Stan Van Gundy tells it like it is, and some in the sports media is pissed

The Game Room
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Last night, the embattled head coach of the Orlando Magic Stan Van Gundy dropped a bombshell everyone already knew about, that his star player, 3 time Defensive Player of the Year, best center in the league Dwight Howard told management that he wanted a new coach. What the assembled media didn’t expect, nor did Howard, was Van Gundy confirming that he knew Howard wanted him out, something that is usually never said, and the awkwardness that happened when Howard showed up to the interview (you can see it in the embedded video) trying to pretend like everything’s fine.

Of course, this has generated all kinds of hand-wringing, including last night’s Magic game on TNT (which the Magic lost, badly, to a depleted New York Knicks team). As some of you may know, Shaq is now on the show and injects his brand of mumbling childish glee into every show. But what is interesting is that Shaq used to be coached by Van Gundy a few years ago back in Miami, and similar rumors about him asking for the coach to be fired also came up. Shaq responded to those rumors last night, saying he was never that childish, but his dislike of Van Gundy is well-known.

What struck me most though is that pretty much all of the guys on the show, all former players mind you (Shaq, Kenny Smith, Charles Barkley), all chastised Van Gundy for revealing that he knew even though this kind of player-coach rift happens quite often and probably everyone in the media knew or suspected as much. Stan was just confirming the rumors. As he said himself, he doesn’t like bullshit.

I think that people, especially those 3, are too hard on Van Gundy. The team wasn’t going anywhere and had lost their last 4 games in a row before Stan made his feelings known, and even after he walked out of the media room and left Howard to fend for himself, Howard was still too much of a pussy to admit it and kept trying to deny it. After the game, in a historically bad 8 point effort where he didn’t score until 3 seconds left in the 3rd quarter, Howard brushed off all questions about the situation with a “No Comment”.

This is the kind of BS I hate. The story’s already out there, and if you’re man enough to cry to management to get your coach, probably in the top 5 coaches of the league, fired, then you should be man enough to admit it and explain why. What I’m disappointed most in is Charles Barkley, who usually has no reservations about what he says, basically saying that Van Gundy should have kept his mouth shut. Yes, maybe he violated the confidentiality of the person in upper management who told him about Howard’s wishes, and maybe Howard has a right to get upset that someone in upper management told Van Gundy, but the NBA is a player’s league, and they can’t fire Howard. Either they play through this with Van Gundy, or he gets fired, or he stays and Howard leaves for free agency at the end of next year, or the Magic trade him for lunch money and some gum.

The last option simply isn’t an option, because no matter how good Van Gundy is, no Howard on the team means its fighting for 8th place in the forseeable future instead of contending for a championship. There’s almost no way this can come out well for Van Gundy, so why shouldn’t he confirm the rumors? The way I see it, spoiled 20-something year olds are tired of listening to him and want someone new they can bully, and that’s wrong. Howard didn’t get far without Van Gundy, who pushed him to be the defensive player that he is now. No available coach that I can see is going to be an upgrade. It is Howard in the wrong here, not Van Gundy, and Charles should have said that. But I guess he still thinks himself a player more than an objective sports commentator.

What I hope the Magic organization will do is simply get the two talking. Players in the past have gotten coaches fired before, but usually not a good coach on a good team. The play of Howard last night against the lowly Knicks is proof that this isn’t Michael Jordan or Magic Johnson getting their coach fired and then moving on to win multiple championships. At best, the Magic is the 3rd best team in the East and something like 5-7th in the league right now. The organization needs to either tell Howard to stop sulking or initiate a trade for him in the offseason so this circus won’t happen again. And Howard needs to talk to Van Gundy face to face, if he hasn’t already, and hash out why he suddenly cannot listen to the same guy who took them to the Finals a few years ago.

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It’s not sudden. It’s been an open secret for years that Howard doesn’t like Van Gundy. I’ve never understood why, since he’s a very good coach and I think few other coaches could have done as much with this team as he has. It’s true that coaches usually don’t admit to conflicts like this, so in that sense Van Gundy is breaking the code or whatever, but I don’t care about that at all. I have no doubt Van Gundy is telling the truth.

This is a big problem for Orlando, though. Howard is the star player and wants input into running the team, which a lot of star players get - Van Gundy and the GM will both probably be gone this offseason because Howard doesn’t like them or have faith in them - but Howard doesn’t know how to put together a basketball team. So giving him a big say in the direction of the team is going to hurt the team and also hamstring them if he leaves. They went out and got Big Baby Davis because Howard liked him, and that’s not working so well. Neither is the contract they gave extension they gave Jason Richardson, and supposedly Howard also wanted the team to keep the washed-up Gilbert Arenas at a ridiculous price (they let him go). And as it is, Orlando is going to have a hard time improving the team this offseason. So at this point it seems like it’s just a question of how badly the team can be screwed up by the time they lose Howard next spring or summer.

I like Dwight Howard a lot as a player, but in terms of his personal image it’s hard to see how things could get any worse for him unless he strangles his coach.

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I read about some possible issues that past players (Shaq) has had with him. Apparently he’s too negative, Shaq infamously called him “The master of panic”, but so what? The guy’s a good coach, and if it weren’t for a botched layup at the end of, I think, game 3 or 4 of the Finals against the Lakers, they would have been tied. I don’t see why many players think they can outcoach their coach, and if its simply that Howard was tired of Van Gundy’s attitude then I just have to say he’s a stupid whiner and he needs to suck that shit up and play.

I think its fine to give players input, especially star players, and let them know what’s going on before its decided. I personally think it was very skeevy of the Lakers to try and trade Lamar and Pau for Chris Paul without telling Kobe, or hiring Mike Brown without telling him. Kobe, more than Dwight, has earned that right. But I wouldn’t want Kobe to be running the GM duties. Giving him input, or letting him know beforehand, is fine. But like you said, Howard seems to want much more control than that

Yeah his play is great, and I used to think his personal image is great too. But after this last year, and ESPECIALLY his media interview which is continued to deny what happened, makes me really dislike him now. Plus, he didn’t want to come to the Lakers for a stupid reason makes me think he’s not right in the head. If offered right now, at this minute, I would not trade Bynum for Howard. Bynum’s probably the #2 best center in the league right now, its just not too much of an upgrade and not worth the headache

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The get back to the main topic for a second - I think the reason guys like Barkley are unhappy with Van Gundy is that he wouldn’t have wanted this to happen to him. Nobody wants it to be confirmed that they’re undermining their coach and their public statements that they’re fully committed to winning this season.

I agree. They don’t have to be friends to work well together, and the coach really is not supposed to be everybody’s friend. It’s hard to make that work.

It makes sense to make sure these guys feel like they’re in the loop. But it’s not something they’re entitled to, and it’s not something they are necessarily going to be good at. It definitely looks like Howard is bad at that. What do you do with a guy who is the core of your team and who wants input but makes bad suggestions? How do you turn down his ideas without making him feel rejected, which is just going to encourage him to leave?

I disagree. It’s not something you earn and it’s not a right. It’s a perk like big hotel suites and the other nonsense the players get. It may be something that’s necessary, since you need your star players to support what you’re doing, but they’re not entitled to input or advance notice on trades and hiring. Kobe absolutely wanted Chris Paul, although I’m not sure he wanted him at the price of Odom and Gasol. The team wouldn’t have kept a subpar Derek Fisher for as long as they did if he was not close with Kobe. He also wanted them to trade Bynum for Jason Kidd years ago and he never liked Phil Jackson, although I think their relationship improved after Kobe decided they worked well together or that he needed him. I won’t even get into the Shaq vs. Kobe thing.

The bottom line here - and I think we’d agree about this - is that it’s in the team’s best interest to make the star players feel welcome, but the interests of the team and the player can conflict. Players have a shorter-term view, they think they know best, they often want to play with their friends, and they don’t have to worry about paying the luxury tax. Players can say “make some changes or I leave,” and then they can still leave if the changes don’t work out. That’s the situation Cleveland found itself in after LeBron left, and that’s what Orlando has to worry about now.

He’s coming off as a big phony at this point, and his insecurity is also kind of annoying. I recognize he’s being asked to make a tough choice and he’ll take a hit either way, but just make a choice. I didn’t watch the Magic-Knicks game, but it looks like Howard pouted and made zero effort.

Nah, that’s just your pro-Laker bias talking. He didn’t want to come to the Bulls for some of the same reasons - primacy and shoe marketing, apparently - but I don’t particularly blame him. You can’t bash him for wanting to be the main guy when everybody’s still murdering LeBron for not wanting to be the main guy.

And you’d be wrong. Howard is a much better player and Bynum is quite the headache himself. He’s becoming a bigger one all the time, too.

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In Barkley’s defense, the vibe I got from him was:

Howard shouldn’t have tried to get VG fired
Mr. Anonymous Management Person shouldn’t have relayed that to VG
VG shouldn’t have said anything publicly

I agree with this entirely, and would say that the person least in the wrong is Howard. As an employee, you have the right to express your displeasure with management to an appropriate management level person. Management has the right to tell you to pound sand, but they shouldn’t be further undermining you by talking behind your back.

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Yes, you do. And Howard does have the right to tell the team “if you don’t replace the coach and the GM, I’m out of here next season.” We’re also entitled to take the position that that’s stupid of him. And it’s probably dumb of the team to allow word of that to get back to Van Gundy, although you have to figure he knew what was going on anyway based on his relationship with Howard.

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I think these former players are seriously not thinking hard enough about the ramifications of asking for a coach to be fired. If they’re mad at Van Gundy for making it public, they need to be just as mad as Howard for demanding to get rid of a bad coach and I just wasn’t getting that vibe from them last night that they had any anger for Howard, it was more like all sympathy and pity.

My thing on the coaching issue is, if the guy’s a bad coach, and your team’s not top 3 in a conference or something, then you really have no right to ask for the coach to be fired. If you’re the Clippers last year and you have Del Negro who most people think is not ready for a head coaching job, then maybe I can see your point. But even if you do ask for a coaching change, I think it is right and proper if the coach fights back and calls you out, even in public. If the player can’t handle that, they shouldn’t be calling out their coach

I think most players would accept an explanation of why their suggested trade or acquisition wouldn’t work. They would appreciate being heard more. But then that’s just me

Yup, totally in agreement

Its interesting because I never got the impression that he was such a big baby. A few years ago, when an aging Shaq had been on Howard’s ass all the time for the perceived slights, the “stealing” of the Superman nickname, the little insults that he wasn’t good, I had all the sympathy in the world for Howard and thought Shaq was totally out of line. Now I still think Shaq was an ass, but Howard’s becoming a whiner too

:stuck_out_tongue: Everything I say is pro-Lakers bias!

Bynum might be a better fit though.

I agree with that too, with one exception. If you as the player are trying to undermine the coach by going behind his back, I think the coach has every right to do the same thing. That interview was hilariously awkward, and I loved to see Howard squirm once he realized what Van Gundy said. The faces on the reporters were all smirking as Stan walked out, that was priceless.

If players want to complain about the coach, they should go to the coach and tell him what they think. If the coach doesn’t want to listen, then tell him he’s going to go over his head. But don’t look the coach in the eye and pretend everything’s ok because that doesn’t give the coach any opportunity to respond, react, or change.

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I expect players to relate to each other more than they relate to a coach- especially star players like Barkley and Shaq.

I hope so, but I don’t know.

He has a bigger offensive repertoire from what I can see and I agree he’s the best true center in the league after Howard, but he’s unquestionably a lesser player. And if he thinks it’s a good idea to shoot three-pointers and nobody can tell him any different, it’s going to be a problem.

They might have the right to, but that wouldn’t make it a good idea. The coach is generally supposed to be the adult in the room and he’s supposed to put the good of the team ahead of his problems with a particular player. Still, this situation is very funny and the honesty is sort of refreshing.

I’m sure a lot of players do that all the time. I don’t think Howard has been telling Van Gundy that everything is OK and then asking management to fire him. This is their fifth season together and I think both of them know what the state of their relationship is. The only thing that might’ve changed here is that Van Gundy figured Howard has asked management to fire him, spoke to management, and confirmed it’s true.

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Van Gundy is a great coach, he has done a lot with this team and he always has a great play ready when needed. But he is horrible with people. Last month we beat Chicago in their homecourt and in the post game interview he was asked how they managed to contain them, his answer after his team beat the best team in the league on their own court was “i don’t know, nobody is playing defense and we are not even trying”. Several times during the season Ryan Anderson who has been our breakout star player this year after being a throw in on the Vince Carter trade has been criticized for not getting enough rebounds in games that a)we won and b)he scored over 30 points. I can easily understand why some players hate him, it must get old dealing with his personality. There are some players on the Magic that love him, mostly because they have full permission to take threes whenever they want.

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I take your point, but it doesn’t look like he’s much of a rebounder.

That’s their offense.

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Ryan is usually a good rebounder, the point is Van Gundy is always extremely negative towards his players and i am sure it gets old eventually. Next team to grab Van Gundy is probably going to be much better for a few years but i would be willing to bet the end result will be the same as it was in Orlando and Miami.

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My question is why do people think Van Gundy has an obligation to Howard to keep it secret?

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His basic rebounding stats are not impressive for a guy of his size, although obviously he plays with Dwight Howard. And yes, I understand your point about the negativity and how grating that might get. The team is still doing well, and however the players think about him personally I don’t think it’s hurting the team’s performance. I don’t think Van Gundy’s next job will end up like his job with the Heat did unless he has Shaq on the team and Pat Riley in the front office. :wink:

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I agree 100% with your analysis of player/managment relations, and you put it better than I would (and have in the past).

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I assume, just from what I’ve heard him say and the way the team seems to behave, that the rift started with Van Gundy wanting more out of Howard and Howard thinking that he’s giving plenty.

Most incredibly talented players react negatively to good coaching at some point, because the best thing you can do in terms of winning with guys like that is try to turn them into sociopaths. I bet Tracy McGrady and Vince Carter both hated their coaches when they were 25, because they knew how good they were and probably didn’t want to hear that they had a responsibility to dominate all the time. I think it’s the same thing with Howard - the only thing that keeps him from getting 30 and 30 on any given night is that he seems fairly psychologically ordinary. If he played like the world was out to get him he wouldn’t be averaging 2.2 blocks and 23 combined attempts this year. Which isn’t to say he’s a low effort player by any stretch of the imagination; just that he isn’t always trying to prove a point the way Jordan or Bird or Olajuwon always were. Howard obviously doesn’t respect Van Gundy, but Van Gundy’s a good coach and he knows that his job is to try to create a Garnett instead of a Webber. The relationship between the two of them this year isn’t really the point.

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Who says the obligation is to Howard? VG doesn’t own the team, he works for the team. A person in team management gave VG the scoop about Howard’s request, and he goes and blabs it to the media? Now there’s a media circus around the team, the players sure seem to have mailed it in, and VG may have lost the team for good.

It’s VGs job to get the most production possible out of his players. As bad as his relationship with Howard was, it’s likely far worse now, and his other players may not respect him anymore either.

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That isn’t at all what happened, although I’m sure it will become the general storyline regardless. People had been speculating that Howard wants him gone for months. He didn’t call a press conference to tell the media – they asked him specifically what he had to say about the rumors that Howard asked the team to fire him. All Van Gundy sad was “I know he has.”

The team mailed it in weeks ago. If I were Van Gundy I wouldn’t feel obligated to pretend it was all a big mystery at this point either. What’s there to protect?

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Years, I think.

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Yeah, you’re right. I should have said speculating that he’s demanded it.