I found a cite if anyone’s curious.
Here’s something a bit more recent.
Well, i don’t think anyone ever suggested that you should be punished for such a completely unforeseeable event as a bird flying into your windshield. But some people also seem to be trying to escape taking responsibility for a lapse in attention or concentration while driving, and suggesting that taking a person’s licence away is not a reasonable punishment. Sure, such a lapse may be completely unintended, and it may not mean that someone is an asshole, but it’s hardly “entirely outside of someone’s control,” as the case of the bird is.
If someone can’t concentrate all the time while driving, then that someone simply shouldn’t be on the road. The stakes are too high. As i said before, driving is not a right enshrined in the constitution, and if you can’t keep your head in the game while behind the wheel, then take a bus. All these excuses like “it was two sets of traffic lights close together” don’t cut the mustard, as far as i’m concerned.
Sure, the crash in the OP was an accident; no-one’s suggesting that the guy plowed through the red light intentionally, in the hope of hitting someone. But the fact remains that if you miss the red light, even if only due to a “momentary lapse of concentration,” you are a danger to other road users. Asshole? Maybe not. Dangerous? Yes, IMO. What Q.E.D. is suggesting (if i’m not mistaken), and what i’m saying, is that if such inattentive driving habits were punished more harshly, maybe people would learn to pay more attention.
Unfortunately, as Jeff Olsen’s posts show, suspending someone’s licence may not be a very efficacious remedy for bad driving. I guess the option then is to really ramp up the penalties for driving while suspended. Make it a felony or something. After all, if your licence is suspended or revoked, it’s not like you don’t know about it. Driving under such circumstances is not simply ignoring the law, it’s contravening a specific directive, and should be punished accordingly.
I know people need their cars for work and such, but if the car is that important to them, they should learn how to use it responsibly.
I don’t see how I’m twisting your words at all. You said that if a few honestly distracted red light runners have to suffer a little (which is entirely subjective, as I’ve demonstrated by what would happen to me if I were to lose my license, I’m actually a bit offended that you would classify my losing my job and being unable to continue my education as “suffering a little”, but that’s beside the point) then too bad. That would mean that if an honestly distracted person ran a red they’d get their license revoked, yes?
That is what you said, right?
Here’s the crux of the matter. As a society, we’ve decided that someone who can’t pay attention 100% of the time CAN still be on the road: it’s only when someone has demonstrated a pattern of not paying attention that their license is suspended. As a society, we’ve decided that the convenience of a mobile society outweighs the safety of removing someone from the road for a momentary lapse of attention.
But you don’t like that. What can I say? It’s entirely a value judgment, and I’m glad your values aren’t the ones in control.
I’d be interested in some research showing what percentage of drivers CAN “concentrate all the time.” My guess is that the number of drivers who do so is vanishingly small, that most drivers who use their vehicles more than once a week get distracted in their vehicles at least once a month – whether it’s by something on the radio, by a bumpersticker that they can’t quite read, by a flashy billboard, by an attractive or distinctive person in the next car, by worriesa bout their taxes, by the coffee they’re drinking, by the semi that’s tailgating them or whatever.
Again, we as a society have decided not to remove folks’ driving privileges for the rare distraction, even when the rare distraction causes an accident. Only when the distraction becomes a pattern do we punish it harshly.
To do otherwise would clear the roads. Though that might be a good thing, it’s hardly practical, given our current social structures.
Daniel
Actually, that’s exactly what Q.E.D. said. Read his post again. He said that if it would help to make drivers pay attention more, then a few honest people that ran reds due to circumstances beyond their control should have to suffer. For the greater good, I’m sure.
No, it’s not. Doesn’t change the fact that it happens. It happens to all of us, every day. Sometimes it’s so quick you don’t even notice it. And in many cases, it IS beyond someones control. As my examples of someone cutting in front of you, or a number of things that happen quite frequently, show. If someone can come in here and claim they are completely undistracted 110% of the time, that they are COMPLETELY engrossed in the act of driving, all the time they drive, then I’d appreciate it. Never think about other things, never look at their kids in the rearview and tell them to quit screaming, none of that. 110% FOCUSED. Posters like Darwin’s Finch who don’t even freaking drive don’t count. I commute close to 200 miles, round trip, every day. During those 200 miles, there are going to be times when my attention is diverted, if only for a second. I’m being realistic here, something I think a lot of you aren’t being. It’s easy to climb up on that soapbox (especially those who don’t even drive) and give the 'ol “if you’re distracted even for a millisecond you’re a DANGER TO THE ROADS and you SHOULDN’T BE DRIVING!!” speech. It’s a little harder to actually practice it.
I think you’re confusing a one to two second distraction with talking on the cell phone/eating a cheeseburger/watching the scenery wiz by. They really are two seperate things. See my above comments.
And I’m saying that no matter how hard you concentrate, there will be moments where you’ll be distracted. We’re human. Unless we’re cyborgs that are programmed to be 100% in the moment at all times no matter WHAT outside influences intervene, it WILL happen. It’s not a matter of learning how to pay more attention. If we’re willing to punish those who are distracted due to things completely out of their control (as Q.E.D. is suggesting), then we’re not teaching anyone, anything. Well, actually, we’re probably teaching them to pray nothing out of the ordinary happens that could in turn ruin their lives (if they are completely dependent on driving), but that wasn’t your goal now, was it? Yeah, there are people that really are dangerous. That constantly talk on their cell phones/eat cheeseburgers/watch the scenery wiz by. And they shouldn’t be on the roads. But lumping those of us who only succumb to things every human does in with them isn’t going to help anybody. People that continually do not pay attention get tickets (with any luck). Get too many tickets, your license gets yanked, with good cause. Going around yanking everyones license isn’t going to solve anything.
IF those licenses are suspended for good reason. IMHO, running a red is not enough reason to get your license revoked, for the reasons I’ve stated above. You can be the most responsible driver in the world but sometimes, shit happens. You get distracted. Again, we’re human. If you still disagree, then we’re going to have to agree to disagree.
Yes, that’s what I’m saying. Here’s the problem with your little idealistic society: how is a driver who gets ticketed for running a red light going to prove in a court of law that he was distracted by something beyond his control, rather that one who wasn’t paying attention because he was yakking it up on a cellphone or putting on makeup? This isn’t unprecedented. What about the person who gets ticketed because of a light that just went out before the officer saw it. How can that driver prove the circumstances were beyond his control? He cannot.
I find it very hard to believe that losing your license for some months would be such a hardship as to ruin your life. I have lost mine (yes, my own stupidity in my younger years), but I could adapt. It wasn’t fun, but it wasn’t impossible either. It’s supposed to be difficult for you. That’s what a punishment is. How much good can a painless lesson do?
Agreed. 
Yeah, that would be why I think revoking a license for running a red would be overkill. I’m not arguing the “act of god” reasoning for running it, I’m arguing the fact that it’s an overly harsh punishment, using the fact that “acts of god” can cause it, thus making it REALLY harsh.
And yeah, considering I’d lose my job and would have to quit law school if I couldn’t drive, it would pretty much ruin my life.
Agreeing to disagree.
KCSuze, I’m glad you’re Dad is okay. My wife got hit (in my car) the same way. Happily it was a Saturn, designed for just this event, and it gave up its life to protect hers. When I arrived at the accident site, I found the idiot and his two friends (who were not all that young) sitting on the curb laughing. They were lucky there were cops around or else I would have kicked their fool heads in.
I’m sure some red light running is from distraction, but more is from people feeling that they are just so important it doesn’t matter. In my town there were several intersections where 2 - 3 cars typically ran the red light every time I was there. Then they put in red light cameras at the intersections with the most accidents. The accident rate plummeted. Since if you’re distracted you are not going to care about the camera, I can only conclude that most of the red light runners did it deliberately, and stopped when it got expensive. OI hardly see anyone run lights at these intersections anymore.
When I do, and see the flash of the strobe capturing the clown’s license and picture, I at least have the pleasure of knowing that he’s going to get an expensive letter soon.
We’re talking about running red lights, Metacom. I can understand a whole lot more being rear ended by someone than being hit at an intersection where there was a red light. There is absolutely no excuse when you are approaching an intersection why you shouldn’t be giving you full 100 percent undivided attention to what’s happening (Or any other time, but things do happen…) I wouldn’t be as mad either if I were being protected by a car. I was talking from the standpoint of a pedestrian. Did you bother to read through my entire post before knee jerking?
Usually if you have a red light, the cross traffic has a green light, as does the pedestrian crossing the road. Do you only become a fuck-face when you seriously injure somebody?? It’s all ok when no one was hurt, no harm no foul right? I say you’re a fuck-face no matter what if you go flying through a red light. And the more I think about this “I was distracted for a second” bullshit, the more shit I can smell. You’d have to be distracted for a whole lot longer than a second to realize Once you realize that you’re coasting through a red light, you slam on your breaks and honk your horn to alert everyone that something’s happened and they need to slow down or stop. Most of the time the people who are running red lights have done it in the past and will do it in the future. Most of the time. It’s like a drunk driver who got caught for the first time. If they were willing to get behind the wheel of the car that time, they’ve probably done it in the past–and would have kept doing it until they got caught and punished severely.
Eh? Being distracted at anytime is bad, period. The whole point of being distracted is that you don’t know what’s going on around you–you don’t know there’s an intersection, or that Metacom is stopped waiting to make a turn. It doesn’t really make sense to say “It’s worse to be distracted in situation X”, because the whole point of being distracted is that you don’t know what situation you’re in.
I thought my response was clear and reasoned. I don’t enjoy discussions that immediately lapse into ad hominems and straw men (“No harm no foul?” I said no such thing), and if I see any more I won’t participate in this one.
Actually, I disagree with that. I think that intent is what matters most: if an otherwise good driver slips up, accidently runs a red light, and creams a pedestrian, I don’t think they should be punished (by anything other then their conscience) any more then if they ran the light without hurting anyone.
I don’t understand why people keep making lame-ass excuses for people who run red lights.
I admit that there is distraction in driving. I constantly flip between four radio stations to find the best song- that’s certainly distracting. But you know what? This distraction might cause me to go 5 miles over the limit or something. But to NOT SEE A RED LIGHT (?) is more than a moment’s distraction- are the people who run them not aware of an intersection even approaching? That’s a HELL of a long time to be distracted. Or do they not SEE that the color of the light is obscured? The sun doesn’t just POP out in front of red lights, it’s there all the time! Guess what? The sun’s been in my eyes and I couldn’t see the color of the light. What do you do? YOU SLOW DOWN, GENIUS, you don’t STEP ON THE GAS! If you don’t understand the light configuration at an intersection, you SLOW DOWN and approach it cautiously, you don’t STEP ON THE GAS!
It’s all about being a defensive driver- either you are or you aren’t. Either you know how to avoid accidents or you don’t. Yes, momentary distraction is one thing, but when an intersection surprises you then you have absolutely NO RIGHT to be operating a motor vehicle.
I don’t see people making excuses so much as I see people discussing mitigating circumstances.
No one is saying that it’s OK or excusable, people are saying that it can happen to the best of us, and, when it does happen, the punishment shouldn’t be severe. Agree or disagree with that as you will, but I think saying that we’re excusing the behaviour is a mischarecterization of our argument (or my argument, at least).
I never made excuses for running red lights either. I said it’s bad. I said you should get a ticket. I also said it shouldn’t result in you losing your license.
That’s not excusing it.
Sheesh people, try arguing what I’m actually saying, not the words that you’re putting into my fingers.
For the LAST time, it’s NOT about making excuses. There IS no excuse for running reds. Like Metacom said, there are mitigating circumstances, that STILL DO NOT EXCUSE IT. All I am saying, and I feel confident in saying Metacom is saying as well, is that REVOKING SOMEONES LICENSE FOR RUNNING A RED IS TOO HARSH A PUNISHMENT. Revoking someones license depending on their individual circumstances, can be a SEVERE hardship, unequal to the nature of the crime. It’s not a difficult concept. If you are a habitual red light runner, then your tickets will stack up and you will eventually get your license revoked, with good cause. But getting it revoked as the result of running one red, is OVERLY HARSH.
Good god.
You know what the police officer is going to say to the person he just caught wizzing through a red light? “What if there had been a child in that crosswalk?”
“Duh, he-yuck, I was distracted so it would have been all right.”
I can’t believe how nonchalant people are acting about this issue. Hopefully it will be one of your(general) children or someone whom you love dearly that gets creamed by a distracted driver next time.
[continuing hijack]
Hopefully, those who NEVER get distracted when they drive, never will be the cause of an accident. I can’t imagine how painful it would be to have to deal with something that I’d been hyper-vigilant against, but now perpetrated. You know, that old standard about “never saying never.” I think it would make one more upset than those who understand possible mitigating circumstances.
But I, on the other hand, wouldn’t really know about that because I’ve been one of the ones to do something really foolish, like accidentally run a red light.
It’s happened to me twice. Once, when I had just moved to a new location and didn’t realize that the road I took to my job had two traffic lights, one right behind the other. On my first morning commute, I diligently overlooked the first, sailing right through it, and went to stop at the second. Didn’t even have a clue until I heard the cars honking as I passed by. Thank God there was no wreck.
The second was at least familiar surroundings and I had been already eased off the gas as I approached the light. But, like the doofus that I am, I somehow got my one foot tangled up into the shoestrings of my other foot and couldn’t step on the break fast enough to stop immediately. By the time I completely grasped my situation, I used both entwined feet to just stomp on it and came to rest about mid-way through the intersection. The good thing in that case was that there were absolutely no cars at all around anywhere.
So, I can understand how crap happens and it isn’t always just distraction, selfish- or carelessness. Sometimes, people just mess up (for whatever reason), what with being human and all, and not infallible. And yes, to answer any future questions… I have been on the receiving end of an accident where someone else wasn’t at fault, as have many of my family members and loved ones. I certainly understand the anger and frustration, but at the same time, I figure “but for the grace of whatever higher power, go I.” That helps me to sleep somewhat better at night, knowing any of us can be on either end.
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And not to forget the most important part here: KCSuze, so glad to hear your dad is improving. So sorry for your awful experience and I hope that anyone who has read this thread will be a little more cautious with their driving henceforth. Sending good thoughts y’all’s way.
Hopefully you’ll realise that you’re dancing awfully close to the line of wishing death on someone, as prohibited per the sticky in this here forum.
Throwing in “general” as some sort of attempted disclaimer doesn’t change that.
Okay. Obviously you’re arguing from a 100% emotional position. I’m not going to engage anymore because I like to follow a general rule of not trying to argue with those who are coming from that position. They are typically so caught up in the emotional aspect, they refuse to see reason.
And I’d appreciate you refraining from wishing death on my future children.
Thanks.
Thanks for warning him, Coldfire, but I’m still gonna call him a contemptible fucking schmuck for the sentiment.
Nenee, you’re a contemptible fucking schmuck.
Daniel