tone of your post sorry.

*I think it’s very interesting that I’ve spent so much time explaining that it is the ACTUAL WORDS quoted in the OP that I find objectionable and that you and several others have put a lot of effort into trying to convince me that the words “she is supposed to comply” don’t really mean what they literally say…but at the same time you are horribly wounded by my “tone”. Sorry I’m not compliant the way women are supposed to be, but maybe you should try growing a thicker skin. This thread asked for opinions on the quoted material, and I have given mine on a specific section. You’re the one who’s chosen to take this as being all about you. If you want to cry because you have inferred that I’m calling you an evil wolf or something then go ahead, but I didn’t imply any such thing.

[WarmNPrickly]

Women manipulate too. In my experience, the coordination is much more devious for women. The goal is different, but that’s all.

[WhyNot]

@Sleeps_With_Butterflies

“At core, men are afraid women will laugh at them. At core, women are afraid men will kill them.”

Jesus, that’s fucking bleak. Also, not accurate. Or, rather, it may be just one more way in which I’m more “the guy” than “the girl”, this thread notwithstanding.

I’m interested in the book, and I’ll order it from the library. But that quote taken out of context doesn’t ring true for me. ETA: The reason all these mindgames and tests freak me out is because I’m afraid that, secretly, the men doing it are laughing at me, not that they’ll kill me.

[Dangerosa]

@Autolycus

Is it what I believe, or is it what I want to believe? Honestly I don’t even know anymore. As for the rest of your post, you think the PUA community is creepy. I get it. I think the tactics espoused by the PUA can certainly be shallow and creepy, but that they’re not the great horrible evil you imply with the tone of your posts. You make it sound like some women are delicate little flowers waiting to be picked by rapacious wolves. All in all, I find your actual arguments to be drowned out by the tone of your post sorry.

Anyway, I’m going out, so I’m content to agree to disagree.

Really? I think she makes it sound like women are human beings deserving of respect rather than “games” which test “compliance.” Rather the opposite of delicate little flowers.

[Dangerosa]

@WhyNot

Jesus, that’s fucking bleak. Also, not accurate. Or, rather, it may be just one more way in which I’m more “the guy” than “the girl”, this thread notwithstanding.

Accurate for a lot of women - including myself who is a date rape survivor.

[supergoose]

@WhyNot

Jesus, that’s fucking bleak. Also, not accurate. Or, rather, it may be just one more way in which I’m more “the guy” than “the girl”, this thread notwithstanding.

For what it’s worth, I’ve agreed with everything you said in this thread, and that quote is accurate for me, too. (I’m also afraid men are laughing at me, but that’s a mild fear for me, especially by comparison.)

[Autolycus]

@Lamia

I have said nothing at all about any “community”. I don’t know anything about the Pick-Up Artist community or this Mystery guy other than what is in this thread. My criticism has been addressed entirely toward the “compliance test” described in the OP and those who have attempted to defend this specific scenario.

You are correct. My apologies for misrepresenting your posts.

A man who thinks that women are supposed to comply with his whims and goes around making little tests to identify submissive women is a creep. Unless you actually ARE Mystery I don’t know why you’re getting all offended about that.

I get offended for two reasons. One, I generally don’t have a thick skin and have a bad tendency to take things personally. Again, sorry about that. Secondly, I can imagine myself trying that kino test out sometime, and therefore by implication I would be a creep. I don’t consider myself a creep, therefore I’m trying to explain how the test isn’t as bad as you claim.

You’re the one who’s chosen to take this as being all about you.

It’s always all about me… don’t you know that about me? :smack: It’s something I work on.

If you want to cry because you have inferred that I’m calling you an evil wolf or something then go ahead, but I didn’t imply any such thing.

Well, that wasn’t very nice, but I don’t think I’m going to cry about it.

You know, you very possibly could be right. What Mystery wrote in the OP could be about compliance in the sense of how to identify and take advantage of insecure women. Obviously that’s not my intent. I still disagree about what the OP meant by compliance, but in any case I’ll stop taking things personally and try to discuss this more later.

[lobotomyboy63]

@Autolycus

Oh, we were talking about dates? There’s a difference between using that line on a date versus at a club.

From what I saw of the show, I don’t think this point can be underemphasized. They went out into clubs, trying to hook up with strangers. That’s a totally different gig from asking out a cute new co-worker: it’s like comparing an Olympic slalom course to the bunny hill. Skiing is skiing?

This isn’t like trying to meet someone at church. Exaggerating, many club scenes are probably just a bunch of men and women all trying to outgun the others. Uber shallow, these people chase the opposite sex 1) to prove they can have them, and 2) to show members of their own sex that they’re better than them. Total objectification, notches on belts all around.

Yeah, night out with the girls, right…sometimes, but more the exception than the rule. They’re young, the sap is running, and they’re hoping for some excitement (not that that equals sex to the female brain). The women have to expect they’re going to meet guys trying to scam them, so their skepticism should be at its peak and a lot of guys probably end up on the scrap heap.

But the women come back the next weekend all the same. I always assumed that women had a mantra about not sleeping with a guy they met at the club, but it would appear not: IF he pushes the right buttons, they go along with the pickup, which leads to sex.

Dating : picking up someone : : gardening : carpet bombing?

Speaking as a guy who’s been whooshed by more women than I care to remember, I won’t lay more guilt on the men than the women. Sex is #1 on the guy’s list; maybe it’s #10 on hers. If she really had no interest in it, I have to think she wouldn’t provide it.

Quoting Sleeps,

*I feel sorry for men who have decent intentions. They pay the price for nutbars who do terrible things. *

Agreed. There are women who bring down the perception of their gender as well. The result of these seems to be an arms race (Mystery, background check your date), a cold war (pre-emptively shooting people down or just taking ourselves off the market), etc. Fun fun fun for everybody.

[beanpod]

@EpicNonsense

Clearly, you wouldn’t be intentionally using pick up lines or manipulative tactics on a woman you planned to marry some day or liked.

Charming.

[Lamia]

@Autolycus

You are correct. My apologies for misrepresenting your posts.

Thank you, Auto. I appreciate that.

*I get offended for two reasons. One, I generally don’t have a thick skin and have a bad tendency to take things personally. Again, sorry about that. Secondly, I can imagine myself trying that kino test out sometime, and therefore by implication I would be a creep. I don’t consider myself a creep, therefore I’m trying to explain how the test isn’t as bad as you claim.

*As I’ve said, it would be possibly to carry out basically the same acts described in the OP without being a creep. There’s nothing wrong with learning to pick up on signs of interest, and I know it is something that some guys need a little help with. A lot of men don’t realize this, but it’s not that unusual for a woman to make a first move that goes totally ignored. (Biologist Tim Perper says the same thing in his book on human courtship behavior Sex Signals: The Biology of Love.) Part of the problem is that a woman’s idea of a first move can be pretty subtle, and men don’t always recognize it for what it is.

If a guy felt he wasn’t a natural at this sort of thing then I wouldn’t find the following thought process at all creepy: “Maybe this woman I’m talking to is interested in me. I’ll put my hand out, and if she takes it then that’s a good sign. Okay, great! I’ll squeeze and if she squeezes back, that’s a really good sign. Super great! But I don’t want to come on too strong too fast, so I’m going to let her hand go now.” Now, if the guy were awkward or clumsy about it then he could possibly still come across as creepy, but he wouldn’t be creepy in his heart.

*You know, you very possibly could be right. What Mystery wrote in the OP could be about compliance in the sense of how to identify and take advantage of insecure women. Obviously that’s not my intent. I still disagree about what the OP meant by compliance, but in any case I’ll stop taking things personally and try to discuss this more later.

*I really don’t know what else he could have meant. The quotes in the OP expressed a thought process that came across to me as “I will bend this weak woman to my will. She will do as I desire. She will see in my face what I command, and she will comply without my having to speak a word. Good, she has obeyed me. Now I will make her dance like the little puppet that she is. Excellent. But lest she become too confident of my affections, I will now dismiss her by tossing her hand aside.” Ick.

There may be some good tips that one could take away from this Mystery guy, like what msmith537 said about including multiple locations on a date. That’s a good idea, and there’s nothing creepy or wrong at all with having a date where you go to a couple of different places. There’s nothing wrong with holding hands either – as a romantic physical activity it’s about as innocent as you can get. It’s the intent behind these actions that makes them creepy or not, and the OP’s quoted passage did not seem to have good intentions behind it.

I don’t mean like Mystery didn’t want to marry the woman first or something, but that there didn’t appear to be any respect for or even acknowledgment of the fact that his target is an individual with her own feelings and opinions. Heck, there wasn’t even anything about Mystery actually finding her particularly desirable! Like Tracy Lord said, it’s an objectification of the woman. She’s just some anonymous female who’s going to be the next notch on his headboard because he’s the world’s greatest pick-up artist.