Does anyone know how to get chlorine bleach out of the eyes?? :eek: :eek: :eek:
I have no doubt that I would enjoy well-made porn, as it is, I don’t watch porn because it’s boring, but the problem is that even if it weren’t I wouldn’t be a regular purchaser of it.
Several problems here. As noted by many others, the majority of porn purchasers go for no-plot stories. However, adding realistic plots requires a substantial amount of cost to the film and begs the question if you could get actors, actresses, directors and production people who could create realism.
First, look at the cost. I’ve read something somewhere that the average skin flick is shot in a single day. Even if that’s not true, it’s obvious that it’s created substantially quicker than normal films. IIRC, the amount of film shot vs. what’s used is over 100 to 1 for commercial film, although I don’t recall ever reading how much is shot for dramatic TV. In addition to taking more shots, suddenly, you are going to have to worry about lighting, sets, locations, sound, and everything else which goes into creating the right mood. It’s not just simply adding twenty minutes to a flick, everything is going to be more expensive.
Then you have to look at the people involved. You would have to get actors and actresses (and I’m not going to indulge you on your personal tastes, if the director wants to create a story with men in it, it’s up to him and his backers) who could not only act, but would be willing to appear in hard-core porn. Part of what drives the market is the abundance of second rate actors/actresses who don’t have the same performance skills, but are willing to take clothes off and have graphic sex before the camera. There doesn’t seem to be much cross-over between porn and non-porn performers. I’m guessing that if you could find first rate performers, willing to go hard core, then you’ll have to pay at least first rate fees, if not more. The average Japanese porn actors make only about $500 to $1,000 for most movies, although the actresses make more, still many are in the $5,000 to $10,000 range. This is substantially below the amount they would make for mainstream movies.
Likewise for directors. The current set specializes in non-realistic action, so there’s the problem of getting ones who know how to do this, which would mean that they could work in more mainstream movies. I know a guy who used to edit porn movies, and it was pretty much an assembly line. Realistic drama requires good editing, which is going to cost more money and time.
The bottom line is that the bottom line is going to be substantially more, even if you were able to get the necessary talent. While I admire your desire a better mousetrap, there’s got to be a substantially large market which is willing to pay more money than traditional porn. Unfortunately, there is no indication that this market exists, which makes this an exercise in mental masturbation.
I think my assuming that 30~40% of people would enjoy my type of film is just as delusional as you guys assuming that there can’t be a market for my type of film, simply because one isn’t already established. As if the porn industry itself is constant, and will remain so.
I see the trends. People are changing a lot. More than you would ever imagine. And yes I see men my age (mid to late twenties) as much, much more open minded than the previous generation. And I’m sure the following generation will be even more open.
Also, these are not baseless claims. I don’t know if you live in the USA, but insecurity and homophobia still run rampant. You think I imagined the time that my sunday school teacher went off on some angry rant about “If I ever see fags like that again, they’re going to get tied up to the back of my truck”. Do you really think I imagined being raised in a family where phrases like “masturbation is sin” and “all fags are going to burn in hell”? I was raised in an area where the words fag, homo, queer were used more than 50 times a day. Am I from the deep south, or from some other stereotypical backward area? No, this was all Orange County, California.
And yes it’s horrible to see people like Eminem influence so much of the youth, but at the very least he’s so over the top homophobic that I’m sure most people enjoy mocking him. I think Adam Corolla and Howard Stern are the worst offenders because they simply hide their insecurity and homophobia behind clever jokes. And that’s how you really influence youth because now they have something to relate to. “Haha, it’s funny because it’s true!”
But as young men become more and more open to their sexuality, ideas like intimacy and many other emotions will find their way into porn. I’d say men my age about 30% of them are homophobic. And teenagers of today maybe 20%. So next generation could be 10~15%. While I’m pulling these numbers out of my ass, you know exactly what I’m talking about. I giant shift is coming. And no I don’t believe you can be homophobic without being sexually insecure.
Who’s saying such a market can’t exist? As I understand it, the claim is only that it doesn’t exist, or at least has never made any effort to publicize itself. I suppose in a generation or two there might be some kind of major shift in the male psyche, rather like the historical advent of courtly love or the rise of the more modern “metrosexual”, but I won’t hold my breath.
Sure, to things like gay marriage and whatnot, with increased tolerance for lots of stuff past generations would’ve seen as unthinkable, but a major shift in what straight men find sexy? An interest in nonsexual female intimacy would be a far more radical change than, say, the female ideal morphing from Rubenesque to near-anorexic.
I suggest you start another thread on this subject in about five years (assuming you’re a member here). If the shift is coming, by then there should be a few websites providing the films you describe, marketed to straight men.
And incidentally, the linkage of any of this to homophobia remains unestablished. As I said before, lack of interest in something doesn’t demonstrate fear of it.
I never said this. I’m saying the shift is already upon us. The problem is, unfortunately, a lot of younger men aren’t paying for porn. We’re the first of the internet generation, where porn is free and abundant. I think once this generation moves beyond the free stuff, and starts to look for something more, they will begin to vote with their wallets.
Another big problem with marketing “good” porn, is that a lot of the time it’s simply not needed. I remember my freshman year living in the dorm with another guy. Sometimes when he’d leave to go to class, I’d go to my computer and have a wank. I would always have the volume muted, and continuously listen outside for footsteps. It was this excitement, the fear of getting caught, that allowed me to jerk it to some of the most boring, god awful porn ever created. This idea applies to tons of men who hide porn from their wives/girlfriends or (if you live at home) your parents.
So, what happens when men get privacy, and they become comfortable watching porn whenever they feel like it? There’s no longer that extra excitement. For me seeing a close-up of a penis enter a vagina is pretty much the same as watching a guy sticking his right index finger into the hole he created with his left hand over and over. Why? Because it’s purely a visual presentation of what sex is. There’s no real connection. Sex, and the sensation you get from it, is not visual. That’s why I think there needs to be new, more interesting or subtle ways to create arousing scenes that don’t necessarily involve fucking, muff diving, etc. And no I’m not saying remove sex scenes. They can work, and be extremely hot as well, if done right.
I’m sure I speak for plenty of other men when I say that often “less is more”. I don’t find female nudity, in and of itself, all that great. The problem is I’ve always been like this. It has nothing to do with over-saturation of nudity. Even when I was 13 and first started masturbating, I would look at some porno with a naked chick and get limp dick. Is nudity gross for me? No, but I find that the ability to hide, and present the female body in a new way makes it much, much more interesting.
For instance, I don’t think there’s a single way to make a woman’s ass look as great as when she’s wearing a pair of tight, solid colored boy shorts. The way it contours to the curves of her ass is fucking amazing. A thong, on the other hand, just seems so pointless. Why not just have dental floss protruding out her butt crack then up and around her waist?
Another example is when a girl with a pair of nice, natural C-Cups is wearing a tight, thin layered cotton T-Shirt with no bra. The way the fabric curves around the apple shaped breasts, and into her flat, perfect stomach is incredible. I even love the way the shirt can highlight the belly button and the definition between the stomach and ribs. And the nipples, my god the nipples!!! Jesus, I just wanna bite those things off!
Obviously, nudity can be great as well. But you need to let us envision what it would look like. You need to give us time to desire your body. There has to be longing and anticipation. This idea, unfortunately, is never translated to porn. It’s hilarious the outfits these girls wear. If you’re going to wear a skirt that’s so slutty, so short that I can already see your vagina, then why the fuck are you even wearing it!!?? How the hell is that outfit “sexy”?
The OP should check out a film now showing on the Showtime digital cable channels called “Lie With Me.” Here’s the IMDB link;
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0418832/usercomments
It’s full of sex: blowjobs, masturbations, striaght sex and lying around naked a lot. But it’s also full of character development. It’s a lot closer to what he’s after than anything else I know of. It’s a softcore film, but the thing is there’s a lot more sex than your average softcore film, and it’s not the usual rote stuff you see in softcore … a lot better done and more passionate.
This actually seems like it might be good based on the user comments. I’m not sure if I would get aroused by the guy/girl sex scenes, but then again, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a realistic portrayal in porn. It’s usually inane fluff you see in softcore, or nasty over the top hardcore.
Anyway, I want to go back to why I don’t like seeing men in porn. It’s not so much that men are ugly, because a lot of them aren’t. It’s that when the porn becomes realistic, when the actor becomes a real person, you begin to relate to him. You begin to empathize with him. Then, as his personality becomes more and more fleshed out, you now see him as a completely unique individual.
The problem here is that as the actor becomes a real person with his own identity, you can no longer think of him as this faceless, mindless fucking machine. Instead of seeing the world through his eyes, and feeling what he’s feeling, you’re now stuck on the outside looking in. So now what happens during the sex scenes? Well, when the camera pans to his face, and you see the intense look in his eyes with his mouth slightly open, it’s almost as if you are the one giving him sexual pleasure.
I guess the best example I can give is think of one of your favorite TV or Movie actors. Let’s just use Jim from The Office as an example. I like the actor and his character on the show. But would I ever want to see him in a real sex scene? Hell no, that would make me feel very weird or violated. However, would I kill to see a lesbian scene between Karen and Pam? Yes, the answer is yes. This is why I think my film idea would only really work with two girls.
Call me crazy, but I need nothing but my thoughts when I stroke it. Of course I did buy a fleshlight also…
Y’know, Senior, your neoPorn would have a whole lot more chances of success if it appeals to a broader sector of the potential marketplace. And that means you’ll have to throw in hefty amounts of heterosexual sex. You don’t have to watch those, but you’d have to produce them. If you demand too focused a narrowcast you’ll have trouble getting the neoPorn production financed, when it could potentially attract me and others and have greater demand.
But going back to the prior paragraph, that now seems to say that you fear that * too good * a characterization will result in people overidentifying with the characters and no longer being able to just enjoy objectifying them. Well, I’m sorry, but that seems to me it’s a risk one should be willing to take if one wishes to propagate neoPorn. (And do you really mean you don’t mind Karen and Pam being cast in the role of mindless fuck machines, but Jim would rattle you?)
BTW, you may be on to something here: the overly “plastic” current crop of pornstars (oh, for the days of a young Ginger Lynn…) may come about precisely because they ARE so damn easy to objectify – both male and female! “That’s not me or any of my buds, that’s some tattooed parolee with shaved nuts”… “That’s not the girl next door, that’s a pair of volleyballs grafted onto a multiply-pierced mannequin!” With the near-disappearance of “plotted” porn from the major commercial labels, there is lower demand for someone who looks like s/he could conceivably be someone you are meeting in the course of their everyday life as accountant, professor, business executive, harried housewife, salesclerk, freshman, computer geek, camp counselor, etc. And that’s too bad because it* then * makes the few remaining attempts at “plotted” porn look even MORE preposterous yet.
No, I’m saying I’d be able to watch Karen/Pam in an intimate, tasteful sex scene with each other. But I would never want to watch them being treated like filthy sluts. Actually I thought one of the main points I made already is that I’m sick of seeing all women treated like “fuck holes” in porn.
Honestly I’ve never been able to think of women as purely sex objects. I hate strip clubs and places like Hooters. It all seems so forced and pretentious. But I guess for having a brain that makes me a decent human being, I should be subjected to shitty porn for the rest of my life.
Wow. You know, that’s pretty offensive. You just pretty much implied that because you’re smarter than everybody else that makes you better than them (more decent) and that places like strip clubs and Hooters are where the lowly, not-as-smart, not-as-decent people go.
Well bully for you for being so fucking superior.
I’ve worked in strip clubs and I have met a lot of really smart, really decent men in them. You can kiss my ass with your holier-than-thou attitude.
Wouldn’t work. He only likes it if a woman does it, and if you and she first spend 20 minutes shopping at IKEA for drapes.
Sorry about this. I realize it came off that way, which wasn’t my intention.
You saw, “I guess for having a brain” when I meant, “I guess for having a (personality) that…”
Anyway, I used strip clubs as an example because it seems like the main appeal is treat the women like a pair of tits & ass. Obviously not all men in strip clubs are like this. However, there are men (and women) who spend their entire lives treating other people like sex toys, and I don’t consider them decent human beings.
I saw a lot more people treating other people like objects when I worked as a waitress at Pizza Hut and when I worked behind the counter at McDonald’s than when I danced at a strip club.
I’m actually much more inclined to treat a fast food cashier like an object than I would a stripper. If the former was replaced by a machine that took my order and money and delivered food and change, I would think nothing of it, but if I went to a strip club and saw machines sliding up and down the poles, I’d be rather disappointed.
Well, sure. For one thing, the light’s a lot better.
As knowledgeable and widely-experienced and tolerant and sympathetic and broad-minded and understanding as, everyone knows, I am, I’m honestly not sure what to make of the OP. Apparently he wishes to have his nobly enlightened, not to say utopian, views of women and sex recognized as more humane, emotionally healthy, socially justifiable and aesthetically pleasing than the filthy, oppressive, piggish, unevolved dreck propagated by modern pornographers. I get that part – hell, they may well be so. But I stumble a little at – have I got this part right? – the OP’s assertion that the reward for his progressive ideas concerning women and sex should be … more better porn? It’s not inherently contradictory, I suppose, but it sure has the flavor of “Lower Your Cholesterol and Win a Ham!” about it.
Anyhow, in the realm of the unreal everybody’s entitled to their own preferences (less so, though, when lazily borrowing someone else’s fantasy as a substitute for their own because the someone else took the trouble to film it). But I’m not enthusiastic about the OP’s prospects. He wants the portrayal of “intimacy” (by which I think he means a believeable portrayal of character and relationship development along with time devoted to the depiction of physical but nonsexual affection) from a source that, in his view, doesn’t even get the breasts right – and the industry cares about those! He also says too much realism spoils things for him. But whereas pornography is frequently fantastic, even ludicrous, in its depiction of sex (without notable uproar from its fans), it’s hard to see how this nonrealistic approach could achieve what the OP wants: ridiculous sex, it seems, still sells, but will ridiculously-portrayed intimacy satisfy the OP? Sex is easier than intimacy, both in real life and on screen. The seduction of pornography is that it simplifies both, the former a little and the latter a lot – to the point of vanishing.
Of some minor relevance is an SNL sketch titled “Lez it Up” from the March 11th, 2000 episode. I can’t find a transcript or video clip and I only saw it once, but the gist of it was (as I recall) a bunch of fratboys invited to watch a live lesbian show. They’re quickly disappointed when the lesbian couple are fiftyish, loving, intimate and (from the boys’ perspective) incredibly boring.
Obviously watching a real lesbian couple in bed could be boring. I’m sure it depends on how hot they are, and how much they get into it. If they’re both just hurrying to cum and pass out, then yeah.
As far as overly dramatic portrayal of affection. Well, it could be filmed in a way that is believable. Yeah some of the things the girls do will be a bit over the top, but because the film is so realistic, you won’t be thinking it.
Also, there are plenty of unexpected things that go on in the bedroom. Like when you both reach in for a kiss and bonk heads. Or she says something strange, and you nearly bust up laughing. I know these aren’t the greatest of examples and no I’m not saying the film should be a comedy. I’m just saying there are millions of things, if filmed in a natural way, that could be sexy and even add on to the already realistic foundation of the film.
Lets say for the example that the film is showing a new couple have sex for the first time. Obviously if it’s too “real” it may come off as clumsy and awkward. But because this is a film, you simply get to pick and choose which of the weird, quirky things to display. Keep the things that are cute and endearing. But remove the things that would make the audience uncomfortable.
I honestly think my main problem is that I’ve always had an extremely low threshold for bullshit.
Let’s take reality TV for example. I loathe these shows. I mean, I actually get physically ill from anger when I watch any of this garbage for even a few moments.
I honestly can’t think of a less realistic portrayal of real human interactions than what you see on these shows. The problem is these people know they’re being filmed, and it is impossible to capture them in a natural setting. What drives me so fucking insane, is the fact that they try to sell it to the audience like it’s really happening. They want us to believe this is a voyeuristic look into the lives of these people. They want us to believe this is “real” drama. And that is something I will never be able to stomach.
I know I said that when a person becomes too real, that you’re stuck on the outside looking in, but I’ve thought about it and that’s not true.
For instance imagine Jim getting his heart broken on The Office. I feel extremely bad for Jim as a person. But I also feel what he feels, because I’ve been there. It’s this combination that creates such high emotion.
So now, let’s imagine a lesbian sex scene.
When you see a girl’s face in a close up, and she’s being pleasured by this other girl, you’re thinking two things.
First you’re on the outside looking in. You see her make those faces like she’s enjoying it, and it feels like you’re the one giving her that pleasure. And that’s a huge turn on by itself. In fact, when I’m having sex, that’s probably the biggest turn on for me.
But you can also get into her mind. When you see her look down at the other girl, you see what she sees. Her infatuation becomes your infatuation. Her enjoyment becomes your enjoyment. And no I don’t mean, “I imagine myself as a woman, getting my pussy eaten”. I mean that because she has a human facial expressions that I can relate to, I can see the world through her eyes. I can imagine being there getting oral pleasure from this other girl.
And now, since there are two girls, it becomes extremely complex. Your mind begins to play the role of both girls. And it’s this intrinsic web of anticipation, lust and sexual pleasure, all being played out in your mind.
And because there are no men in this scenario, there are no hang ups, no confusion. There’s no competition or jealousy like “who is this asshole having sex with my woman?”