As for Palpy, he had to keep shooting the lightening at Windu - he was totally controlling that scene. He knew Anakin was weakening, but that he wasn’t quite there yet. He had to appeal to Anakin’s mercy and sense of justice; ironically, he had to appeal to Anakin’s good side to get him to turn. Turning of the lightening and saying, “well, here I am” wouldn’t have worked; it wouldn’t have turned Anakin, which was the goal. The only way to do it was to make Anakin think that Windu was close to destroying him.
Now, on to the questions:
I’m divided on Grevous. There’s a lot about Grevous that’s cool, but there’s a lot that really sucks too (hmmm…much like the franchise itself. I’m seeing a pattern). He’s badass, but he’s constantly running away like a pussy. We see too much of the coward for too long. His lightsabre play was seriously awesome, but over the top. Helicopter spinning lightsabres? C’mon, be serious. I’m not certain where to put him - I guess he’s a step below Darth Maul.
Roland, you make me laugh. Thanks.
Sympathy for Anakin? Sorta. Lucas was doing really well for the first half of the movie - I did sympathize with Anakin, could see his confusion and conflict. This was good. Until. Until Palpy breaks out with the “well, I don’t really know, but we’ll save her together.” What?! That’s Anakin’s only motivation - saving his wife! It was dead wrong, for me. I can only see Anakin responding to this with a giant “What?!”, then slicing Palpatine in half. There’s just no way this scene works.
Mace Windu’s death wasn’t bad. I don’t think he had any chance in hell of beating Palpy - the Emperor was totally playing that scene, and Windu was toast either way. I have no beef with it. I did like the idea of this being the first time we see Windu taking action - hadn’t thought of that before.
On level ground? Yep, I think Yoda wins. But they weren’t, so Yoda takes the better part of valor and lives to fight another day.
Nope. No way that scene plays well as written. Someone shoulda smacked Lucas upside the head for that. I really like the “Good” idea someone brought up earlier - now that’s chilling. That’s Vader. “Nooooooooo” = not Vader.
Is it just me or does General Grievous sound like a cartoon character (almost like Ren Hoek)?
Actually the character is MUCH cooler in the cartoons. So yeah he is a cartoon character.
Do you have any sympathy for Annakin?
Should I? Other than the fact that he loves his wife, we are given no reason to even like the character in any of the three movies.
Even that isn’t really a good reason, since in the Lucasverse, love is not a positive force, but a one way ticket to the dark side.
Do you think Mace Windu’s death was worthy or was it a punk-ass way to go?
Not really. Yeah he got cheaped by Annakin, but many of the Jedi went down much easier.
The two Jedi with him, THEY went down like punk-ass bitches to the sith.
If they were fighting on level ground, could Yoda have taken Darth Sidious?
Considering his fighting style (Tasmainian Pinball) I would say the lack of level ground would be Yoda’s element.
Would the “Noooooooo!!!” scene been less cheesy if Vader had said it immediately after Sidious told him Padme was dead instead of waiting a couple of seconds? How about if he destroyed more stuff?
The “NOOOO” Sounded to me Like James Earl Jones was trying to do “the voice” from Seinfeld.
I agree with many others that the scene would have been far better had he just used the dark side to destroy stuff, no words.
But the problem is that it’s completely contradictory. Palpatine asks him to spy on the Jedi–that’s OK. Vice versa–not OK. Palpatine urges Anakin to kill Dooku–troublesome, but fine. Mace wants to kill Palpatine (who just killed 3 other Jedi)–much more troublesome. Palpatine lies about being too weak, but then punts Mace out the window with the lightning. Why does Anakin continue to believe him? And the first test of loyalty is to murder dozens of Jedi, including Padawans! Anakin turns on a dime, and, as was mentioned in a previous post, there’s never any indication that Padme’s in the slightest bit of danger (other than his dreams).
The pathological fear of Padme’s death (and his creepy compulsion around her from the second film), and the emotional investment they have in each other, is so underdeveloped it hardly seems credible–especially for a Jedi who’s been part of a myriad of engagements where he’s killed (presumably) hundreds (if not thousands) of beings and has seen death in all its horror. Being so preoccupied by the dream is also a major miscalculation because it reminds people of the preposterous circumstances of his mother’s fate (you know, the mother he obssessed about yet ignored for a decade).
Essentially, the turn is wholly unconvincing–not only because it’s so reliant on underdeveloped motivation, but also because it depends on Anakin, being incredibly stupid, even for a Jedi (I’ve always thought he’s the “chosen one” because he’s dumber than your standard issue Jedi thicky). So the answer to #2 is No.
#1: The prequels had the bad habit of introducing a cool villain, only to kill him off by the end of the movie. Maul. Jango. Grievous. No time to develop characterization, they’re dependant on bells & whistles–cool character design and “distinctive” voices. All GG’s voice does is remind me that there’s really nothing substantial behind it.
#3: Mace went out like a punk–but what I always wondered is that we’ve seen Anakin & Obi-Wan perform feats of superhuman ability in falling ridiculous heights only to survive by grabbing a moving airspeeder. If Mace is so badass, that fall out the window shouldn’t have killed him, since he should be able to to a one-handed grab somewhere.
#4: Yoda, I suppose, just so long as I wouldn’t have to watch him hop around like a Mexican jumping bean.
#5: In a movie which has dozens of examples of dialogue so bad no level of artistry could salvage the scene, this (admittedly bad) one hardly stands out to me.
Is it just me or does General Grievous sound like a cartoon character (almost like Ren Hoek)?
IT was weird… I think because they had a voice over artist do it and not a regular actor. Wasn’t Gary Oldman supposed to do it? If it had been a slight variation on a familar voice I would have accepted it more.
And it sounded nothing like Ren.
2. Do you have any sympathy for Annakin?
Tiny bit… as much sympathy as I have for the kids who do school shootings because they are so disaffected. The kid was screwed up from the get go so I didn’t see the story so much as the fall of Anakin as watching the inevitably that this kid is going to go bad.
Do you think Mace Windu’s death was worthy or was it a punk-ass way to go?
I liked… a little too drawn out. A little too much “No listen to me Anakin!” “No listen to me.” “No, me!”
4. If they were fighting on level ground, could Yoda have taken Darth Sidious?
No. Sidious was wily as all hell.
Would the “Noooooooo!!!” scene been less cheesy if Vader had said it immediately after Sidious told him Padme was dead instead of waiting a couple of seconds? How about if he destroyed more stuff?
No. It was bad. A misplaced homage to monster movies. It might have been passable if we saw things crumbing and bending and then heard the NOOOOO, like it was pent up…
1. Is it just me or does General Grievous sound like a cartoon character (almost like Ren Hoek)?
Yes, he does, but I was willing to go with it. He had four lightsabres, so that was okay.
2. Do you have any sympathy for Annakin?
No, no, a thousand times no! He’s a jerk and a loser, and apparently not too bright. Also, he whines.
3. Do you think Mace Windu’s death was worthy or was it a punk-ass way to go?
My first instinct here was punk, obviously, but I think RickJay has a good point about Jules Winnfield. Clearly, Mace Windu should have been super cool like Jules, but wasn’t. I would say Lucas is punk-ass for not giving us a super cool character in the first place. Either way, someone is punk.
4. If they were fighting on level ground, could Yoda have taken Darth Sidious?
Is he prepared? Then yes.
5. Would the “Noooooooo!!!” scene been less cheesy if Vader had said it immediately after Sidious told him Padme was dead instead of waiting a couple of seconds? How about if he destroyed more stuff?
By that time, I think nothing was making this less cheesy. Destoying more stuff would have been cool, even though it has no effect on the overal cheese quotient.
Yeah, Grievous didn’t quite work in this movie. A shame, because he was amazingly cool in the Clone Wars cartoon.
Almost, but not quite. The whole process of turning him just went way too fast. It should have been the focus of the entire trilogy, not just crammed into the last one.
I thought it was a worthy death, if you overlook the truncated setup for Anakin turning.
Maybe. They seemed pretty evenly matched.
That was absolutely unsalvagable. An inarticualte scream of rage might have worked better, but I think it would have been better if his response had been “more machine than man, now. Twisted and evil.”
Alright, lets see how this comes out. I had trouble with finding good format to debate, and also a few grammtical errors, but I’ll go with it anyway.
I’ll grant you that. Barring another viewing of that scene to see the exact dialog, it does seem as though Anakin is willing to be Palpatines eyes and ears in the Jedi council. But it’s not okay for him to spy on Palpatine for the council.
But the two examples of Jedi’s dealing with unarmed combatants still stands. Although in the case of Palpatine, Anakin also has his own motives for wanting Palpatine to be brought in alive.
See, I don’t think he turned on a dime. Palpatine has beeen feeding him lies and he’s starting to believe them. The bringing back the dead, or preserving life . He wants Palpatine alive for that power. Also, Palpative is feeding him lies about the Jedi council trying to take over. Sure enough Mace wants to kill Palpatine, and that is against usual Jedi protocal, so Anakin feels that Mace’s actions support what Palpatine said.
Given that as his motives, he does turn quickly, but it is still justified. At this point, all he wants is for Padme to live. And if that means killing the power hungry Jedi, then that’s what he’ll do. He’s petrafied of losing Padme and will do anything to save her.
He wasn’t able to see his mother because of his training, yet I feel the film makes it clear that he still clearly cares about her. Something that as a Jedi he’s not supposed to do. Same with Padme, he shouldn’t even love her, that’s a weakness that leads to the darkside, and an emotion he’s carried with him all through his training. And the dream does justify his concern for his Padme dream. He has one about his mother dying and it came true, then when he has that behind him he’s happily married, only to have the dream again. So for following the circumstances of the first, he really doesn’t want to lose another person he’s come to love greatly. He was certain the dream would come true again.
And that’s why I find EpIII ties it all up nicely. He was acted purely in an irrational fashion for his love of Padme and it all came to nothing. One of the most powerful Jedi to live and he fell for his weakness: love. Then to see him ruined, burned up, missing limbs and put into the Vader suit only to find out his love died anyway, the guy is crushed, emotionally. He was so good and he had a bright future. I think that it’s that point (the god awful “Nooooo”) where he realizes all that he’s done, and all of it for nothing. That’s where the OT comes into play where he’s essentially a puppet of the Emperor. He’s lost it all, why not play along as Vader at that point? He already took the first steps so he keeps going.
From there on, I think he’ just pretty much going through the motions of being a Sith lord. At that point, it’s all he has. His love replaced by anger at his own fall, and the lies that caused it. And since being defeated by Obi Wan, he’s not powerful enough to take the Emperor on, so Vader just stays as his puppet, a shell of what he once was. Which can be supported by the lines in the OT.
On preview, what Miller said for point number two, I felt the same way when I first seen Ep III. Way to rushed. Moreso when you consider that Ep I wasted a lot of time on frivalous stuff not essential to the main story. Did we even need to know about Qui Gon? Episode I could have had elements from I + II in it to leave II and III to fully flesh out the story presented in III.
But Mace didn’t just fall out a window, he’d just been stunned with Force bolts, and then thrown out the window, so the Emperor could have made sure he threw him to a distance where there was nothing for Mace to potentially grab onto.
After thinking about this a bit more, I say yes, Yoda could easily whoop Sidious’ ass. When he was fighting Dooku, it took him a moment to gauge the extent of Dooku’s abilities, but then he was all “much to learn, have you.” He then made it pretty clear he was about to kick his ass. The thing is, Yoda’s a good guy and always gets distracted having to save someone.
When he was fighting Sidious, it was kinda the same thing. Yoda takes a moment to get a feel for his abilities, then handily tosses Sidious across the room. Sidious tried hitting him with his Force bolts, and Yoda not only can deflect those with his hands, but he channeled them into force “ball lightning” and threw it back at Sidious. Then in the auditorium, while Sidious is 100% focused on fighting Yoda, knowing all he really has to do is delay Yoda long enough for reinforcements to arrive, Yoda is distracted by the bigger picture. What’s more important at that point? Defeating Sidious or getting out of there with the information he’s gathered?
If it were just Yoda vs. Sidious, and Yoda weren’t distracted by his concerns for his fellow Jedi & the fate of the galaxy, then I’m certain Yoda would make fairly short work of Sidious.
I don’t think level ground makes any difference. In fact, I think uneven terrain would give the smaller & more agile Yoda the advantage. Unless by “level ground” you meant, “even playing field.”
1. Is it just me or does General Grievous sound like a cartoon character (almost like Ren Hoek)?
Yea, kinda. Still, compared to a lot of the cringe-worthy crap that crept into eps I-III, he wasn’t so bad.
2. Do you have any sympathy for Annakin?
Almost. I wanted to, really I did, but damn the script and acting made it just about impossible.
3. Do you think Mace Windu’s death was worthy or was it a punk-ass way to go?
Actually, I think this was pulled off just right. Yea, it was punk-ass, but it served a good plot purpose and wasn’t too cheesy.
Oh, about Mace not being a bad-ass, as some have implied: Man, he had a purple light saber. Purple!!
4. If they were fighting on level ground, could Yoda have taken Darth Sidious?
Yoda, as presented in eps I-II, could have taken down Sidious with ease regardless of level ground or not. Lucas ordered him to take a dive, so he did. And not too convincingly.
5. Would the “Noooooooo!!!” scene been less cheesy if Vader had said it immediately after Sidious told him Padme was dead instead of waiting a couple of seconds? How about if he destroyed more stuff?
Not a chance. Others have already mentioned far better options for this scene above.
I think many have pointed out before, but General Grievious did exist in a cartoon before!
No. His turning to the dark side is very much like a rebellious teenager breaking curfew
The action scene when the Emperor took on the five Jedis is totally laughable. Suddenly, everyone is moving so slowly, including the Emperor. Suddenly, Jedi Masters who can parry hail of blaster bolts are dispatched by elementary stabs and swings.
But oh yeah, Mace Windu. No. I never felt anything for Mace Windu, or any of the Jedi Master. They are so one-sided, plain, totally uninteresting – I know that entire books and tomes have been ascribed to each of them in other auxilluary materials (like those full-colour, full blown Star Wars guidebook in which absolutely everything, from lightsaber to belt, from cloak to sythenetic underwear, must be labelled), but in the movies their death I don’t lament.
I absolutely have no idea why Yoda suddenly became so weak when facing off Darth Sidious. I was screaming, “Use the Force, Yoda!” when he was sliding off the speaker’s platform. What happened? Suddenly out of Force Points?
IMHO, he shalln’t have said anything at all. Another Doper had another take on this scene which I think is far superior, something along the line of Darth Vader just taking it in his stride.
To answer the question, it may be less chessy, but then it is like minusing 1 from infinity.
The Rise of Geekdom (my choice for the naming of this era of Western Civilization) has meant that 90% of my friends now express embarrassment over 90% of their own hobbies.
1. Is it just me or does General Grievous sound like a cartoon character (almost like Ren Hoek)?
Naming has always been a Lucas weak point – even his best efforts have often included awful names. I didn’t think anything of it when I was a kid, but now it’s hard to consider names like “Han Solo” and “Leia Organa” without having one’s mind in the gutter.
2. Do you have any sympathy for Annakin?
I did. He was a stupid man taken in by the promise of a strong leader who would sweep away all the problems of democracy. Christensen is far from a fantastic actor, but he’s getting better, and Annakin’s character development was one of the stronger points of an otherwise weak trilogy of prequels. Sadly, there are too many real-life Annakins in the world.
Hollywood, of course, has forgotten how to do tragedy. Too many happy endings. Hamlet it ain’t, but Episode III did make me feel at least a little of “pity” and “fear” that’s been demanded of tragedy since Aristotle.
3. Do you think Mace Windu’s death was worthy or was it a punk-ass way to go?
It was less Hollywood than would be expected. The good guys go down fighting, the bad guys get pushed out of windows.
Actually, one of the elements that rarely gets talked about with the prequels is deliberate parody of other Hollywood movies. In the second movie, this is especially obvious. Annakin talks about how democracy and civil institutions or too slow – he’s a Schwarzenegger or a Stallone character killing the crooks without a warrant. His romance to Padme is played like a bad 1950s film, but instead of being beautiful, that romance dooms the universe to a monstrous empire. Good guys get thrown out of windows. True love does not conquer all.
It was clumsily handled, but I think it shows Lucas is a little more thoughtful than we give him credit for. It’s like Starship Troopers, another much-maligned science fiction that warns how easily media comes to encourage fascist tendencies.
4. If they were fighting on level ground, could Yoda have taken Darth Sidious?
1. Is it just me or does General Grievous sound like a cartoon character (almost like Ren Hoek)?
General Grievous was CGI. He was a cartoon character. That said, his voice didn’t bother me.
2. Do you have any sympathy for Annakin?
A little. Kid’s got issues, and never really learned proper coping mechanisms. Sure does whine a lot, though.
3. Do you think Mace Windu’s death was worthy or was it a punk-ass way to go?
It was a bit punk-ass, but less so than a blaster in the back.
4. If they were fighting on level ground, could Yoda have taken Darth Sidious?
Maybe, but I think not. I don’t think Yoda can maintain the jumpy levels of activity for sustained periods of time. He’d get worn down.
5. Would the “Noooooooo!!!” scene been less cheesy if Vader had said it immediately after Sidious told him Padme was dead instead of waiting a couple of seconds? How about if he destroyed more stuff?
Nothing could save that scene, except the removal of the “NOO”. I would have preferred silent crushing.
I heartily recommend the Clone Wars cartoons – better than EP. III if you ask me. And the good General kicked all kinds of Jedi ass instead of being a coughing wimp.
Is it just me or does General Grievous sound like a cartoon character (almost like Ren Hoek)?
His voice was OK. He was a wasted opportunity though. He died too easily and wasn’t as scary as he should have been.
Do you have any sympathy for Annakin?
Oh god no. He was a whiny idiot.
Do you think Mace Windu’s death was worthy or was it a punk-ass way to go?
Totally lame. He should have diced Palpatine immediately. He knew he was a Sith Lord, and behind everything. He let himself get killed.
If they were fighting on level ground, could Yoda have taken Darth Sidious?
Yeah.
Would the “Noooooooo!!!” scene been less cheesy if Vader had said it immediately after Sidious told him Padme was dead instead of waiting a couple of seconds? How about if he destroyed more stuff?
Nothing could have improved that, it was totally ridiculous.
I’d just like to point out that Jules Winnfield quit because of a near miss. He’s a hitman. Getting shot at by people he’s trying to kill should be everyday shit for him. Yet he treats it like a religious experience and decides he’s had enough. Jules was cool but that’s punk right there. Still, Vincent got punked even worse, getting executed with his own gun.
Great suggestion. How simple it is to turn a cheesy scene into something haunting and powerful.
Why didn’t somebody have the guts to tell Lucas how sucky this scene was before it went to theaters? Or did somebody mention it, but Lucas’s Death Star-sized ego prevented him from listening to reason?
