You think that asking for permission is the first time the dad has any inkling about what is going on? You think that there aren’t plenty of visits to both sets of parents and approval, if not the formalized approval of the tradition?
If the woman were being plucked from the bosom of the family to another safe and protected haven, I’d be worried, but the permission part is the least of the problems. Not much of that stuff these days, thank Og.
So are half of western wedding traditions. If not more.
I never said there was a required ceremony or tradition. You said the question was only for tradition and the answer was already known. I said that it is not only for tradition. Witnesses to any legal proceeding are supposed to be sure that what they are witnessing is what the person intends and that they are doing it willingly. They don’t have to know why you want to marry, but are supposed to be sure that you want to marry. They don’t have to know what is in your will but are supposed to be sure you intend it to be your will.
There should be some sort of acknowledgment by from the parties to the witnesses, conveying the information that “My signature here means I know I’m getting married. I’m not just signing a contract to rent a car.”
Not that it is relevant at all, but as far as I know, you still need witnesses in Pennsylvania even without an officiant. Am I incorrect?
On preview: Just because something isn’t the most horrific thing possible doesn’t make it not sexist.
Well, since ours was done pretty much as a joke, of course we would’ve. There was no permission involved at all, but if my mother took it seriously, more of a courtesy head’s up.
I would just hate it if people in my life (rather than people I share with my SO) knew about it before I did. It’s invasive, almost. But that’s not my chief issue.
Because it makes father’s opinion the important one. Because the only person deciding whether a woman has permission marry someone is the woman in question (man would decide who he has permission to marry). Because it has its roots in the fact that women were property to be transferred from father to husband, or at least in women not having the same freedom of choice/action as men did. Because it’s not an applied equally “gesture of respect” - no one says the bride’s mother or the groom’s parents should be asked. It’s uniquely a father-has-control-over-daughter’s-life thing and that is very, very offensive to me.
Exactly this. Just because it’s traditional doesn’t mean it’s harmless or that it doesn’t send a bad message, a message that daughters and sons are to be treated unequally in how independent they can be or how much approval is needed from their parents when it come to marital decision-making. Also treats mothers and fathers unequally in similar fashion.
I’ve signed lots of contracts that needed to be witnessed. Very few involved inviting friends from around the country and parties.Either side could reject the marriage when the license is signed - before witnesses. That’s a bit different from vow. Which of course have been changed a lot over the years - no more obeys outside of some religious marriages for instance.
So, when my prospective son-in-laws called to ask for my daughters’ hand, what should I have done? Said “welcome to the family you sexist pig?”
MY traditions have never called for asking the father’s permission, yours used to, but they have changed. My father was an extremely traditional man, and if any man had asked him for my hand, or my brothers had asked their future fathers-in-law for the brides-to-be’s, he would have had an apoplexy.
I realize that not everyone follows it, but mostly men ask. Therefore women couldn’t ask for permission until after the proposal. However in most cases there is a checking in with the guy’s parents before the proposal, so the cases aren’t that different really.
Anyhow the custom must have skipped generations (maybe several) because I know of none of my friends who asked. My parents got married in secret so they sure didn’t. A father requiring permission would be stupid and obnoxious, but kids asking I thought was cute.
My husband did not ask my father, because we were married in 1994 and my father didn’t come back into my life until 2011. (Not his fault, long story, teenage parents, blah blah blah.)
I think it was when my father and his wife were over for Christmas year before last, and I was sharing some old photos, when my father said, “Um, I wanted to ask…who walked you down the aisle at your wedding?”
I laughed and said, “Well, it wasn’t that kind of a wedding, we were married in a beautiful botanic garden, not a church, and (husband) and I walked down the path together.”
Even if he had been part of my life at the time, my husband wouldn’t have asked his permission to marry me, and he wouldn’t have walked me down the aisle or given me away- it just wasn’t that kind of a wedding.
As someone who remarked earlier in the thread that I would not want to marry someone who would ask my father’s permission to marry me, I have no idea why you object to letting me be the one to decide who is suitable for me.
I sincerely doubt I could marry someone who was an extremely devout religious practitioner, a hard-core conservative Republican, or who wanted to have as many children as possible. I think it is important to share certain fundamental values with your spouse, and in each of those cases, we would not. It’s not your business to condone or object.
On a different matter - What is it about the topic of this thread that is turning everyone illiterate? It’s “going past,” not “going passed.” It seems like an unusually high number of posts in this thread contain typos of the sort that occur when someone is typing hurriedly and not checking their writing. (And I fully expect Gaudere’s Law to manifest itself now.)
I was waiting outside a shop with my girlfriend’s dad talking about our upcoming holiday, and I said, “Oh, I’m also going to propose, if that’s alright.”
Apparently he liked the gesture even though he didn’t think it necessary.
How did you live with your sexist, woman-hating self after this exchange? And he LIKED it? Hope you are going to enjoy your new sexist, woman-hating in-law! :rolleyes:
See, this is an example of why “judgment” should not be exercised equally for completely different situations.
A key part of “judgment” is examining the actual “harm” a particular opinion is capable of creating.
“… as a black person saying that black people are inferior and should not be in positions of authority …” = lots of potential harm (particularly if you are Black yourself!).
‘Providing a traditional gesture of respect towards one’s spouses’ parents’ = no potential harm.
I say this, even though I myself not only did not ask my in-laws’ permission, I had no idea asking such permission was still a thing people did.