Straight Men, Intimacy and Porn

The BBQ Pit
101

[QUOTE=Frank]
Oh, dear. As mentioned above, porn is 100% market driven. Porn will be made when the actors, producers, and distributors will all make money off it. If your niche was actually occupied by 30~40% of all the people who spend money on porn, your niche would be occupied by the makers as well. I promise.

Your desire is a niche product. Sorry. It’s still out there (again, as mentioned above) you’re just going to have to look for it with a little more effort than those who are into big boobs or big dicks.
[/QUOTE]

Well, what I meant to say is that if my film was actually created, and then given away for free to every guy in the world, at least 30~40% of them would love it and see it as a breath of fresh air. The problem right now is how can someone demand something that doesn’t exist or hasn’t even been thought of yet?

Also I do think that there is a giant shift coming as far as the porn star look goes. If you look at porn in the late 60s and into the 70s, you’ll see that a lot of the women either had a very natural look or an almost Audrey Hepburn, movie star look. Now I’m not so retarded to say that any of these actresses were as hot as Audrey, but they at least tried to mimic her look, appeal and style. Which was nice.

Why did it change? How did we get to the fake boobed, plastic whore look? Well, it was the natural, or rather unnatural, progression of trying to make the new models more and more interesting. At first it was just fake boobs. Then it was full body tans. Then it was plastic surgery to remove any “defects” from the faces. Then remove all body fat, stretch marks, moles, whatever. Then of course the outfits kept getting skimpier and sluttier. And the makeup got worse and worse, until you couldn’t tell one actress from another. What we’re left with today is the byproduct of desperate porn directors continuously trying to “one up” the competition.

You look at mainstream porn actresses today and they barely pass as human beings. They don’t look natural or anything like the movie stars of today. Seriously go to any message board with a young audience (18~30) and ask them who they think is the hottest girl alive. You’re going to see the likes of Scarlett Johansson, Kiera Knightly, Natalie Portman, Jessica Alba, and Anna Kournikova. I promise you, you won’t see one single porn star on this list. Why are younger men so attracted to these girls? Because they’re very pretty and they don’t look and dress like whores.

Also, I honestly think that giant fake boobs are a thing of the past. Again, go to this same message board and ask them, “Do you prefer big fake boobs, or small/medium natural boobs?” I’d say 90% of young men will say natural no matter what. Or “more than a mouthful is a waste”. And honestly I’ve been around enough guys my age to know that this is completely true. Most young men are completely turned off by fake boobs.

102

[QUOTE=Senior Smith]
Also I do think that there is a giant shift coming as far as the porn star look goes. If you look at porn in the late 60s and into the 70s, you’ll see that a lot of the women either had a very natural look or an almost Audrey Hepburn, movie star look. Now I’m not so retarded to say that any of these actresses were as hot as Audrey, but they at least tried to mimic her look, appeal and style. Which was nice.
[/QUOTE]

I’m not necessarily arguing with this. I, personally, am more turned on by a natural look. BUT - most of the people who spend money on porn are guys, and (apparently) most of them enjoy huge tits and explicit penetration. If the product didn’t sell, it wouldn’t be made.

Boy, I couldn’t agree with you more here. But, nevertheless, it appears that the guys willing to spend money want to see “giant fake boobs”. You, and I, are going to have a harder time finding what we want, as it is less commercially succesfull. Such is life.

See if you can’t find The Opening of Misty Beethoven. Both my ex and I liked that one a lot. It is, I must mention, hardcore, though it has a plot.

103

[QUOTE=Senior Smith]
No, only you are saying I think I’m special or unique, and it’s getting really fucking annoying, because I seem to be saying the exact opposite.
[/quote]

Really.

I figure the last one was just facetious, though.

Well, in all seriousness, I can only advise you to wait. There are more and more porn websites popping up all the time, catering to any number of possible preferences. Eventually one will tumble onto the formula you describe (or you might accelerate the process by writing some e-mails to the people who run sites you think are closer than average) and if the market is that huge, it’ll be an instant success to be rapidly copied by others.

You have far too many assumptions in this paragraph. Is it shame, or could it be that the people in this forum are simply satisfied with existing forms of porn, or at least more so than they would be if presented your suggestion as an option?

And I suggest you look up the threads started by a guy name “Evil Captor”. He got in trouble for injecting his “inner degenerate desires” in threads where it wasn’t appropriate, but was tolerated as long as he applied reasonable discretion.

I also counter-suggest that half the people reading this thread aren’t posting here because that’s typical of pretty much every thread around here. Looking down the list of threads in any forums shows “views” typically 10-50 times the number of “replies”.

I don’t what a “huge face list” is, but if your complaint is that you’re not getting the reception you were expecting, I suggest you reconsider your approach. Had you started with this:

…leaving out irrelevant bits about stomach-kissing and “sheep” and such. I’ll do my part and pretend you never wrote any of that and try to think up other suggestions of films or TV shows where a lesbian element was within an interesting, entertaining context, demonstrating that the idea of it is neither shocking nor unique.

104

[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
Had you started with this: “I was looking at some lesbian porn the other day and realized that it was getting dull. Are there any examples of movies where the lesbian sex is within a larger romantic context with a slow build toward the climax, showing the women forming an emotional intimate bond?”
[/QUOTE]

If I stated it like this then I would be lying. Because I already know there isn’t anything out there. I’ve been doing quite a bit of research and have posted “help me find this kind of lesbian porn” on two other porn discussion forums. I didn’t come here looking for suggestions, I was looking for new opinions.

I described my OP in the way that I did, with the detail I did, because I thought it was necessary to get my point across. And honestly I’ve always had a difficult time translating thoughts in my brain into words. Even today I often find myself thinking something that makes perfect sense, then I’ll say it out loud and get blank stares from my friends. However I don’t think that means I shouldn’t be able to express my opinions, especially when it’s something I consider to be important.

105

[QUOTE=Senior Smith]
If men love intimacy, why is there no intimacy in porn?
[/QUOTE]

Because that is not the artistic purpose of porn. Try a romance novel. (Most of which seem to be definitely aimed at a female audience.)

106

I can be turned on by a sexy romance in a movie, but when I watch porn, that’s not what I am looking for. Heck I usually fastforward past what minimal setup porn has in it now! The scenes you’ve described in this thread would bore me to tears and have me frustratedly trying to fast forward without getting lube all over the remote (probably while wondering why I’d bothered getting the lube out at all yet since the movie was so boring so far.)

By the way, I’m a woman if that matters.

107

[QUOTE=Senior Smith]
If I stated it like this then I would be lying. Because I already know there isn’t anything out there. I’ve been doing quite a bit of research and have posted “help me find this kind of lesbian porn” on two other porn discussion forums. I didn’t come here looking for suggestions, I was looking for new opinions.
[/quote]

In my respectful opinion, you either haven’t looked hard enough or are being too fussy. Have you checked any of the suggestions thus far in this thread? Heck, you could probably go to some gay-run sites and find lists of movies the web authors think are sufficiently realistic portrayals of a romantic lesbian couple and use that as a starting point.

It’s a skill that develops with practice. If I may, your biggest stumble in this particular case is the large number of unfounded generalizations in your premise. Do you really believe the porn you describe would be that popular with straight men? Do you really believe their rejection of such porn is from shame or peer pressure? What’s you basis for believing either of those?

I know I wrote earlier I’d pretend you hadn’t written any of that, but I feel I may as well answer the unspoken question about the response you’ve been getting.

No-one’s stopping you, but if you’re unprepared for negative feedback, I suggest you express your opinions on a blog.

108

[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
In my respectful opinion, you either haven’t looked hard enough or are being too fussy.
[/QUOTE]

Both these sites are NWS

LezloveVideo dot com
Clublez dot com

The first gives extensive reviews of just about every single lesbian porn or erotica. This includes user comments, screenshots, and video clips.

The second site is a database of every movie and TV show with lesbian content. It gives screenshots, and tells you how much lesbian content there is.

Yes, I’ve looked hard enough. If someone told you that you could only listen to Top 40 for the rest of your life, and then you complained, should I call you fussy?

[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
your biggest stumble in this particular case is the large number of unfounded generalizations in your premise
[/QUOTE]

We will never, ever have solid statistics on the inner most private thoughts of human beings. So my only alternative is to believe certain things based on personal experience. I apologize if my opinions are coming off as fact.

[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
Do you really believe the porn you describe would be that popular with straight men?
[/QUOTE]

Well, I think it would be hot, and at least a few others have agreed with me. I don’t know how popular it would be, but I do know there is some demand for it. Also it’s a new concept, so it’s not guaranteed to catch on immediately. I think that may be the biggest fear of porn directors who have had similar ideas.

[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
Do you really believe their rejection of such porn is from shame or peer pressure?
[/QUOTE]

I think a lot of initial rejection of my proposed film would have to do with the false perception that intimacy is feminine. Some men just aren’t comfortable thinking of themselves as “girly”, especially in sexual situations. Take anal stimulation as a prime example. A lot of straight guys like a finger up there every once in a while, but virtually 0% of men would openly admit it…

[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
if you’re unprepared for negative feedback, I suggest you express your opinions on a blog.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t mind negative feedback. I just don’t appreciate the mean spirited, snide comments that have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

109

[QUOTE=Senior Smith]
Both these sites are NWS

LezloveVideo dot com
Clublez dot com

The first gives extensive reviews of just about every single lesbian porn or erotica. This includes user comments, screenshots, and video clips.

The second site is a database of every movie and TV show with lesbian content. It gives screenshots, and tells you how much lesbian content there is.

Yes, I’ve looked hard enough. If someone told you that you could only listen to Top 40 for the rest of your life, and then you complained, should I call you fussy?
[/quote]

If my position was that good music didn’t exist because no good music (in my opinion) was in the Top 40, then… sure. If I was further insisting that good music could exist if only the stupid plebeian sheep would stop bowing to peer pressure and admit to themselves that what they really wanted was good music and if only they heard good music they (or at least a sizable portion of them) would instantly appreciate its charms… well, you could call me other things.

As a suggestion, try writing to the people who run these sites, since you view them as Sappho’s scribes, and ask these venerable experts about the marketability of the porn you describe. I’ll wager their estimate of the potential customer base is somewhat lower than 30-40%.

Well, actually, we have the perfectly useful alternative of tracking market trends and internet traffic, so regardless of what may be in a human’s heart, we can form a pretty good idea of what’s in a human’s shopping list. Considering the vast number of porn providers, each seeking to build a customer base, I theorize that if a sufficiently large market existed for 30-minute films in which the first 20 minutes were lesbian intimacy-building, someone would have found and tapped this market already, or at worst, in the very near future. As has been pointed out, there already exist mainstream feature films about lesbian characters in which the sex scenes are a relatively minor part.

Well, good, you admit you don’t know. I trust the difference between admitting that and claiming “around 30~40%” is apparent. As for porn directors, I’m sure there are plenty who aren’t afraid to try just about anything, but consider what you’re asking - a short film that bridges the gap between plausible character development and, well, porn. I speculate it’s far more likely that R-rated films will gradually become more explicit rather than X-rated films gradually becoming more concerned with plot.

I’m pretty sure if there was a great untapped desire for intimate lesbian porn, simple shyness wouldn’t keep it from being available. Porn of guys receiving anal stimulation is certainly available (that is to say, I can’t imagine it’s not) and given the comfortably private manner in which such material can be ordered through the net from one’s own home, anybody who wants it can certainly acquire it without having to discuss it over dinner with friends or family.

I gather you’re continuing to insist that if your interests are not reflected in the mainstream, it’s somehow a conspiracy that prevents it.

You are quite definitely in the wrong forum on the wrong board, then. Had you started this in the Cafe Society forum, using the opening I suggested earlier (in which you avoid making generalizations or advancing personal theories), you’d be protected by that forum’s rules from anything blatantly insulting. Even then, I admit, the temptation for some people to get off a joke at your expense (without being really blatant about it) would be irresistible because the nature of this entire message board is that it attracts and is full of smart-alecks.

I suggest you ask this be closed (the request won’t automatically be granted, but no matter) and start a Cafe thread asking for serious opinions on the viability of short-film porn that highlights character development and slow emotional foreplay before going to the intercourse. You might have to refrain from explicit language (at least, if you want the discussion to remain serious), but we’re smart and we’d get the point. Please don’t use immature slang terms like “hoo hoo”, either. That just undercuts the seriousness of your question.

Further, if you don’t get the answer you want (I predict you’d get the same “this type of film isn’t available because the number of people potentially interested in it wouldn’t justify the expense in making it”, but I’m always prepared to be surprised), I suggest you refrain from assuming this is due to some kind of flaw in the male psyche where lack of interest in something proves fear of it.

I’ve done a lot of speculating in this thread, I realize, but none of it involves suggesting people aren’t being honest with themselves.

110

I think the solution is to have more mainstream movies that integrate explicit sex scenes. A regular movie with characters and a story can build up “intimacy,” “tenderness,” what have you, very well. Most movies rely on this, as part of being enjoyable or worthwhile.

Unfortunately, there’s still a huge mental divide in our society between porn and “regular film” that is unlikely to be broken down any time soon. We want pornography to be compartmentalized away from everything else. “Over there, in the adult bookstore on the hill in the next town over, there’s your porn.” Pretend that porn is part of a separate community of “perverts and child molesters,” pretend it hasn’t infiltrated nearly every single household already. We’re so unwilling to acknowledge that there’s a continuum–it might make it impossible to keep pretending that regular, moral, responsible adults don’t like porn.

But there could be something between “emotionless, hardcore sex with fake boobs and bad acting” and “great movie with amazing acting that cuts away from the scene when the sex starts.” And I’d watch it. Think about the last great movie you saw that had some sort of romantic element. Did it have a love scene? Was it hot? Could it have been longer? Sexier? That could lead to some great, really exciting possibilities. Will it happen in my lifetime? I can only hope.

111

[QUOTE=Millit the Frail]
mainstream movies that integrate explicit sex scenes.
[/QUOTE]

This is nothing like what I want though. My film wouldn’t have plot lines, story or drama. In fact, it could be in Portuguese with no subtitles, and it would still have the same impact I was going for. The only reason I keep saying “movie format” is because that would be the only way to create a realistic setting and believable characters.

By now I think “20 minutes” has become a magic number. Honestly what I’m going for could be done in a few or even a couple of minutes if done right. However I just happen to think the sexual tension, lust, and anticipation between two girls extremely hot in itself. I think build up, setting and realism could be done in a short amount of time. But it is necessary to make the following sex scene even that much more intense.

[QUOTE=Millit the Frail]
We want pornography to be compartmentalized away from everything else.
[/QUOTE]

I fully agree with this. And it is the source of a lot of my anger and frustration. I think porn could be filmed in a way that is so artistic, natural and wholesome that everyone involved could be proud of it. All the while being much, much hotter than typical hardcore porn. But for this to ever happen, someone needs to take the first step.

As far as getting girls who can act. Well, many years ago I’m sure actresses were considered “whores” for showing nudity in film. The thing is nudity is almost always blatant in film. There could almost always be a way to film around it, without disturbing the flow of the film. It’s there because “sex sells”. I think if my film were wholesome enough, then perhaps the actresses involved wouldn’t even consider themselves “porn stars”.

112

[QUOTE=Frank]

See if you can’t find The Opening of Misty Beethoven. Both my ex and I liked that one a lot. It is, I must mention, hardcore, though it has a plot.
[/QUOTE]

And you might wonder why **Frank ** has to recommend a 30 year old movie. There was a FAQ in a porn film newsgroup, written by a producer. One of the questions was about writing scripts. Porn film makers discovered that films with just sex, and no plots, sold as well as better than films with plots. Thus, it was financial suicide to make films with higher quality than absolutely necessary to sell.

113

[QUOTE=Voyager]
And you might wonder why **Frank ** has to recommend a 30 year old movie.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I do still enjoy some 70s porn, but it’s getting a bit “dated”. Even still they didn’t quite do it right. Again it’s not the plot or story that matters, it’s the sense of realism created.

With realism you can present fantasy in a whole new way. I want to go back to my original idea for the film. This is probably way TMI, so read at your own risk.

Lets say the girls went back to GirlA’s house. They eventually had sex, and then fell asleep. Now, GirlB wakes up around midnight to get up and pee. Afterwards she walks down the stairs to the kitchen to get a glass of water. She sees the light on already and is greeted by GirlA’s mother. This is the first time they’ve met, so it’s slightly awkward. Anyway the girl is just in her underwear, and a tight cotton T-shirt. The mom is just in her robe. Both these women are extremely hot. Anyway they start talking, get to know each other a little bit. Then the girl very subtly gets closer to the mother until you’re dying by the sexual tension. The mom continues to talk as if nothing is happening. Then the girl slowly slides her hand into her robe and gently caresses her vagina…

I apologize for being so graphic. But I needed to get a point across.

If this were just some mindless skin flick, what would your brain be telling you?
“Oh god, this is so retarded. That wouldn’t happen in a million years…”

However, now with all the buildup & realism, your brain is instead thinking:
“Holy fucking shit this is hot! I can’t believe this is actually happening!!!”
Do you see what I’m getting at?

114

Also I want to give the Matrix as an example. Think of the opening sequence with Trinity and the cops. I’m talking about the scene where she jumps up in the air, time stops, and the camera pans around her.

Now, I don’t know about you guys, but this was probably the most mind blowing thing I’ve seen on film. Why? Because you just saw something that you know is impossible, yet somehow it just happened. It was completely flawless. And there was no (or very little) CGI involved. That’s what made it so believable. And that’s a huge element I think the Matrix sequels and many other movies have failed to capture.

115

[QUOTE=Senior Smith]

I apologize for being so graphic. But I needed to get a point across.

If this were just some mindless skin flick, what would your brain be telling you?
“Oh god, this is so retarded. That wouldn’t happen in a million years…”

However, now with all the buildup & realism, your brain is instead thinking:
“Holy fucking shit this is hot! I can’t believe this is actually happening!!!”
Do you see what I’m getting at?
[/QUOTE]

I agree with your general drift (while not all that interested in your scenario) which is why I don’t watch porn. By not having these scenes, film makers get more sex scenes in. If 90% of your audience would fast forward past the non-sex stuff, they’re going to feel ripped off from not getting enough, and avoid your product.

I doubt there will even be much amateur work, since long films won’t get downloaded as often as short ones.

R-rated movies have this, since they can get marketed better, not having the sex.
When I was in college, I saw the original Flesh Gordon (X) with my girlfriend at a real theater. Those days are long past us.

116

[QUOTE=Voyager]
By not having these scenes, film makers get more sex scenes in. If 90% of your audience would fast forward past the non-sex stuff, they’re going to feel ripped off from not getting enough, and avoid your product.
[/QUOTE]

Alright, lets say that the average fuck flick is 60 minutes long. Then maybe make mine 80 minutes long, with a few minutes of build up & tension in between sex scenes. Now no one feels cheated.

Even if people do fast forward past these scenes, which I believe a lot of them would not, the realism is still there. The sex scenes themselves would be very realistic. You can create fantasy and maintain realism if done right. You can’t force the fantasy onto the viewer. It has to come off as natural, no matter how forbidden or degenerate it may be. You can bend the rules but never break them.

Besides this, the main reason mainstream porn has no sense of realism, even though a lot of them try, is because the actors/actresses don’t even look like real human beings. I’ve honestly never met people who look like this. These are not girls I would ever fantasize about. Why should I have to jump this mental hurdle just to fool myself into believing “this is happening”.

117

[QUOTE=Senior Smith]
Alright, lets say that the average fuck flick is 60 minutes long. Then maybe make mine 80 minutes long, with a few minutes of build up & tension in between sex scenes. Now no one feels cheated.
[/quote]

Would enough additional people buy the 80 minute porn to cover the costs of producing that extra 20 minutes? The people who end up feeling cheated might be the investors.

Is it really necessary to spoon-feed the establishing fantasy to the audience, though? If one woman starts out, for example, dressed as a nun and the other dressed as a Catholic schoolgirl, can’t the viewer (if he wants) mentally create whatever preliminary setup he feels appropriate? I admit, the most tedious porn (in my opinion) is the stuff that doesn’t even make a half-assed (heh) attempt to establish a framework.

I suggest you check out some of the recent “Emmanuelle” films. Though not as hard-core as conventional lesbian porn (not as many hoo hoo closeups), the women are aren’t as stereotypically modified. There’s already enough complaint about increasingly freakish porn actresses that I expect a backlash to more “natural” women is inevitable. I’ve seen magazines supporting that premise for sale and assume porn producers have taken note.

118

[QUOTE=Senior Smith]

Besides this, the main reason mainstream porn has no sense of realism, even though a lot of them try, is because the actors/actresses don’t even look like real human beings. I’ve honestly never met people who look like this. These are not girls I would ever fantasize about. Why should I have to jump this mental hurdle just to fool myself into believing “this is happening”.
[/QUOTE]

No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public. Mencken said words to that effect. You’re asking porn producers to overestimate the taste of the porn watching public. Not going to happen.

Ever see Boogie Nights? That’s partially about this very subject.

119

[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
I suggest you check out some of the recent “Emmanuelle” films.
[/QUOTE]

They’re still making Emmanuelle films?? :eek: Wow. They’re the Nancy Drew of porno.

:slight_smile:

120

[QUOTE=Cartooniverse]
They’re still making Emmanuelle films?? :eek: Wow. They’re the Nancy Drew of porno.

:slight_smile:
[/QUOTE]

..mmmmm… Pamela Sue Martin…