Stick a fork in her: Clinton's done

[Waenara]

@stolichnaya

“This is how the legislature works- I voted present, there were potential constitutional problems with the amended version of a bill that I had originally co-sponsored, and rather than vote for it, or vote “nay” against a bill I had sponsored, I voted “present” which is tantamount to saying, this bill has my support assuming that we can modify it somewhat”. That is a wonky explanation which will satisfy only fellow wonks. This layperson wonders why he did not vote “nay”.

I’m a layperson and it makes sense to me. That way you more accurately gauge what the legislature thinks of the bill.

For example, if a bill that doesn’t pass 20 votes to 80 votes then you’d assume that a lot of people are against the bill. But if it doesn’t pass 20 votes to 30 votes and 50 “present” votes, then you see that the majority of people aren’t against the bill, and would probably support if it were modified.

It’s kind of similar to having a trial system where the verdict can be guilty/not guilty/not proven. Or having an election where you can vote for A vs. B vs. none of the above. It gives you more information than a simple dichotomy would.

[Carol_Stream]

@Diogenes the Cynic

It isn’t fair to try to pigeonhole anyone in any legislature based on preliminary votes on bills and it would be virtually impossible to find anyone who appeared to be 100% ideologically consistent in how they vote.

I suppose, but how do you explain his rating as the most Liberal Senator?

Hillary’s only 16th, fwiw.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Carol Stream

I suppose, but how do you explain his rating as the most Liberal Senator?

Hillary’s only 16th, fwiw.

What does “most liberal” mean? What does “liberal” mean?

This rating scale for liberalism comes from a conservative magazine called the National Journal. It’s not like it’s some kind of objective or scientific analasis. It’s a right wing magazine using a contrived, phony scale to politic against the democratic candidates (coincdentally, they decided that John Kerry was the “most liberal” Democrat in '04).

What this amounts to is that a right wing magazine called Barack Obama a “liberal.” What a shock.

[Shayna]

@stolichnaya

But if he votes nay for something he previously supported, then he says “because they changed it”. Simple explanation.

I think Waenara covered this very well. But since you’re concerned that you’ve only heard explanations from Obama, would it help to have the word of other Illinois Legislators?

‘Present’ votes defended by Ill. lawmakers

. . . Obama’s former colleagues who still serve in the Illinois Capitol say that the attacks are off-base and that either Obama’s opponents don’t understand how things work in Springfield or they are deliberately distorting his record.

“To insinuate the ‘present’ vote means you’re indecisive, that you don’t have the courage to hold public office, that’s a stretch. But, it’s good politics,” said state Rep. Bill Black (R), a 22-year veteran of the House and his party’s floor leader.

. . .

The “present” vote in Illinois is sometimes cast by state lawmakers with a conflict of interest who would rather not weigh in on an issue. Other times, members use the option to object to certain parts of a bill, even though they may agree with its overall purpose.

“The ‘present’ vote is used, especially by more thoughtful legislators, not as a means of avoiding taking a position on an issue, but as a means of signaling concerns about an issue,” said state Rep. John Fritchey (D), an Obama supporter.

. . .

In Illinois, the “present” vote works as a vote against a measure during final action.

State Sen. John Cullerton (D) calls the “present” vote “a no vote with an explanation.” Legally, there’s not much difference between the two votes, but practically, it can let the sponsors or other legislators know of problems with the bill that should be corrected.

. . .

[R]emarks [made by Clinton and Edwards in a debate] angered Cullerton, who is also backing Obama. He stressed that voting “present” is different than not voting at all.

“There’s not one Republican, there’s not one member in the history of the General Assembly who is still alive today who would criticize voting ‘present.’ There’s not one member of the General Assembly who’s alive today who has ever not voted ‘present,’” he said.

Fritchey, the House Democrat who chairs a committee on civil law, said he often used the “present” vote when he thought a bill had constitutional or other legal problems.

. . .

Sometimes using “present” votes is part of a larger strategy.

For example, in what was supposed to be the last night of the legislative session in 2002, the leader of the Senate Democrats said he had been double-crossed on a budget agreement when a major new revenue source was left out. His caucus didn’t have enough votes to stop the whole revenue package, which included cigarette tax hikes, and the Democrats agreed to most of the bill anyway.

“I’m going to recommend to the members of this side of the aisle to vote ‘present’ until such a time as we see a total package that’s going to balance the budget for the year 2003,” state Sen. Emil Jones Jr. (D) told his caucus.

All told, 22 Democrats voted “present,” and the Republicans passed the measure. Obama was one of “present” votes, even though he earlier touted the cigarette tax hike at a press conference.

That help?

@Carol Stream

I suppose, but how do you explain his rating as the most Liberal Senator?

Hillary’s only 16th, fwiw.

Why would anyone care to explain why a Democrat is rated as liberal, let alone “most” liberal? I expect Democrats to be liberal. That’s a plus in my book. <shrug>

I’m less interested in Obama’s ‘Present’ votes than I am in Hillary’s uneducated and irresponsible Iraq vote, or her ‘Nay’ vote on the Amendment “To protect civilian lives from unexploded cluster munitions.” Obama voted ‘Yea’.

cite
cite

[Carol_Stream]

@Diogenes the Cynic

This rating scale for liberalism comes from a conservative magazine called the National Journal. It’s not like it’s some kind of objective or scientific analasis. It’s a right wing magazine using a contrived, phony scale to politic against the democratic candidates (coincdentally, they decided that John Kerry was the “most liberal” Democrat in '04).

Americans for Democratic Reform publishes a conservative magazine called the National Journal? Who knew?

Obama has a 95 percent liberal rating from Americans for Democratic Reform, a liberal advocacy group that ranks all members of Congress. Yet he is often portrayed as a centrist.

Examiner is back - Examiner.com

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

Who portrays him as an ideological centrist? He is portrayed as having appeal to crossover Republicans and to independents but he’s never painted as an ideological centrist. The crossover appeal is a function of his personality – not only his oratory ability and charisma but also because of his earnest appeals for unity and his ability to campaign without trashing conservatives. He is attractive to swing voters in spite of his supposed “liberalism,” not because anyone is representing him as a centrist akin to a Lieberman or Clinton (either Clinton).

So, yes, people know he’s a liberal and don’t care. Some of us actually like that. However left-leaning he is, he’s still not as lefty as me, so why should I care?

[Carol_Stream]

So you’re not going to address the falsity of your claim that Obama’s liberal rating was determined by a conservative magazine?

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Carol Stream

So you’re not going to address the falsity of your claim that Obama’s liberal rating was determined by a conservative magazine?

That wasn’t false. That “most liberal” bullshit comes from the National Journal.

[Larry_Borgia]

Wait, I thought John Kerry was the most liberal senator.

[Spiny_Norman]

@Larry Borgia

Wait, I thought John Kerry was the most liberal senator.

Nononono, that was when he was running for president, silly. It’s almost as if - and it really is the most uncanny coincidence - it’s almost as if Democratic frontrunners for for the presidency somehow end up with the rating “most liberal”.

It would have been interesting to see McCain’s ratings, but it appears he missed too many votes to even get a rating, which is really too bad. In plenty of ways.

[Carol_Stream]

@Diogenes the Cynic

That wasn’t false. That “most liberal” bullshit comes from the National Journal.

That so called “bullshit” also comes from the liberal advocacy group Americans for Democratic Reform. I’ve already provided a cite to that affect.

[Spiny_Norman]

@Carol Stream

That so called “bullshit” also comes from the liberal advocacy group Americans for Democratic Reform. I’ve already provided a cite to that affect.

Ehm - you provided a cite that The Examiner considers the group liberal.

[Carol_Stream]

@Spiny Norman

Ehm - you provided a cite that The Examiner considers the group liberal.

Do you have evidence that “Americans for Democratic Reform” is NOT a liberal advocacy group?

[ShadowFacts]

@Spiny Norman

Ehm - you provided a cite that The Examiner considers the group liberal.

Interestingly, I did a google search for Americans for Democratic Reform, and I couldn’t find it. What I found was a link to that Examiner piece, and tons of links to conservative blogs with people posting that 95% liberal quote and calling ADR a “a group that rates politicians on how liberal they are.”

Turns out what everyone is talking about is Americans for Democratic Action, which describes itself as a liberal lobbying group. Here’s what they say about their ratings:

@ADA

ADA Voting Records

Since ADA’s founding in 1947, the Annual Voting Records have served as the standard measure of political liberalism. Combining 20 key votes on a wide range of social and economic issues, both domestic and international, the Liberal (LQ) provides a basic overall picture of an elected official’s political position.

Each year, ADA’s Legislative Committee selects 20 votes it considers the most important during that session. ADA’s National Board and/or National Executive Committee approves those votes. Each member receives 5 points if he/she voted with ADA, and does not receive 5 points if he/she voted against us or was absent. The total possible is 100.

So, ADR doesn’t exist except in a mistaken article that has been/is being circulated among conservative blogs. ADA rates politicians on how closely they hew to ADA’s legislative agenda. (Given how Carol Stream was such a stickler for the whole “congress” thing, I’m sure she’ll want to get the group’s name right in the future).

[Carol_Stream]

As it stands, Diogenes’ claim about the provenance of Obama’s liberal rating is false. Even liberal advocacy groups rank him 95% liberal. Not good, at least as far as the general election is concerned.

[ShadowFacts]

@Carol Stream

Do you have evidence that “Americans for Democratic Reform” is NOT a liberal advocacy group?

I do, since they don’t exist. :smack: See my post above.

[Spiny_Norman]

@Carol Stream

Do you have evidence that “Americans for Democratic Reform” is NOT a liberal advocacy group?

I would’ve thought the burden of proof fell on whoever made the claim, but be that as it may, what with there being no such thing as “Americans for Democratic Reform”.

ShadowFacts kindly did the detective work involved in decoding your cite and found out what group your cite did in fact refer to. I’ll take a gander at their website before I pay heed to much of what they have to say. (20 votes?)

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Carol Stream

As it stands, Diogenes’ claim about the provenance of Obama’s liberal rating is false. Even liberal advocacy groups rank him 95% liberal. Not good, at least as far as the general election is concerned.

No, the “most liberal” rating (not whatever “95%” thing you’re talking about) is from the National Journal as I’ve already cited.

[Carol_Stream]

OK, Americans for Democratic Action then. Still not a conservative magazine rating Obama as a liberal, as claimed by Diogenes.

[Carol_Stream]

@Diogenes the Cynic

No, the “most liberal” rating (not whatever “95%” thing you’re talking about) is from the National Journal as I’ve already cited.

Now you’re going to parse 95% Liberal vs. Most Liberal? Please.