Study: belief in the meritocracy leads to worse outcomes

[iiandyiiii]

Here’s the article:

What Happens When Poor Kids Are Taught Society Is Fair

In short, reseasrchers did a relatively long-term study on a group of disadvantaged, and mostly non-white, middle school students. At multiple points they surveyed opinions about whether society was fair (i.e. is the American dream real?), along with questions about behavior and self-esteem:

Godfrey asked the sixth-graders to rate their endorsement of the “American Dream” and system-justifying ideas—namely, that America is the land of opportunity where everyone who works hard has an equal chance to succeed. Youth were then asked to rate themselves on various qualities, including their self-esteem, risky behaviors (“stayed out all night without your parent’s permission,” “cheated on school tests,” etc.), and perceived discrimination (for example: “How often have others suspected you of doing something wrong because of your ethnicity?” and “How often have the police hassled you because of your ethnicity?”).

At three points over the course of middle school, the youth rated their self-esteem, behavior, and experience with discrimination. The results revealed an alarming trajectory. In sixth grade, among students who believed the system is fair, self-esteem was high and risky behavior was rare; by the end of seventh grade, these same students reported lower self-esteem and more risky behaviors—with no significant differences based on race, ethnicity, gender, or immigration generation (youth from newly arrived immigrant families and native-born counterparts).

What’s more, for youth who perceived more discrimination from an early age, system-justifying beliefs were associated with less risky behavior in sixth grade, but a sharp rise in such behaviors by seventh grade.

This is very interesting, but I wish the article looked at it from the opposite point, as well, as in “does belief that the system is not fair correlate to better outcomes for disadvantaged youths?” – perhaps the study did (link here, but it appears to be behind a paywall), but I’m not sure.

I’m not a parent (yet!), but my gut tells me that the best way to approach this with kids (especially kids of color, as my future kids will be) is to be truthful (as I see it, anyway) – hard work and playing by the rules greatly increases the chance of success in life, but there are lots of biases and unfairnesses in our society that can make it harder for people with certain backgrounds to be successful, even with good effort. Some people will treat you poorly because of your ethnicity/race, including some people whose help and input could be critical to your success. You must work hard, but also be aware of these sorts of obstacles so they don’t come as soul-crushing surprises as an adolescent and young adult.

Kind of like sex ed and drug education – total abstinence education can mean that once they cross the line, or learn the “truth” (i.e. that marijuana really doesn’t kill and necessarily lead to heroin, and that most young people have sex and can do so with low risk), they throw all caution and all teachings about how to do it safely to the wind. A realistic and fact-based education makes sure they aren’t surprised to learn that their peers are smoking weed and having sex, and that it’s usually wise to choose not to do so, but if they do, these are the ways to minimize the danger.

That’s how I see it, anyway.

[Shodan]

How did the students who believed in the American dream but then were disillusioned compare with those who never believed? Did the first group engage in more risky behaviors than the second, or were they the same?

It seems from this -

What’s more, for youth who perceived more discrimination from an early age, system-justifying beliefs were associated with less risky behavior in sixth grade, but a sharp rise in such behaviors by seventh grade.

that they didn’t.

Whether they believed in the system or not, there was a rise in risky behavior as they entered puberty. Which I don’t think is a big surprise.

I am not sure, IOW, what the study is showing.

Regards,
Shodan

[iiandyiiii]

@Shodan

How did the students who believed in the American dream but then were disillusioned compare with those who never believed? Did the first group engage in more risky behaviors than the second, or were they the same?

It seems from this - that they didn’t.

Whether they believed in the system or not, there was a rise in risky behavior as they entered puberty. Which I don’t think is a big surprise.

I am not sure, IOW, what the study is showing.

Regards,
Shodan

I don’t know, hence my questions about looking at it from the other side. Maybe someone can get past the paywall and we can see the actual study.

As a parent, how do you feel about my gut-feeling towards my future parenting?

[Shodan]

@iiandyiiii

As a parent, how do you feel about my gut-feeling towards my future parenting?

To me, it’s a question of emphasis.

If you work hard and get an education, you will succeed in life. Is that guaranteed? No, but the only reasonable thing to do is behave as if it is.

That may be a good excuse, but it is still an excuse.

It almost doesn’t matter if the system is rigged against you - you are still responsible for your own life. ‘The only person you can change is you’, etc.

Teaching your kids that, for instance, the cops are your enemy and will shoot you just because you are black is counter-productive. My father gave me The Talk that supposedly black kids get, and it was not AFAICT much different from what I should do when pulled over if I were black. If I am driving and the cops turn on their flashers, pull over, turn off the car, put on your emergency flashers, and roll the window and put your hands on the steering wheel. You wait until he asks to show your license and registration. If he says ‘do you know why I pulled you over’ you say ‘what was the problem?’

I’ve been stopped by cops both when I was in the wrong (speeding and things like that) and when I was doing nothing wrong (walking home at 1:00am with no ID).

There is a difference IME between extending and expecting to receive, respect and calm, and supine submission.

Similarly in school. I don’t care if the teacher hates you, or the Founding Fathers were slave-owners, or somebody else is pregnant. You have to get good grades and graduate. Sure, there is injustice in the world. You deal with that by not letting it drag you down.

My kids are Asian - I have no idea if that “counts” as people of color, and I don’t care. The worst stereotyping my son ever encountered was when people thought he was Hmong, of which there are a lot in my area, and Hmong is as close as we get to “gangsta Asian”. I don’t care if they think you are gangsta - you still have to do your homework. Etc.

To the extent that what I said had any influence - probably not much - it seems to have worked.

Insert several paragraphs of tedious bragging about how well my son is doing in his new job, how he got straight A’s, how well my daughter is doing in her job, how nice her new house is, etc., etc., etc.

Regards,
Shodan

[iiandyiiii]

Shodan, where does the “excuse” quote come from? I didn’t make that post. Anyway:

@Shodan

To me, it’s a question of emphasis.

If you work hard and get an education, you will succeed in life. Is that guaranteed? No, but the only reasonable thing to do is behave as if it is.

My concern is that if this is all I teach my kids, without referencing the very significant possibility that at some point they will experience disappointment due to being treated in a discriminatory/bigoted manner, and the shock could be crushing and disillusioning to them. Thus I suspect I will teach them that working hard and getting an education gives the greatest chance of success, but there are obstacles in our society to its imperfections, and some of those are related to things like race and ethnicity. Thus they are best equipped both to succeed and to recognize and overcome when they are being treated unfairly.

Teaching your kids that, for instance, the cops are your enemy and will shoot you just because you are black is counter-productive. My father gave me The Talk that supposedly black kids get, and it was not AFAICT much different from what I should do when pulled over if I were black. If I am driving and the cops turn on their flashers, pull over, turn off the car, put on your emergency flashers, and roll the window and put your hands on the steering wheel. You wait until he asks to show your license and registration. If he says ‘do you know why I pulled you over’ you say ‘what was the problem?’

I’ve been stopped by cops both when I was in the wrong (speeding and things like that) and when I was doing nothing wrong (walking home at 1:00am with no ID).

There is a difference IME between extending and expecting to receive, respect and calm, and supine submission.

I certainly agree with this – I don’t plan to teach that cops are the enemy. I do plan to teach that not all cops are good, and that they need to be incredibly careful because some cops might be afraid and anxious around them due to their race (especially if I have a son), and that a wrong move can lead to their death.

Similarly in school. I don’t care if the teacher hates you, or the Founding Fathers were slave-owners, or somebody else is pregnant. You have to get good grades and graduate. Sure, there is injustice in the world. You deal with that by not letting it drag you down.

My kids are Asian - I have no idea if that “counts” as people of color, and I don’t care. The worst stereotyping my son ever encountered was when people thought he was Hmong, of which there are a lot in my area, and Hmong is as close as we get to “gangsta Asian”. I don’t care if they think you are gangsta - you still have to do your homework. Etc.

To the extent that what I said had any influence - probably not much - it seems to have worked.

Insert several paragraphs of tedious bragging about how well my son is doing in his new job, how he got straight A’s, how well my daughter is doing in her job, how nice her new house is, etc., etc., etc.

Regards,
Shodan

Thanks. I don’t think this really seems to conflict with my instincts about how I will parent, even if I might have some additional emphases and things I’ll want to make sure my kids are aware of.

[Shodan]

The “it’s still an excuse” quote didn’t come from you. I read it on the E-budo site many years ago, attributed to someone called Kyosah, and I can’t find out anything more.

My apologies if it looked like I was attributing it to you.

Regards,
Shodan

[Fotheringay-Phipps]

@iiandyiiii

I’m not a parent (yet!), but my gut tells me that the best way to approach this with kids (especially kids of color, as my future kids will be) is to be truthful (as I see it, anyway) – hard work and playing by the rules greatly increases the chance of success in life, but there are lots of biases and unfairnesses in our society that can make it harder for people with certain backgrounds to be successful, even with good effort. Some people will treat you poorly because of your ethnicity/race, including some people whose help and input could be critical to your success. You must work hard, but also be aware of these sorts of obstacles so they don’t come as soul-crushing surprises as an adolescent and young adult.

It’s hard to imagine that anyone disputes this approach as a general principle.

But it can make a huge difference as to how much you focus one part of the message versus the other.

Also, whether you encourage kids to see every failing as the result of an injustice on someone else’s part. I can tell you from personal experience that 100% of the times my kids have gotten in trouble at school, their story have been either that they were completely innocent of all charges or (more commonly) that they were guilty of some minor infraction while one or more other kids did a lot worse and the teacher did nothing to those kids - bottom line that THE TEACHER IS PICKING ON THEM. My response has been open-minded skepticism in the first case (I generally offer to discuss it with the teacher) but to dismiss the second as irrelevant. By now most of my kids are past that point, and when the topic comes up they smile at those excuses as much as I do. But if you accept that sort of thing then you reinforce that their failings are someone else’s fault and that there’s no point in trying because everyone is out to get them, or worse. Not productive.

[blindboyard]

Gulllible, wide-eyed, simpletons who follow the rules lose to people who know how things really work.

The very term meritocracy was meant to be satirical.

[Shodan]

Further -

@iiandyiiii

My concern is that if this is all I teach my kids, without referencing the very significant possibility that at some point they will experience disappointment due to being treated in a discriminatory/bigoted manner, and the shock could be crushing and disillusioning to them. Thus I suspect I will teach them that working hard and getting an education gives the greatest chance of success, but there are obstacles in our society to its imperfections, and some of those are related to things like race and ethnicity. Thus they are best equipped both to succeed and to recognize and overcome when they are being treated unfairly.

Your kids are definitely going to encounter disappointment, and some of those will be unfair. Whether you tell them to expect it or not, it will happen. I see no reason to teach them to react any differently to being discriminated against than to any other kind of disappointment.

I certainly agree with this – I don’t plan to teach that cops are the enemy. I do plan to teach that not all cops are good, and that they need to be incredibly careful because some cops might be afraid and anxious around them due to their race (especially if I have a son), and that a wrong move can lead to their death.

I got the same sort of advice - not from my father, from my judo sensei. “If he’s got a gun, don’t make him nervous”. Again, I don’t see how that advice is any different from what I would say to a black son, and I am whiter than Wonder Bread.

Regards,
Shodan

[Revenant_Threshold]

@Fotheringay-Phipps

Also, whether you encourage kids to see every failing as the result of an injustice on someone else’s part. I can tell you from personal experience that 100% of the times my kids have gotten in trouble at school, their story have been either that they were completely innocent of all charges or (more commonly) that they were guilty of some minor infraction while one or more other kids did a lot worse and the teacher did nothing to those kids - bottom line that THE TEACHER IS PICKING ON THEM. My response has been open-minded skepticism in the first case (I generally offer to discuss it with the teacher) but to dismiss the second as irrelevant. By now most of my kids are past that point, and when the topic comes up they smile at those excuses as much as I do. But if you accept that sort of thing then you reinforce that their failings are someone else’s fault and that there’s no point in trying because everyone is out to get them, or worse. Not productive.

This seems problematic. What if the teacher HAD been picking on them? I got picked on by a teacher when I was young; my concerns got “dismissed”, and the result was I got shit marks in that class, I learned that my parents didn’t have any trust on my word and would not help, and, presumably, the teacher got to continue picking on kids who fit his profile.

Sometimes failings are actually down to someone else. And teaching otherwise, or “dismissing it as irrelevant”. can lead to kids ending up learning that there’s no point in trying just as much as teaching that it can be so.

[iiandyiiii]

@Shodan

Further -
Your kids are definitely going to encounter disappointment, and some of those will be unfair. Whether you tell them to expect it or not, it will happen. I see no reason to teach them to react any differently to being discriminated against than to any other kind of disappointment.

I just don’t want any discrimination to come as an incredible shock to them – I don’t want them to expect it at every turn (which would mean, falsely, that there’s no point to hard work), but at the same time I don’t want them to be so surprised by it that they become disillusioned to any chance of success through hard work. So I want to find the right balance between “hard work and education brings success” and “you will be mistreated at times due to your race”.

[Fotheringay-Phipps]

@Revenant_Threshold

This seems problematic. What if the teacher HAD been picking on them? I got picked on by a teacher when I was young; my concerns got “dismissed”, and the result was I got shit marks in that class, I learned that my parents didn’t have any trust on my word and would not help, and, presumably, the teacher got to continue picking on kids who fit his profile.

Sometimes failings are actually down to someone else. And teaching otherwise, or “dismissing it as irrelevant”. can lead to kids ending up learning that there’s no point in trying just as much as teaching that it can be so.

As I said, I’ve generally offered to speak to the teacher when they claimed to be completely innocent. (And when I did speak to the teachers, it invariably turned out that there was more to the story than the kids’ versions.) What I think is irrelevant is the claim that other kids were doing even worse.

But beyond that, my position is that if someone doesn’t like you, then your job is to make that person like you. At some point in your life you’re going to deal with people who don’t like you, and you won’t have parents to back you up. Your boss might not like you. Your in-laws might not like you. What are you going to do in that circumstance? Focusing on winning over people who don’t like you as opposed to just writing them off is a very good habit to get into. And as a kid in a class, it’s generally not that hard. If instead of going along with your troublemaking pals and expecting the teacher to punish you less than them you focused on behaving better to begin with, you can generally win them over.

Basically, the general message is “I can’t say for sure the teacher was right and teachers can make mistakes, and I wasn’t there. But if you’re admitting that you were somewhat in the wrong then you should focus more on being in the right”. I think that’s a message that’s more effective over time, and my kids today will bear that out.

[k9bfriender]

@Fotheringay-Phipps

Basically, the general message is “I can’t say for sure the teacher was right and teachers can make mistakes, and I wasn’t there. But if you’re admitting that you were somewhat in the wrong then you should focus more on being in the right”. I think that’s a message that’s more effective over time, and my kids today will bear that out.

I do always find it interesting when the solution to a problem of interaction is for the person with less age, training, experience, and responsibility to be the one who has to maintain a proper attitude and behavior in the face of someone with more age, training, experience and responsibility’s unacceptable behavior.

I get it. It’s a practical reality. “Speak up in class and get punished for it by a biased teacher, then stop speaking up in class.” The old, “If it hurts, don’t do it” advice. And it does make sense to prepare people for that world, but it is treating a symptom, poorly, rather than addressing the cause.

But that’s not where we should stop. We should talk to the people that we pay to be responsible to use their greater age, experience and training to be the responsible one until that advice is no longer needed to be given.

[Fotheringay-Phipps]

Well good luck with that. Meanwhile, I’m focused on helping my kids be best prepared for life in the real world.

[Revenant_Threshold]

@Fotheringay-Phipps

As I said, I’ve generally offered to speak to the teacher when they claimed to be completely innocent. (And when I did speak to the teachers, it invariably turned out that there was more to the story than the kids’ versions.) What I think is irrelevant is the claim that other kids were doing even worse.

In my case, claims of complete innocence on my part were true. I was a quiet kid; desire not to be noticed would have prevented me getting up to any hijinks (and, I assume looking back, was one of the reasons I was targeted). The worst that I can be said to have done is “not get good marks”, and that was used as part of the pretext to target me. Me pointing out that there were other kids not doing as well as me seems very relevant to the point that I was being picked on. Too, when I did do better, it made no difference.

In a situation where the punishment supposedly fits the crime, evidence that it does not seems relevant, in general. Suggesting otherwise invites disproportionate punishments, and since we’re talking about kids, teaches them that punishment need not fit the crime.

But beyond that, my position is that if someone doesn’t like you, then your job is to make that person like you. At some point in your life you’re going to deal with people who don’t like you, and you won’t have parents to back you up. Your boss might not like you. Your in-laws might not like you. What are you going to do in that circumstance? Focusing on winning over people who don’t like you as opposed to just writing them off is a very good habit to get into. And as a kid in a class, it’s generally not that hard. If instead of going along with your troublemaking pals and expecting the teacher to punish you less than them you focused on behaving better to begin with, you can generally win them over.

There’s a mile of nuance in those “generally”'s. I have to tell you, in my case as a non-misbehaving student, nothing I tried to stop being picked on worked. And, if you believe nothing else, believe this; I tried. It did not work.

Basically, the general message is “I can’t say for sure the teacher was right and teachers can make mistakes, and I wasn’t there. But if you’re admitting that you were somewhat in the wrong then you should focus more on being in the right”. I think that’s a message that’s more effective over time, and my kids today will bear that out.

I think that’s a message that is fundamentally undercut when focusing on “being in the right” doesn’t have an affect on punishment. To the contrary; if one person does some minor wrong, while all their peers do some major wrong, and are punished all the same, and there is no recognition of the unjustness of that, or attempts to alter it, then the message to the person is; hey, if you’re getting punished for doing the major wrong anyway, why not do that? I think that’s a message that’s more effective over time, too.

[k9bfriender]

@Fotheringay-Phipps

Well good luck with that. Meanwhile, I’m focused on helping my kids be best prepared for life in the real world.

I don’t have kids, so I will be focusing on making the world a better place for yours.

[Fotheringay-Phipps]

@Revenant_Threshold

I think that’s a message that is fundamentally undercut when focusing on “being in the right” doesn’t have an affect on punishment. To the contrary; if one person does some minor wrong, while all their peers do some major wrong, and are punished all the same, and there is no recognition of the unjustness of that, or attempts to alter it, then the message to the person is; hey, if you’re getting punished for doing the major wrong anyway, why not do that? I think that’s a message that’s more effective over time, too.

If you as a parent are 100% sure that your kids are being more harshly punished than other kids who are committing the same or worse infractions, then sure, that should be part of the message too. But that will only very rarely be the case. Far more frequently you won’t be certain of the true situation, and will naturally have reason to suspect that the kids’ version is a very self-serving one (even if they themselves may believe it). The message you chose will be harmful if the kids have it wrong. The message I chose covers all bases.

[Revenant_Threshold]

@Fotheringay-Phipps

If you as a parent are 100% sure that your kids are being more harshly punished than other kids who are committing the same or worse infractions, then sure, that should be part of the message too. But that will only very rarely be the case. Far more frequently you won’t be certain of the true situation, and will naturally have reason to suspect that the kids’ version is a very self-serving one (even if they themselves may believe it). The message you chose will be harmful if the kids have it wrong. The message I chose covers all bases.

Why would you naturally have reason to suspect that a kid’s version is a very self-serving one?

You say that it’s very rare to be 100% sure that your kids are being punished more harshly. Wouldn’t it also be very rare to be 100% sure they aren’t? Too, you suggest that kids may themselves believe, erroneously, that their proclamations of innocence are true when they aren’t. But the reverse is also true; a kid can believe themselves to be at fault in a situation when they aren’t, especially if an authority figure tells them that’s so.

The message you chose doesn’t cover all bases; you’ve got that bit about “teachers can make mistakes” in there, but that needn’t be helpful, and can actually hurt; it points to the possibility of the kid’s story being right without actually doing anything about that. Your example message says to me, “It’s irrelevant if other people are doing wrong, it’s irrelevant if you’re being treated unjustly, it’s irrelevant if you’re being truthful; I will do nothing about any of those things except dismiss them. Just do better.”

[Fotheringay-Phipps]

@Revenant_Threshold

Why would you naturally have reason to suspect that a kid’s version is a very self-serving one?

That’s how people’s minds work. (Not just kids either.)

You say that it’s very rare to be 100% sure that your kids are being punished more harshly. Wouldn’t it also be very rare to be 100% sure they aren’t? Too, you suggest that kids may themselves believe, erroneously, that their proclamations of innocence are true when they aren’t. But the reverse is also true; a kid can believe themselves to be at fault in a situation when they aren’t, especially if an authority figure tells them that’s so.

IME the one scenario is much more common than the other.

The message you chose doesn’t cover all bases; you’ve got that bit about “teachers can make mistakes” in there, but that needn’t be helpful, and can actually hurt; it points to the possibility of the kid’s story being right without actually doing anything about that. Your example message says to me, “It’s irrelevant if other people are doing wrong, it’s irrelevant if you’re being treated unjustly, it’s irrelevant if you’re being truthful; I will do nothing about any of those things except dismiss them. Just do better.”

It’s not irrelevant, but you can’t always solve all the problems in the world and some suffering is inevitable. That itself is also a useful lesson for life, and those who learn this early are better off for it.

[Crazy_Canuck]

@Shodan

If you work hard and get an education, you will succeed in life. Is that guaranteed? No, but the only reasonable thing to do is behave as if it is.

I’m curious on why you feel the only reasonable thing to do is believe a lie. To me, that seems like the opposite of reasonable.