Where’s the flaw in the logic? If you can take a person’s gun rights without due process, what makes any other right more secure?
Slippery Slope is one of the classic logical fallacies. It’s meaningless because it gets used as an excuse for not addressing the underlying problem.
Your claim is doubly fallacious because it depends on a false statement, that the enactment of a law does not constitute due process.
You’ll get much further here by engaging with an issue than by denial. Try it.
That’s a jury. What is being suggested here is to not bother with that. You call me an idiot and fail to note that rather critical distinction?
There’s no slippery slope. If you can take a right away based on suspicion of something, then you can take a right away based on suspicion of something. Period. No slippery slope. That’s just the new normal.
And the enlightenment that assertion adds to this discussion is … what?
“Enlightenment.” Adaher doesn’t have or provide that.
The terrorist watch list has already crossed that line, though. When we created a list of names and prevented those people from getting on a plane, or obtaining a travel visa, or getting a govt job, or whatever else the watch list prevents, THAT was the start of the slippery slope.
The fact that they are prevented from all those things but they can still buy assault rifles demonstrates that we have some screwed up priorities on our way down that slope, but it’s not the beginning of the problem, if you are so concerned about rights being denied without a jury trial.
So please let me know when they repealed the fourth ammendment
The state of our schools; trillions of dollars in household debt; dire world economy; trade strategies; income inequality; campaign financing; military spending and operations; the future of healthcare … all these issues sink into insignificance beneath the most important political topic in America :
[SPOILER]So … is this the fourth political thread without a certain word in the thread title which is currently under hijack by a certain class of nuts so they can discuss the only issue of importance in American politics?
Did you guess right?Guns!! Guns!! Guns!! Guns!!
Guns!! Guns!! Guns!! Guns!!
Guns!! Guns!! Guns!! Guns!!Welcome to post-rational America.[/SPOILER]
I agree that we shouldn’t deny people the ability to get on a flight based on an accusation, unless that accusation is rock solid. Unfortunately, the no-fly list is HUGE, which makes you wonder what the hell is going on. Either they are adding names willy-nillly based on flimsy or no evidence, or that “tiny minority” they claim are radicals ain’t so tiny.
But the Supreme Court has upheld that gun ownership is a right, and rights cannot be taken away based merely on accusations. We have a thing in this country called due process. I should not be having to explain this.
How is that visual rectal-self-examination proceeding for you today? Just a few post above, the Bundy group was alluded to. They are in jail on suspicion of fowl deeds. Ryan himself claims that his Constitutional rights are being ruthlessly trod upon. He cannot gad about, he cannot carry a firearm, his speech, association and holy-mormon-underwear rights are withheld from him, yet he has not been convicted of anything. Yet. He is but a suspect.
This sort of thing happens, I would guess, on the order of hundreds or thousands of times a day. People are suspected of stuff and they get hauled in and manhandled by the police and the jail system. Some of them are released or acquitted, making them not miscreants or felons. Few are compensated for the abridgment of their rights, AFAICT.
Well, they chose the right place for such deeds.
Which brings us to the question: what is the underlying problem? It’s not guns. It never has been and never will be. The underlying problem is the degeneration of our society over the last 50-60 years to where generations of children have been, and are being, raised with absolutely no respect for others, nor any concept of the sanctity of human life. You fix that problem and we won’t have people grabbing for a gun the first time they think someone has dissed them or some other moronic stupidity.
And let’s forget the accomplice to the problem: a news media that trumpets these kinds of incidents to the high heavens, thereby giving the moronic pinhead killers a claim to fame. But what the hell, if it bleeds, it leads, right?
Really? What’s false about it?
Let’s say that the Congress, for whatever reason, passes a law next week that all people named Elvis are unilaterally denied the right to vote or own property of any kind. In addition, they have to register as dangerous people. How would you feel about that, ElvisL1ves? Would you be satisfied that you had received due process simply because a law was passed?
Let’s look at the definition:
In my scenario, yes - a law was passed. However, due process was not followed because the law passed violates the Constitution. Therefore, you did NOT receive due process.
We live in the least violent period of human history, the lowest rates of violent crime in our nation’s history (with the possible exception of the 1950s, which statistics are confounded by the extreme underreporting of crimes against women, children, and minorities). Our period of history shows the greatest respect–so far–for the dignity of the individual.
You’re wrong as hell on this one.
The difference is transparency and judicial review. A judge or a grand jury have to agree that there’s sufficient evidence to try you. A judge gets to decide what sort of bail you can pay to get out of jail. You can look over the evidence against you with a lawyer at your side.
But get on a watch list? How did you get on it? Sorry, national security. What if you shouldn’t be on the list, how do you get off of it? We’re the Federal Government, we don’t make mistakes.
You are two-thirds of the way to being half-right. Yes, there is an underlying problem which is *not * guns, but it is also not a problem, it is a host of intertwined issues that require a great deal more effort than “we got to raise our kids rite!”
I see socioeconomic factors as a big slice of what needs to be addressed. We have a financial sector run by foaming, shortsighted sociopaths putting stupid pressure on the middle and lower classes for the sake of increasing their power stake in the system. We have a society that is being riven with strife as everyone seems to feel the need to compete with each other to get ahead. We have a perverse fixation with technology, a hope that it can solve out problems, as it slowly disconnects us from nature, from balance, from reason and from each other.
And some other stuff.
Guns are not the source or cause of the problem. But neither are they helping.
Stupidl liberal idea of the day: an entire movement flip-flopping en masse on the value of the terrorist watch list.
Ironically, also a stupid conservative idea of the day.
Not at all, since conservatives support the list but have no advocated for any punishment for people on the list. That’s your side doing that. With no due process.
Being on the list is a punishment in itself. Because you can’t fly. It’s in the name.