'Course, if memory serves … that ain’t necessarily saying a whole lot 
Lemming
with all due respect the Columbine kids were not profoundly gifted. I’ve read conflicting reports on whether they were even gifted. I don’t know but I am certain that there are many kids who feel that way regardless of IQ.
I’m not totally a fan of anecdotal evidence ‘proving’ that gifted ed sucks and acceleration is a Bad Thing. You had a crappy time. I had a crappy time with a one year acceleration. ::shrug::
I’m a parent doing the best I can with the best info I currently have to hand. The gifted program you describe is emphatically not a situation I would put my kid in. TBH gifted programs are not all that good an idea IMO. Have you read Ellen Winner’s book Gifted Children, Myths and Realities? I tend to agree with her that the classroom work should be deepened and extended for moderately gifted kids and kids who need more should have appropriate acceleration offered. It’s an interesting read in any case.
The one absolute I do know about my kid is that socialisation for him NO MATTER what I do, is not going to be easy. I don’t have simple choice A and simple choice B. It’s more like crappy choice A and crappy choice B.
And this is true whether or not someone is in a gifted program or not. Any child that doesn’t “blend in” with his/her peers is in for a rough ride, and I’d guess that switching schools didn’t help the situation either.
I’m with Falcon. I went to a parochial school that didn’t offer an accelerated program, and I too was bored out of my skull in most classes. Two problems came out of this:
[ul][li]Since I was a voracious reader, I started spending more and more time reading, looking for things to interest me, and I spent less and less time with other kids. I was a shy kid to begin with, and this withdrawal just didn’t help me socially. My third grade teacher’s advice to my parents: “Tell your daughter to stop being so serious.” :rolleyes:[/li]
[li]I got used to being able to coast through classes with minimal effort, so the first time I hit a class that challenged me (algebra), I panicked and figured that I would never have any ability in that subject. My negative experiences with a subject I “wasn’t good at” nearly kept me from the science career I enjoy so much now.[/li][/ul]
High school wasn’t much better; I actually had a teacher apologize to me and one of my friends because she knew the class wasn’t challenging enough for us. “Socialization” for some of us meant pretending that we weren’t bored, or couldn’t do much more than was being asked of us… THAT was hell. Thankfully things changed once I got to college, but I still wonder sometimes how life would have been different if I’d been more challenged as a youngster.
Primaflora,
In my reference to schoolyard violence, I was not referring to the possibility that any of the students involved may have been gifted. Actually, it follows directly from the whole experience of being “different” for whatever reason. I was trying to convey that, even today, 5 or more years later, I still get a little annoyed with everyone who picked on me when I think about my middle-school years. That doesn’t in any way excuse what they did. I just meant to say that I could sorta tell where they were coming from, gifted or not (hope that doesn’t worry anyone). I in no way intended to connect them with the “gifted” crowd. Rather, that’s what happens when people find themselves as social outcasts and develop an adversarial relationship with the outside world, the establishment, or whatever.
I respect your reluctance to accept anecdotal evidence as proof. I offered my experiences on the basis that they were related to the direction this thread had taken. I have had little experience with “acceleration” so I can’t really comment on that. However, it’s been my personal experience that gifted education is not necessarily a good thing. Others might disagree. As I said, many of the kids that were in that program seem to have turned out just fine. I’m not sure that I’d consider myself one of them, that’s all.
I’m glad to see, though, that you realize that socializing some kids will be hard no matter what. I’m unsure that I would have done better without being in a gifted program, but I doubt that would have been the case. It’s just my point of view that my personal experience with the program I was in nearly drove me right over the edge. Just make sure that you know how your child is getting along socially rather than upbraiding them for being socially inept, as my parents sometimes did when I complained about how school was going. That method only contributed to my misery…
I haven’t read that book. What is a “TBH gifted program”? I know what I do only from direct experience, so please enlighten me–I’ve never heard that terminology used. The idea of in-classroom enrichment sounds like a good idea, but I’ve only had one teacher who ever tried to implement it. Must’ve been a nightmare for her–seemed kind of tough.
Fillet,
I’m not saying that I necessarily would have adjusted socially any better without the gifted program. I did, however, state that being separated from the “regular” kids created some friction.
I’d like to elaborate on that. Typically, the gifted kids developed terrible attitudes. Being separated from the others, being placed in smaller classrooms and given a different kind of instruction than the othes, and so on, gave many of us the idea that we were simply superior to those that we viewed as merely average. This kind of attitude nauseates me, and it’s the same kind of elitism that creates lots of problems for lots of people later on. That my gifted programs seem to have fostered it (and they did, IMHO) is simply disturbing to me.
I know what it’s like coasting through classes and waiting for a challenge. I haven’t really met one yet, and I hate to think what will happen when I do.
Lemming
I was being sloppy and not typing out the whole sentence 
TBH refers to To Be Honest
TBH gifted programs are not all that good an idea IMO.
So it should have read “To be honest, gifted programs are not all that good an idea IMO”
One of the reasons I am unlikely to put my kid in a gifted program is the socialisation aspect. If he is working at a level where he has to actually work to keep up, I think he is learning to learn. If he is in a gifted pull out program , then I don’t think he is necessarily going to learn what he needs to learn. And the elitist aspects bother me too.
In an ideal world I think every child would have an individual education plan and get to be extended and enriched where they need to be. Every child would work at the appropriate level for them and not have be in a lockstep grade level classroom.
So when I rule the world, I will get it sorted OK? 
Primaflora,
Thanks. I figured you were either using a technical term, or resorting to an abbrevation for a commonly-used clause. Turned out to be the latter :o, but I wasn’t really sure–in most of my posts, I’ve typed stuff out longhand for readability. That, of course, has contributed to my low post count. Sorry I missed that abbrevation, but I know most of the others…
I agree with most of your points–those pull-out programs really don’t seem to cut it for socialization, or in providing the kids with the right attitudes. As for ruling the world, maybe you should just settle for being a school superintendent somewhere, or perhaps in charge of an educational organization? Or is that just part of a greater plan for world domination?
Lemming,
I appreciate that being singled out as gifted can create some friction… it’s just that, IMHO, being singled out for ANY reason will be cause for friction, especially with kids of grammar school age.
It’s unfortunate, though, that your gifted program fostered a sense of superiority in the kids who participated. I suspect a certain amount of elitism was conveyed to the kids by parents overly concerned with “intellectual status,” as well as some teachers who couldn’t conceal favoritist attitudes. I personally wouldn’t encourage my kid to have that perception about him/herself; I would rather have him/her learn that everyone has a talent of some sort, and theirs just happened to be academic. Judging from my friends’ children, I’d say they get to learn about that pretty well from being involved in non-academic activities (like age-appropriate sports) with all the other kids. I think schools should take a greater interest in fostering those sorts of interactions so that there’s less of an elitist attitude among “gifted” students.
I had the opposite experience, particularly in high school. I remember all too well sitting in guidance class as we were handed the results of an IQ test that we hadn’t been told about (an extra section on the SAT, apparently), and being told that we should not take any pride in our scores, because none of us was ever likely to amount to being another Einstein. Furthermore, any expressed interest in a profession that seemed out of the norm for women (i.e., not a K-12 teacher or a nurse) was roundly greeted with a who-do-you-think-you-are-for-thinking-you-can-do-anything-different speech. It was amazing… and very disheartening. It took me a long time overcome the feeling that I couldn’t be good enough to pursue the things that really interested me… so I have a real aversion to the idea that a child should be made to be something that they’re not, just to fit in socially.
Bottom line - I think that if a child shows the ability to work beyond their grade level, they should be offered the opportunity to push forward at the pace they are comfortable with - as long as they are also encouraged to participate in non-academic activities that put them on a level playing field with their age peers.
BTW, when you meet up with that challenge - You might be tempted to avoid it completely because you think you can’t hack it. Don’t do that… Look at it as an opportunity to stretch yourself, and realize that you’ll gather a few bumps and bruises while you work your way through it. No one who really cares about you will think less of you because of it, and the rest can just go scratch.
Fillet,
I strongly agree with your “bottom line” comment–it seems to be the act of being separated from one’s peers that really starts creating problems. Something has to level the playing field, socially.
I agree that everyone seems to have their own unique talents and abilities. It is for this reason that it irritates me even today whenever I hear anybody claim superiority (I’m in the Honors College at my university and we have many who do such things–sort of regretting joining it, but that’s another story).
Thanks for taking the time to come up with reasoned responses to my very, very long semi-off-topic rant.
I agree with Fillet on the superiority issue. I never thought I was superior to anyone at my school. More amazingly, neither did my friend James, who got straight A’s from 6th grade until graduation. I think that feeling superior has more to do with the parents than the kids. The kids just feel different, IMO.
[random anecdote]
To illustrate this, I’ll offer this girl Jessica I knew. And honestly, who I hated. She was in the gifted classes with me, and honestly WAS very gifted in English. (Which I envy…I’m better at math & science, honestly.) But her parents thought this made her the best thing since sliced bread, and she thought the same way BECAUSE of them. I know for a fact she got a grade changed in high school to keep her perfect GPA. (Being good friends with the head of the math department pays off…) But she wasn’t the norm for the gifted kids. But her parents helped foster that superiority you talk about, Lemming. So I agree it can exist.
(In the end, I got the last laugh…she opted out of the AP Chem exam, and didn’t pass the AP AB Calc one. I passed both. And I got into William & Mary - her dream school. :))
[/random anecdote]
[teacher mode]
Ok, all you thread-hijackers need a time-out!!
Go sit down and think about what you have done.
I’ll tell you when you can get up.
[/teacher mode]
awww that’s not fair! He started it! Wasn’t my fault! I was just standing there!
I shouldn’t have to go into time out! My mummy said so!
AAAAARGHHHHHH I hate you Ms Kinsey!
Can I add another view?
I’m learning disabled. (ADHD). I went to a Catholic school and their idea of special ed was to send me to a guidance counselor to talk about my “problems”. And to tell the other kids not to pick on me because I was “special.”
Yeah, fuck that.
Look, just because some of us aren’t “gifted” doesn’t mean we aren’t smart. THAT’s what pissed me off about the AP, excellerated gifted programs. In high school, if you were in the LD program, or in the lower weighted classes, you were stupid and “retarded”. It pissed me off because I did so well in history and English, but I was looked down upon for being in “dummy” math. Fuck it-math is my worst subject. I remember in 7th grade my teacher picking on me because I was the last one (and the only one) who hadn’t finished her paper and the rest of the class wanted a free period. She kept taunting me about it and saying “Kathi, hurry up, the class wants a free period.” Everyone was nasty to me after class and I went home in tears. Yeah, that made me feel REALLY good about myself.
As the person who planted the seeds of the hijack, I think it bears clarifying that I’m not talking about gifted education or school acceleration. At one time I supposedly fit that “gifted” label, and I’ve blathered about that adequately on threads that were dedicated to the topic.
What I am talking about is the trend towards pushing babies and toddlers to achieve and to demonstrate school-oriented learning. I know there are some little nippers who grasp this stuff early and thrive on it, but I think there are too many well-meaning (?) parents who push this, and push it too early. Think of all the toys which emphasize learning numbers, colors, and letters. Think of the software marketing for babies. Think of the daycares that make claims about school preparation. That’s the kind of thing I’m talking about. Sure, these things can be fun. I’ve got tons of VTech toys and god forbid, even some JumpStart Baby software. But in the wrong hands, I think this can create a very pressured environment for a child. This may create behavioral, emotional, and neurological problems that only crop up later.
Wee ones can learn a lot from making mudpies and throwing tupperware around. That’s okay activity. I feel that some parents are forgetting that.
What role do schools play in encouraging such pressure? Private schools that administer tests to students before kindergarten are an obvious culprit. Explicit lists of what a child should know before starting school may also play a role. Many of the items are reasonable, of course. But not all of the expectations espoused by some schools may be necessary, and there is also a potential for anxious parents to make the mistake of thinking “more is better.” [i.e. So my child is supposed to know his own phone number (for safety reasons?) Let’s drill him on all sorts of other numbers, too. ]
Incidentally, I think shows like Sesame Street are fantastic. That’s not as inconsistent at it might seem, given what I’ve written above. Big Bird doesn’t frown or scold when a child stops paying attention. Oscar doesn’t drill the child on what s/he’s learned. Ernie doesn’t smile bigger when the child gets and answer right, and smaller when only half-right. It can be as passive as the child needs it to be, and there is no component of emotional acceptance or approval that varies according to performance.
Plus I have a crush on Kermit.
To get back to Kinsey’s rant…… We have outstanding public schools where I live. We’re very lucky that way. But private schools are pretty appealing for me for one huge reason: private schools have a better ability to tell stupid parents to stuff it up their ass. Not that they all DO this as often as they should…… but public schools seem particularly hamstrung. One bad kid with shitty parents can ruin the experience for everyone. I saw it happen when I was in school, and I keep reading about it in the papers. Argh!
As much as I crave that our son be exposed to many types of diversity, there are several “viewpoints” I’d prefer he be shielded from: Attitudes that school isn’t important, that teachers aren’t to be respected, that a kid can do no wrong, that educators have better never discipline a kid, etc… If I can find a school where more parents feel the same way, I’m all over it like white on rice. Give me a principal who isn’t afraid to tell Momzilla to back the hell off, and I’ll write my tuition check with glee.
Cranky,
While you’re looking for the school where the principal’s not afraid of Momzilla, let me know if you find one where (gasp) the children do their own projects?
I want to add a slight tangent to my OP.
In addition to the parents who pressure their kids to perform in school, how about the parents who think their child’s every waking moment MUST be filled by some organized activity? You know: soccer, t-ball, lacrosse, swimming lessons, gymnastics, ballet lessons, tap dancing, French lessons, piano lessons, Art lessons, Scouts, drama lessons, etc. and on and on and on. Pick two or three and let that be it.
Kids need time to just hang out and play.
When I started first grade (this was in 1982) I had followed a family pattern of learning to read early. At four and a half, to be more precise. So had my mother, my aunt, and my grandma, and probably a bunch of other relatives on that side. In no way had I been pushed to read, I just picked it up. My brother did the same thing.
I have no idea what my kindergarden teacher had thought of this. I don’t think we were expected to learn to read in kindergarden like some kids are now. I do remember we made snowglobes (or whatever those are) out of baby food jars once. So I get to first grade, and the teacher starts us on phonics. That’s fine, if you can’t read yet! I was bored silly and started acting up. After several weeks Mrs. Barry finally relented to my mom’s request and sent me up the hall to be tested. Surprise! I was reading at a 6th grade level!
She had thought Mom was being pushy. Once she realized that I really WAS able to read, all went well. I don’t believe I was ever subjected to a reading lesson again, and in third grade I got to go sit in the corner with several bookshelves full of National Geographics during reading, because it was totally clear that I did not need third-grade reading lessons. I don’t remember resenting this, or having the other kids resent me. I think they kind of understood that in reading I was miles ahead.
It might have helped, too, that I had major trouble learning to multiply and had to get a tutor. My math troubles are NOT a new thing. (Anybody want a peek at my D average in basic college-level algebra? I didn’t think so.)
I was in gifted classes off and on, but still managed to underachieve.
My point? Oh, yeah. Sure, parents shouldn’t push their little kids in academics. Some kids, though, just pick it up. Don’t assume that you must have pushy parents when confronted with a surprisingly talented kid; you might just have a bright kid on your hands.
Wow, WhiteRabbit, I felt like I was reading about myself there for a minute. What you described was me exactly, reading early, reading way ahead my grade level, but trouble with Math.
That’s me; never cracked a book or studied in Junior HIgh and High School, and got C’s and B’s.
Oh yeah, and when you were just starting school in 1982? I was just starting college. Now I feel old.