I hate to be the one to break this to you, but its pretty difficult to predict what’s going to distract you. A few years ago, l ran a red light simply because it was very close after another light, and I’d never encountered a situation where one was green while the other was red (I actually thought they were redundant signals for the same intersection). Of course, since l was looking where I was going, l didn’t simply plow into the guy crossing the street. I did, however, neglect to anticipate the cross traffic in what l thought was a safe intersection, and l was promptly creamed by a ford econoline van, whose driver l apologized to at great length. Curiously, l am not an asshole.
Saddly, apologizing or saying much more then is necessary to offer help, call the police, etc. is not something that you should ever do if you’re involved in an accident: anything you say could come back to bite you in civil or criminal court.
Note: I’m not saying the other driver isn’t responsible. I’m not saying that he’s definitely not an asshole, and I’m not saying that people shouldn’t apologize when they fuck up. I’m ONLY offering a possible explanation for the behaviour of the other driver, and no further implications should be drawn from the above sentence.
Yes.
Just a tiny “Erm…” from the other side of the fence…
My son, who is 16 and who has had his license for less than 6 months, ran a red light yesterday afternoon, with his 13-year-old sister in the car, on their way to a church Superbowl party. They were broadsided on his side by someone in a big truck. I am still thanking God that no one was hurt.
No particular reason for him to run the red light, just that he was talking to his sister, and he’s new at driving, and he’s not a very good driver.
Just wanted to point out that not everyone who runs a red light and causes an accident is an asshole. Sometimes an accident is just an “accident”. Shit happens.
And the mortification he’s currently feeling at (probably) having totaled the family car–which was paid for–and knowing that Dad is probably looking at having to buy some kind of family wheels with the $6,300 Blue Book price the car is worth, less the $1,000 deductible, is IMO punishment enough for him.
It’s good to hear your dad’s okay!
My sister is an insurance adjuster and she estimates a good forty percent of the cases she sees have something to do with running red lights. People jumping a red light before it actually turns green, crossing when it’s too yellow, and just plain running red lights. I’ve been much more cautious about others and stopped taking risks myself, since I learned that.
What I’ve noticed around here lately, is people who stop for the light, take a quick look around, and then bolt through the intersection. For goodness’ sake, it never saves them any time; I’ve always caught up with them by the next light!
I’m glad to hear your father is doing well, KCSuze.
For whatever it’s worth, I remember being marked down on my driving test sixteen years ago because I went go on a green light (!!). The reason? I didn’t look both ways just in case of an errant red-light-runner. When we’re actually disciplining drivers because they don’t account for the possible unpredictable illegal behavior of other drivers, the fault is being placed on the wrong person. At the very least, the red-light-runner should have to lose his license until he takes the physical drive test again to prove he’s road-safe.
Back when I first started driving, I was on my way to work, and popped a new tape into the deck – Bob Marley, IIRC.
Dude was so mellow that I zoned out for a moment, and only noticed that I was reaching a red light when I was right at the intersection.
I screeched on the brakes, left rubber skid marks, and still ended up ten feet into the intersection.
I threw that tape away :). Nobody was hurt, no accidents, but I was terrified at zoning out like that; it’s never happened again.
Am I an asshole for that?
Daniel
It’s too hard to generalize why people run red lights. I’ve seen both types (not paying attention, and people who’s time is more important than other people’s lives). I wouldn’t call all red light runners assholes automatically.
I’ve run a red by accident. I was driving up my street, my brain in automatic looking for people/cars/animals/pot holes. The light was red but I was unable to make it out properly due to the setting sun (my street is uphill facing west) and my brain didn’t register the light. I just zipped through it.
When I’m in a rush I typically by-pass a light near my house. It’s a useless light (no traffic at 3 am) and instead of wasting 1 minute 15 seconds (timed by me) I take a right (it’s a protected right, don’t have to stop) and pull a quick U-turn.
I can almost get home before the light turns green on my side 
There’s a reason they’re called accidents Q.E.D. That doesn’t mean that one party isn’t entirely at fault, it means that no one means for them to happen. I believe in the midst of all of your rightous indignation, you’ve failed to realize that humans are, well, human. We make mistakes. And we most definately should bear the consequences of those mistakes, within reason. I belive that is what Metacom is trying to explain.
I also don’t believe running a red automatically makes one an asshole. Around here, running reds is the norm, to a point where gunning it into an intersection on a green without first checking to see if anyone is coming is considered high risk behavior. Definately not defensive driving. I’ve ran a red. It was one of those two lights really close together, looks like one can be an extention of another type things. I didn’t mean to. I’d be highly offended if someone called me an asshole because of it. Or suggested taking away my license. I have an hour commute to work and school. I start work at 10:00 am and get out of school at 9:00 pm. Without a car, I would not be able to do this. So, I should lose my livlihood and be unable to continue with my education because of a stupid mistake that caused no harm? No. I should get a ticket for said mistake. Attending traffic school if I don’t want the point on my record. I believe the former solution is a bit overboard, don’t you? Now, If I had caused an accident due to said mistake, then I should deal with those consequences. But taking away someones lisence for something as minor as running a red light is just silly, IMHO.
Now, I’m not excusing red light runners. I’m just speaking with both feet firmly planted in reality. Shit happens. People run reds. That doesn’t mean their licenses should be revoked, they should attend drivers ed or any such thing (unless they’re getting out of a ticket, which red light runners should most definately recieve).
Oh – I realize I left it out of my other post to the thread, but I’m really glad your dad is okay, KCSuze. That sounds like a terrifying experience.
Daniel
To requote Q.E.D.,
I don’t see what’s so unreasonable about that statement, nor the penalty for those who are incapable, or unwilling, to fulfill such a simple requirement. If you can’t pay attention, you demonstrate that you are incapable of operating a motor vehicle safely.
This thread is not about someone who “just” ran a red light. It’s about someone who ran a red light and plowed into another vehicle. Such an incident is entirely due to negligence on someone’s part. In my opinion, such a person should have their license revoked, no matter what excuse he or she has to offer (unless it was some bizarre mechanical failure which s/he truly had no control over).
Except suspending a license isn’t really a revocation of driving privledges and isn’t all that effective. Anyone can drive if they have access to a vehicle, a license just makes it legal to drive the vehicle. A severe punishment would be to take away the license and any chance of operating a motor vehicle.
You’re missing my point. Yes, if you can’t pay attention, you demonstrate you are incapable of operating a motor vehicle safely. But there are instances where people get momentarily distracted. It happens. Something fell onto your windshield, someone just cut you off, there’s a funky light thing (such was the case with when I accidentally ran a red) or a plethora of other reasons. All I’m saying is that this whole “zero tolerance” mentality isn’t the least bit realistic. Are you saying that there has never been an instant in all the time you’ve been driving when your attention was diverted, if only for a few seconds? If so, then you my friend, are an anomoly. I’m sure most, if not all, drivers have at one point in time, had their attention diverted for a second or two. Is it right? No. Can it be dangerous? Certainly. But that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be able to drive, ever. I’m not excusing or justifying running a red. I’m merely asserting that it happens, sometimes and that doesn’t mean that the driver is incapable of operating a motor vehicle safely. Judge not, and all that jazz. Now if the driver is constantly distracted, that is an entirely different story.
Yeah, that would be why I added that statement in my last post about running a light and not causing harm not resulting in a revocation of your license. Of course it’s a different scenerio if you cause an accident.
That should be a give-in.
I would like to point out that I in no way implied that every single person who has ever run a red light in the entire history of the world is an asshole. I singled out this particular individual who hit my father. Call me crazy, but my father is important to me. Anyone who puts his life in danger, either through selfishness or simple negligence, is in my eyes an asshole. I was angry at this person and I vented. I’m kind of protective of my family that way.
By the way, my mother once got a ticket for running a red light. There was a large van in front of her and she didn’t see the light change before it was too late. She cried for forty-five minutes after she got the ticket.
I’ll shut up now.
Oh, I know that KC. And I’m very sorry for what happened to your father and am thrilled he’s okay. I got hit head on back in November because someone failed to yield to me when making a left turn. Idiotic, yes, but I wouldn’t advocate stripping him of his license if it wasn’t habitual behavior.
I was more responding to Q.E.D and Darwin’s Finch, who seem to believe that everyone who runs a red light, ever, is an asshole who deserves to lose their driving privledges for life. At least, that seems to be what they’re advocating here. I have a hard time believing that they actually think that though, since they both appear to be intelligent and thus beyond such simplistic black and white ways of thinking.
Well, no shit. The thing is, automobile drivers as a group make FAR too many mistakes, IMHO. Look, at commercial pilots. As a group, they have a much lower per capita incidence of accidents than car drivers do. Why might this be? It’s partly technology, which I’ll grant you the auto industry is far behind on, in some areas (cost effectiveness, consumer demand, lack of federal regulations, bleah!). It’s certainly not that the skies are less crowded. They may look virtually empty from the ground, but near major metro areas, they’re packed, especially at 600 MPH. The main reason, more than any other, is training and focus. I’m just using this as an example to point out that, although people can certainly make mistakes (and I’m no exception), when one endeavors to take on a dangerous task, such as driving or flying, it is possible to increase safety and reduce errors by removing as many distractions as are within one’s control, and being better-trained–yet another area, I’d like to see improvement in. As it stands now, driver education in this country sucks ass. And yes, also increasing penalties for driving offenses is something I think we need to consider. unfortunately, it’s not possible to take into account every possible extenuating circumstance, in situations like this. If a few people who ran a red because they got distracted by a bird or some such thing beyond their control lose their licenses to keep the dozens or hundreds of others that simply drive carelessly from killing someone, then so be it.
Hear hear! A lot of people are boohooing it, “You can be distracted!” No shit you can be. It’s your responsibility when you get behind the wheel of a car to take all the precautions you can to make sure that doesn’t happen. Ever see that lame commercial where four teenage kids are in a car doing all the things you shouldn’t do? Eating, fiddling with the radio, talking–those are all distractions. It ended with them almost rear ending another car and realizing you need to focus on the road. Yes humans are just that. But (especially at crosswalks and intersections) you should be giving your full undivided attention to the road, <i>no matter what your passenger is trying to tell you</i> or <i>if your favorite song is on the radio</i>. Those are lame, <i>bullshit</i>, <i>copout</i> excuses.
Maybe you’d feel a bit different about this whole red-light-running situation if you were on the receiving end of it. I’m a pedestrian; I don’t own a car and don’t care to. Not saying I don’t have a driver’s license or access to a car when I want. The town I live in is only about 8-9 miles long and only a couple wide. I can walk anywhere I need within roughly 45 minutes. I avoid intersections with traffic lights like the plague. People are so stupid, no, distracted, that I’ve had to jump/run/back peddle more times than I could count on my hands and feet to avoid being just another stain on the blacktop. Of course these “distracted” people get the finger and yelled at until they’re a block away. But it doesn’t make up for the fact that my life was put in jeopardy because some fuck-face wanted to change radio stations or carry on a conversation with whomever else is in the car. For fuck sakes people, driving isn’t that hard of a thing to do. And if you do it correctly and safely there shouldn’t be a problem. Remember it’s a <i>privilege</i> not a <i>right</i>.
Well, if you will allow me a moment of self-righteousness: yes, I can say that in all the time I’ve been driving my attention has never been diverted, not even for a few seconds. For, you see, I’ve only been driving a few times, and I can tell you that I was incredibly alert during those times. Driving scares the hell out of me precisely because I know how easily I can be distracted if I allow myself to be, and I am fully aware of the possible consequences should I allow such to happen. That would be why I a) don’t have a license (the times I did drive were when I had a learner’s permit. I just never carried through and got my license before the permit expired), and b) don’t really care to get one.
Would that more people recognized their limitations before putting their, and others’ lives in their hands.
First, please point out where, in my one and only previous post to this thread, I even wrote “asshole”, much less implied that anyone was one. I am advocating the position that people should take responsibility for their actions - or inaction as the result of simply not paying attention. Not “that everyone who runs a red light, ever, is an asshole”. I think you have me confused with someone else.
Second, please point out where I mentioned the phrase “for life”, or even words to that effect. If you (generic “you”) screw up because you can’t stay focused, and you cause injury or property damage as a result, you don’t need to drive. It’s as simple as that. If you can learn your lesson after being forced to hoof it or take public transportation for a few months, fine. No reason why you can’t get your license back. If you can’t learn that lesson, then you shouldn’t get your license back.
Note that none of the above is meant to imply that no matter what, someone should be punished. There are certainly instances where an accident is truly an accident; negligence on the part of the driver is not one of them. If a bird flies into your windshield at 50mph, I would certainly not fault anyone who freaked out and wound up hitting something or someone else. If you’re reaching for a french fry, or too busy fiddling with the radio, or just in too damn much of a hurry to bother with red lights or stop signs, and you hit someone else, then sorry, you don’t deserve sympathy or leniency.
In the case of the OP, the driver that ran the red light most certainly screwed up. I think a higher penalty than simply a higher insurance premium is more than warranted.
And sometimes, despite the best efforts by reasonable people, accidents still happen.
I wouldn’t.
I was recently involved in an accident that wasn’t my fault: I was waiting for oncoming traffic to clear so I could make a left turn into my apartment complex’s driveway, and a teen rear-ended me. Ruined my bumper and left me a bit shaken up and a little sore the next day, but no worse harm came from it. I don’t think the person who hit me was an asshole. I don’t think he deserves to lose his license. I don’t even think he was a “fuck-face” or a “gelatinous mass of stupid”. He fucked up, he got dinged with a ticket and (given that he was young and now had an at-fault on his record) likely a hefty insurance increase, and he probably learned something from it.
Sorry I can’t respond too much at this point, I’m running off to work. But this:
I simply had to address. So, you’re going with the “punish everyone for the good of a few” mentality? Can you not see how seriously flawed that logic is? You’re pretty much saying that something entirely out of someones control should still result in them being punished. Where is the logic in that? So, if a bird flys into my windsheild and I accidentally run a red, I should lose my license and thus my job and have to quit school to teach others that do not and will never know me a lesson? How is that fair? How is that just? And please save me the “life isn’t fair” lecture, this is beyond that. There’s no sense to this.
We have punishment for incidences that don’t cause harm and that are truly accidents. They’re called tickets. Get too many of them, and you will lose your license. That’s fair. Having too many tickets resulting in your losing your license is an indication that you shouldn’t be driving. Having some freak occurance like a bird running into your windshield is not.
Can you honestly not see the difference?
You’re sort of twising my words here. What I am saying is that if a few honestly distracted red light runners have to suffer a little to stop all the many fucktards who can’t be bothered to pay attention when they’re driving, I wouldn’t have a problem with that.