Suicide Notes? NOT short!!

In My Humble Opinion
41

GRRR On reading why Kambuckta wrote…I inadvertently sent a 19 yr old boy to find my husbands body. The very next day he defaced his body with a “memorial” tattoo. On the one year aniversary he got another tattoo. He was a sweet boy who had was very good friends with someone who was older then he was…because he was older he had my husband on a bit of a pedastel. Finding my husbands body damn near killed that boy and it was a “nice clean” in-the-car-gassing.

He grew up in an awful hurry and had nightmares for years. All these years later he finds it hard to look me in the eye because he thinks it was his fault…EVERYONE will think it it is their fault!

42

You’re absolutely correct there calm kiwi. Suicide affects everyone, even those who might only be tangentially connected with the self-murderer. It casts a bloody awful shadow of self-doubt and responsibility over everyone who has crossed their path.

And you know what’s worse? It creates hatred towards the person who took their own life. In my experience, nobody really looks back fondly on someone who commits suicide, thinking, “the poor sod must have had it bad” or whatever.

They look back in anger and emnity. And rightly so, IMHO.

43

I wish I could ever get to the hatred stage but I never have.

But I really don’t think we are seeing it differently at all.

Suicide is a horrible, horrible thing. It takes away one persons “pain” (my husband was in no pain…he was throwing a hissy fit and it went too far) but inflicts more pain then the one who killed themselves could ever imagine.

I wish I could hate him.

This is probably wildly inapropriate Kambuckta but do you worry for your kids? I feel my child has been given a really bad example of “how to cope”, an almost built in example.

44

Oh fuck yes, I worry for my kids. They were all old enough at the time to totally understand the enormity of suicide. There was no way I could sugar-coat it with platitudes or excuses. And they suffered enormous guilt about his actions, that they had not been good enough to warrant him sticking around to see them grow.

Y’know, I hope they DO hate him for pissing off, because that is the least that they deserve. Feeling sorry for the dead is pointless, and only leads to self-recrimination. It’s the dead-man’s choice, and the dead-man’s decision, and the dead-man’s fuckup. Nobody else should have to wear that karma. Especially the kids.

IMHO, of course. :wink:

45

Oh you are not wrong!

My chap was a bub when it happened and I never wanted to do the “Surprise! this is what happened to your dad” day. We have never had a The One Time Only discussion about what happened, because I know his dad’s circumstance it was VERY important to me to have no secrets. We have gradually discussed it as he got older…fuck I can’t imagine how hard it was for you.

It makes me so angry that my child’s father has showed him that suicide is an option…because it ISN’T. It isn’t if you care even the teeniest bit about anyone.

You are soooo right, Suicides deserve hatred they have earned it. I will get there one day…but if my child ever uses his father as an excuse I will be so far beyond hating! (I WILL stop reading statistics!).

46

Thank you Yllaria, I think you really understand what I was trying to say in such a convoluted way. I don’t plan on ever following through with it, but it’s here, more present then ever and almost in “foregone conclusion” category. That scares me and the fact that my last attempt had me swallowing a whole new bottle of Prozac before I even realized it (which, of course, left me throwing up, leaning over the toilet and counting pills), that wants to make sure I have as many stop -gap measures as possible at my disposal. If this could have proved to be another one, I’d be glad of it. My arsenal these days are wearing thin.

Yes, it has been for sometime. I not only do it in letter form, but for the first time ever, I even cut loose on exactly how I feel in my journal. Even that, I used to hold back on, ya know, just in case it was found after my death and I didn’t want to hurt anyone more than I had already. Occasionally, they are all about being pissed off, but mostly they’re about me not ‘getting it’ and why things have to be the way they are. After 35 years of trying to do anything to make me acceptable to my mother, giving up was the only option left. And that’s how it feels about this. I am fighting it though and it’s why I posted it here. I didn’t want just a bunch of sympathy and pats on the back. I truly wanted people’s opinion on whether or not ‘notes’ helped. However, I was naive to think I could get passed the raw emotions of those who’d been there to the real meat of my question. It’s been incredibly frustrating.

This has never been suggested to me and I certainly wouldn’t have thought of it on my own. Right now, therapy seems to be all about purging bad stuff. But, I am usually all about making others feel comfortable and being overly polite, etc., etc., blah, blah (why yes, I’ve also been a member of Co-Dependence Anonymous). So, that would be right up my alley and I’d love doing it. It would make my own day brighter. Therefore, thank you so much for the suggestion. I might even begin to put that into practice today. :slight_smile:

Thank you so much. It’s appreciated more than you’ll ever know.

47

I just wanted to say that what all you wrote moved me to tears. It very closely does parallel my history and, as always, to know others have been there and come out on the other side is reassuring, although painful to understand how hard it is for folks that have had it even worse than me.

{{{HUGS}}}

I won’t go into tons of details here because I doubt that it would do any good to those who seemed to have missed the specific point of my query, although I’m thankful (and feel less stupid) for those that have. I get it now, that not everyone believes my motives are pure, that this isn’t attention whoring or that suicides don’t deserve anything but contempt or that they’re selfish cowards. That’s why I tried to explain I knew that in advance, just as I understand the devastation it causes no matter what, no matter how ‘helpful’/‘thoughtful’ you try to be and that those stages of grief, hatred, helplessness, blame and why may not ever be overcome. I hoped we could get passed that, to help me see if I could do something for those left in my mother’s wake. I do agree again now, that it wouldn’t make nary a dent with her or them. As for bringing up the ex and my petty feelings toward him, I didn’t mean to add that in the first place or be so flip, it was just one of those times when I was on a really manic down-swing and couldn’t refrain from spewing. I’m sorry for introducing such nonsense into the discussion.

Lastly, I looked up 2 threads (since you were interested – but like I always do, they are incredibly LONG-assed)… the first goes some of the way towards explaining my mother, dad (and maybe my aunt, I don’t remember), our relationship and her attitudes. Ugh. The second was about my most recent hospital stay debacle (and I do think you posted to that one, but I’m not sure and if you’ll forgive my tiredness for not re-reading it – it’s pretty draining and depressing). There are plenty more threads I’ve started around the theme of suicide, but back then, as a newbie, I was too afraid to be up front that it was about me and not for my ‘friend’.

Anyway, I’m so thrilled to here that you’ve fought your demons and are winning. That you’re doing things (oh man, Paris! – I’m so envious) you never thought again possible. I’ve had two spurts in the last 8 years where I’ve had a reprieve… once when I just seemed to miraculously get well, for no reason, for almost a year too, sans meds. As soon as it started to slide, I went back to my regime and that was my last psych visit long-term. I couldn’t stop the slide. Secondly, was during the affair. I was able to do all the moving on my own, take care of my own business and get out every. single. day. 'Course that evaporated when all hell broke loose, but then it was exhilerating, liberating and self-esteem producing. I want that, the old me, again, just better.

I think you understand. Especially when others don’t, or as you said, over-simplify, look at things black and white or see it only from one perspective. Thank you for sharing and empathizing.

As to my writing skills, you flatter me, which I can always feel grateful for when I’m stuck on everything negative. However, the biggest improvement I could use would be a really strict editor. :wink: I’m not even a greeting card author, so I suppose I’ll continue my day job as agoraphobic until I get that kicked again. I just hate giving up on wanting to teach too. It was such a passion of mine and I bet you were awesome at it. But I don’t think I’d ever be stable enough and I wouldn’t want to be a bad influence. They’re so impressionable at that age (junior high – that’s what I wanted, can you believe it? – I really am a masochist at heart), I just don’t feel I could ever take the chance.

Regardless, I’m rambling now. If you ever need to talk, my email is in my profile. I’m blessed for what you’ve given me. I’ll do my best to keep it close to my heart and think of it often. Unfortunately, those positive things seem to be one of my worst traits to buildon. Thank you again.

48

I also appreciate you sharing your painful story. I know that no matter how well I could ever plan this out or how good (if that’s applicable) my intentions, in the aftermath it would matter squat. What I hadn’t considered though were tangential people in my life, like acquaintances, neighbors, ex co-workers, etc., being effected (damn it – is it “e” or “a”? – no matter how hard I try, I can never remember straight) by the “Why didn’t I see it coming?”, “Why couldn’t I stop it?” syndrome. Because I am so straight forward. I never wanted to be one of those people who seemingly led a perfect life then up and offed themselves, leaving everyone scratching their heads in amazement.

And I always shared (my mental health problems) in case it would help someone else. So, I didn’t think about those further outside the realm and I should have. I do know that it’s been just one of many integral reasons for me not wanting children… like I might be passing on some sort of warped ‘legacy’ that they feel doomed to repeat. I even worry about that now with my bestfriend. Also, I know he’ll think, that despite super human efforts, it will still somehow be his fault and that he should have been able to prevent it. I HATE knowing that, which is another factor in having held on this long.

Again, this was a hypothetical ‘in case’, because I don’t always trust myself (see previous last reference to my bizarre suicide attempt when I apparently had some out-of-body experience) and wondered if anything left behind after the fact would do any good or help. I don’t mean to belabor the point, but that was what I was getting at. Or trying to. But as others have pointed out, it would be useless due to the circumstances.

And to address this…

I certainly understand why you wish you could hate your husband. It would go a long ways toward helping you move passed it and I pray that comes for you someday soon. But unlike him, I’m not in this position after some fleeting moment of despair or spite. This is ongoing and may well be for the rest of my natural life. Sometimes, and the consequences to others, is more than I can bear.

In conclusion, I hope your son never thinks that suicide is an appropriate ‘option’ because of his father’s actions. I’ll respectfully disagree on whether it is or is not for others. However, if hatred is appropriate for those remaining, than I would never begrudge them whatever they need to cope and move on. I wish you and your son only the best and am very sorry that it’s been something you had to go through and survive.

Thank you for telling me your experience. I pray I’m learning lots from all this, no matter how difficult it may be for me. Godspeed.

49

You said:

Well, in all my four bazillion therapy visits, I’ve tried so very hard to eradicate that. With positive self-talk and cognitively admitting that there’s been no way under the sun that I could have been the one to hold accountable, all to no avail. God, for years I drove back and forth several hours a day, just listening to this kind of encouragement and it still can’t penetrate my thick skull. I swear, even though I wasn’t alive at the time, I would believe I was somehow involved with Kennedy’s assassination and the Holocaust. But I’m not giving up the battle just yet. Next appointment is soon, and Joe (my psychologist) will once more try to pound some sense into me. I get so tired of repeating that I’m trying, but I really am.

::: sigh :::

About the bestfriend (who, just coincidentally, happens to be my soon-to-be ex-husband), I KNOW he loves me, with every fiber of his being. He has been the one to keep me here, however, at whatever times, even tenuously. And that’s why I feel I’m killing him over this. What he’s been through. Oh, it’s been back-breaking, degrading shit. He, who’s never known not to be confident, has lost that. He’s gained an enormous amount of weight, to the point that it’s seriously damaging his health, as a way to cope with this when he so no other way to do it. He pretty much gave up his relationship with his son to be the only one who’s stood by me. Plus, I’ve financially ruined him. So, I hope it at least makes sense that I don’t wish to continue to put him through more of the same. He’ll never ever want to be involved with any woman again for fear that we’re all crazy (I am, his ex-wife, his only other close girlfriend, my mother, his mother, his grandmother, etc.) and I want him to be happy. To find true, real love that’s not based on duty or obligation or loyalty. He deserves so much more. I hope that makes some sense. Believe it or not, it does in my world. :frowning:

Briefly (heh), I am, for once, trying to make myself top priority. I’ve never done that before ever and I almost feel like someone who’s survived some horrible accident and has to re-learn everything all at once. Like talking, eating and walking. Although that has to be infinitely worse, attempting to re-train my brain feels equivalent to changing the tides or putting tooth paste back into the tube. But now, I am aiming for that. I want to be optimistic about the outcome. Maybe that should be my new mantra.

I never ever thought about causing anyone physical pain in the event of my demise. :smack: Sometimes I really can’t see the forest for the trees, so thank you for bringing that up. It certainly will add another dimension of why NOT to. That and it coming across that I’m “lashing out at them”. Egads this is so freakin’ complicated.

< insert another exasperated sigh here >

I see where you were coming from about cutting off all ties. When I’m befuddled and all that other stuff (depressed, OCD, bi-polar, yadda, yadda), I can be quite dense. Also, I can never get passed the fact that she IS my mother and a primal part of my brain says she’s supposed to love and care for me like I do her. Now I know that’s realistically not true, but it Is why I’d probably never be able to break things off completely. So, since that’s my decision, I’ll have to deal with the occasional consequences of a phone call or visit. Hell, what I’ve broken it down to in the past year has been torture, but necessary and I have dealt with it the best I could and with what she’s dished out with the proverbial grain of salt. My therapist thinks that as long as I hold those boundaries firm, I can keep some minimal contact. Definitely when I’m several states away, won’t have a car and she’ll be too cheap to fly (me, I’ll just be too broke).

You are right about my dad and aunt, although I can’t help feeling that way about him. My aunt is intelligent and knows much better, not to mention she has only gotten herself this embroiled over the last 20 years. Before, she knew my mother was nuts and steered clear. However, she has tons of insecurity and co-dependency problems too, and at this point, feels to enmeshed and like she can’t back out to change. So staying and being a “yes” man is easier than fighting it. My dad (actually, my step – don’t know the biological one) is different. In the thread I linked to for Zoe, I explained some of why he is the way he is. Armed with only a sixth grade education, dirt poor growing up, an abusive and cheating first wife that divorced him, then to a sister who took care of him like a mother, to his second wife (13 years his junior) that was even more controlling, abusive and cheating, he’s been inculcated no other way.

He truly doesn’t understand love and that my mother doesn’t even remotely feel that way towards him. He’s nothing more than a house boy to her. Someone to clean up for them when they’re not there, do chores for their myriad animals and work for her company when she says after he’s done at his other full-time job. Oh, he also serves as scape-goat and patsy over everything. Fortunately for me, when I got sick, we finally resolved our differences (because before, I bought my mother’s party line since I was a child about how dumb and useless he was, needed to be told what to do and in general, just couldn’t be trusted with the most simple of instructions – you know, a blight on mankind and it was only her superior nature that kept him from sheer pathetic-ness) and forged somewhat of a bond. She’s done her best then to destroy it and has eroded it to some level, but I still worry. I want to keep him with me and protect him from such viciousness. Her constantly wanting to kick him out of the house makes me want to go on a rampage. Her reasons for NOT doing it makes me ill. But that is where I stand on that and I can’t help but want to save him, regardless of whether it’s my job or not. It’s been such an awful life for him and at almost 70, he deserves some peace finally.

Agreed on the clean-up and strangers business. As I said above, I never considered that before. I’m glad it’ll be added to my repertoire of negatives against suicide. Thank you.

I know I shouldn’t apologize again, but it does hurt me to bring up agonizing memories for others and to know I’ve done that, even inadvertently (although I should have – duh!), makes me upset with myself. Regardless, thank you for your care and being another person who is trying to help, not just me, but anyone, in any way they can. That’s such a wonderful trait.

I can’t say thank you enough or how sorry (I know) I am for your loss. I don’t want to do that to others and that’s why I am here.

50

I got a suicide text message on my cell phone last week. It’s had me a little screwed up since then.

That said, I find notes and messages to be, at the very best, manipulative. I knew this person had problems, but I knew they were problems I could not help him with. I feel very angry at the fact that he tried to lay a guilt trip, or at least, make me feel responsible for his choices. I no longer want to have anything to do with this person at all, for any reason.

Even a suicidal gesture is a cruel, selfish thing to do.

Robin

51

Well, then I’ll trot out the ‘agree to disagree’ thing. Perhaps it got lost in the shuffle. I won’t argue though, that it is the “ultimate in self-obsession” because when your brain chemistry can’t even let you function well enough to take a bath once in a month or step out onto your porch to get the mail or perform medical procedures on yourself that doctor should see, I can see why one would be a bit preoccupied. However, I thought I was doing a somewhat decent sorta balance by being concerned with others and trying to get all the help I need. Maybe not and I’m deluding myself again.

I’m sorry, I’m lost on this part. What “card” are we playing? Is this a way to trump one person’s miseries over the other? Hell, I’ll be the first to say that my problems aren’t shit compared to most… they’re not even real, in the since that they’re only in my head. Folks have to deal with EXTREME DAILY hardships. Homeless-ness, starving, broke beyond repair, cancer, autistic children, rape, wars. That’s what’s important. Unfortunately though, apart from volunteering and doing whatever else I can (which I won’t bring up – God, how shallow to toot one’s on horn), I’m not certain how I can focus on that instead of making myself well so I can help even more and consistently.

You think of suicide daily? Are you getting help? Are you safe? Do you have people to talk to and support you? I pray so. But I have an ex co-worker who was constantly in this state and although it fucked with her life (she missed work all the time, her depression was all over the charts and she tortured those who tried to do what they could frequently by taking it out on them – nothing was her fault and everyone else was responsible for treating her fragileness, financially and as their number one priority, no. matter. what.), all she did was bitch about. Didn’t get any psychiatric help, wouldn’t stay on her medications or seek changes when she was on them and they weren’t cutting it, didn’t read any self-help books or try to improve her situation in any way. So, what exactly is your point? I feel that, yes, “life sucks”, etc., etc., but one must be willing to help themselves and if they are definitely NOT willing then they have no right to criticize others. They can go ahead anyway, I suppose, if it makes them feel any better. But I’m doing what’s at my disposal to get the treatment I need, I certainly thinks that at least somewhat transcends a pithy remark about the situation.

And I believe there’s peace in death. You don’t. Okay. In my thinking, nothing would be better than this, but again, that’s just MHO.

[QUOTE]
Yes, just see how happy and healthy the friends and relations of suicides in this thread are.
[/QUOTES]

Duly noted, although I’d recognized that before (even in the OP, I think, but I’m no longer sure by now), I had no idea to the multiple extents and for that I’ll forever be grateful. I just can’t wrap my mind around how bad it must be despite trying. I think about losing my bestfriend/soon-to-be ex-husband and it almost sends me into a panic/despair that’s unfathomable. I also admitted I’d overlooked others on the fringes, as well as some specifics. But that’s why I’m doing this here, with intelligent people and thoughtful responses.

Somewhat. I’m glad for the ones who saw through all my meanderings to what I was really asking, but most (and I can certainly understand why) were more offering personal insights and anecdotes about the devastation and how it never goes away, along with all the questions and fears (like for their children). And, of course, as I suspected, a little bit of hatred directed at those of us who are in this position when faced with those who’ve actually dealt with it. All I can say to that, but it sounds trite and stupid even to me, is that I’m so very sorry and I wish that it never had to happen to anyone, on either side of the fence. Realistically, that will never be. But I AM sorry to all for that kind of loss, with all my heart.

That said, if someone is really out there talking, looking for the solutions to their problems, they are NOT the ones who just went ahead and did it and wreaked havoc on everyone else. They say that even those just seeking attention are looking for help, so wouldn’t it behoove those with the added knowledge to aim more consideration and answers than condemnation and anger? Not that I wouldn’t probably do any differently, but that’s what they encourage the suicidal to do… seek support, compassion, someone somewhere that cares, will listen. Even if it is on an internet message board. :confused:

52

I must be the most inept person in the world in asking questions.

::: SIGH :::

Once more (or twice or whatever), I was NOT asking if notes alleviate pain or make it easier. That part I understood from my very first suicidal thought, because I was able to extrapolate how I would deal with such a situation and I doubt I’d fare well.

What I did want to know was if it would ‘help’ in the sense of saving someone, by facing the truth of their actions, from another. I’ve already been convinced that, at least in my mother’s case, it wouldn’t because her ego is impenetrable. So, in the event that it ever happens, I won’t bother with “shedding any light”. She won’t change and they won’t listen and it’ll just be more proof positive that it was obvious I was crazy all along and she couldn’t have done anything anyway ever to fix me. Gosh, I hope finally that may get across what I was looking for. If not, I may just give up because I’m no longer in-exhaustable. I don’t know any other way to say it.

I do grasp the reasons for the hatred, no matter how long it continues or why. I have no disillusionment that anyone would worry that things had been that bad for me. Why would they, if they don’t now? I’ve known people in the exact same damn situation, almost identically, who think/believe/feel/say things that astound me. And THEY ARE THERE! Regardless, the people left behind are allowed to feel however they want or need to, especially to get on with their lives. Healing, if possible, is what is important, certainly even more so if there are children involved.

I’m terribly sorry that you’ve had so much of this affect your life. My heart goes out to your children and what all they must have thought then and now. It has to be one of the worst things ever to deal with. So again, I only wish you well that you never have to encounter this again and that somehow, eventually, the pain will be far enough away to become at least tolerable. Trust me, I’d take it all from you if I could.

However, I’d very politely and pointedly asked for people to refrain from making the “cowardly” comments. Anyone who’s been born has this argument almost since birth and it’s utterly a foregone conclusion that it is a deeply held belief. I’d never heard “self-murderer” before, but if the goal is prevention, I definitely think shaming someone, calling them names or degrading their feelings, would only be counter-productive. I see the attitude behind and certainly, for those who’ve been there, the need to reiterate the venom towards such an act. But, it’s just like Christians assuming they are actually people that have grown up in the USA that haven’t heard the gospel message of Jesus, it can’t possibly be true. So we know the above and that’s the reason I thought it necessary to request skipping it. As a matter of fact, I used to feel the same way myself and would trot out the tried and true “It’s a permanent solution to a temporary problem.” But just like the death penalty isn’t really a deterrent for someone driven that over-the-edge to murder, they probably aren’t considering those consequences at the moment. It may be sub-conscious, but not enough to discourage or dissuade what they’re on a mission to do. Similarly, knowing that someone would think I’m a chicken-shit, weak-minded coward, at that point, would matter not to me. I think I’d have bigger problems on my hands. Like, if I believed in the concept of hell, say. At least, that’s my assumption.

Lastly, I really am saddened that you and calm kiwi’s children went through this. I’m so glad I’ll never have any of my own, even though I still worry about the step-son I’ve not got to have much to do with and, most importantly, Mr. faithfool. So, I am so sorry. I wish healing for all, despite it not really ever being possible totally.

53

Oh my God! What happened? Are they well? Please say it was just a cry for help or an unsuccessful attempt. How are you dealing with what happened now? I’m so sorry because I have been on that side of the fence before, both in the case of being able to do something and not. Fortunately, either way, it didn’t happen. But you’re right, it definitely makes you feel distraught no matter what you do or is done. :frowning:

I’m even sorrier that this turned out to be the case with your “friend.” I’ve known people who say there are folks out there like that, but I suppose I’ve just never encountered them before. As I said earlier, you can’t blame anyone else AT ALL for your decision to commit suicide if that’s what you pick and it shameful to pass guilt along to anyone who couldn’t do anything to help anyway. Especially when all the problems are known, IMHO. Because the people in my life who know and choose to do nothing (or won’t/can’t/have given up/whatever), if they’re unable to make things better now, how on earth could they stop me if it had truly gotten THAT BAD?!?? This person sounds extremely disturbed and you are right that the healthiest thing you can do for yourself is to cut all ties permanently. Good for you, just wish it hadn’t turned out that way and he gets real help.

Considering I’m beginning to sound like a broken record, I’ll simply let those who feel that way continue to do so because I don’t think how I think will alter anyone’s opinion. Again, just due to the fact that I always try to offer as much information as possible for fear that it’s my fault I’ve left something out and the misunderstanding lies at my feet, I do realize that’s the standard belief. I humbly disagree and the gesture is sometimes necessary to get the help. But I digress and would like to add, one more time, that sometimes (again IMHO) the person feels like it is the LEAST selfish thing to do. However, I guess it’s like walking a mile in another’s shoes… I can’t completely comprehend what it would be like to be still alive after someone I love intentionally killed themselves, nor can they understand the true hell of whatever it was that finally made the act accomplished.

My, I’ve started one depressing conversation. Mods, if this should be moved to GD because of content, I understand.

Thank you. And MsRobyn, good luck in getting past that. I wish him mental health as well, for that sounds like the problem.

54

Damn coding and typos. What good does it do me to preview if I still can’t catch it? Argh.

Anyway, I have another question to add…

Since I got a lot of comments that I tried to avoid in the OP because everyone already knows the answer, I’d like to flip the coin.

For all those that believe that suicides are cowards and the like, what do you think of the people, who struggle daily with mental illness or whatever, are in terrible, terrible pain (whether it makes sense to you or not – will assume that for the purpose of this hypothetical) and ONLY stay alive so as not to hurt their loved ones?

They, theoretically, could wait in vain, even with help (medications, treatment, the whole nine yards), until they die at the natural age of 96, still miserable and hurting. Who, in that particular scenario, because they sure weren’t sticking around for themselves, would be considered the selfish ones? I’m truly curious as to y’all’s answers.

Thanks.

55

A few comments on “suicidal gestures” and the “selfishness” and cowardess" of suicide:

“Suicidal gestures” can also be fatal. You can kill yourself without realizing what you are doing.

Psychiatrists take these gestures very seriously. No one in his right mind tries to get attention by making a half-hearted attempt a suicide. It is a sign that the person needs help – not that the person is just craving attention.

If a person were suffering horribly from any physical illness and wanted relief from the pain, only the cruelest of people would label him “selfish,” – even though relief from pain is naturally a protection of the self. Even when you remove a piece of trash from your eye, you are being “selfish.” So the label is virtually meaningless.

I have had physical pain that was bad enough that if I had not known that I was going to get some relief, I would have chosen death. And yet the worse pain I have ever endured was mental anguish. It affects all parts of you.

Imagine a brain so physically impaired that you are unable to make reasonable judgments and think that your body is literally about to explode. Add to that the feeling that you have when something frightens you and you scream – only this time you don’t calm down after the scream. And you don’t know that what you are feeling is ever going to go away. You don’t know if you will be able to walk across the room normally. You don’t know if you will be able to put a coherent sentence together again. You are, mentally, a person on fire. Under circumstances like that, you don’t even have the mind to be “selfish.” All you have is a primal need to stop the pain – much like removing your hand from a hot stove.

That was the worst of it for me. It got that bad only one time. It was a bad reaction to the wrong medication.

But depression has come close. Feeling desolate is only one of several symptoms of depression. We are not talking about the blues. There is just no way to describe it.

I can certainly understand the anger of those of you who have had the suicide of a loved one happen to you. Or at least I understand why you are angry. But I don’t understand others who would sit in judgment on the decision of someone whose “decision maker” is not functioning normally through no fault of his own.

56

faithfool, I posted my comments without seeing your question! :slight_smile:

Thanks for letting me know how to contact you. That is much appreciated. I would offer the same, but I don’t check my email for several days at a time. If you ever need me, I check in here most days. Besides, there are lots of folks here who do understand.

Speaking of negative self-talk, you might consider not labeling yourself a “fool.”
(Just something I noticed.)

You remind me of me in another way. You apologize a lot when there is no reason. My husband and I came in recently from an overnight visit with my sister. Shortly after we entered the house, I heard my “beloved” bellow from one of the back rooms, “The cat has shit all over the house!” Without even thinking, I shouted back, “Sorry!”

Now I laugh when I think about it. But it is a good sign that I need to stop apologizing for everything. (That’s my fault, not his.) I’m working on it!

Calm kiwi, you and other survivors bring a perspective here that I cannot. Thank goodness you are posting!

57

Well, hon, I never said it would be easy - and I doubt anyone else would. Your constant apologizing is one of the things that makes me believe that your mother did abuse you - it’s a very common trait in those who are abused and neglected.

Clearly, at some point in your life apologizing for everything - including, I suspect, for your very existance - probably served some useful purpose in your life. It was a survival trait. At that point in your life it was probably a good thing. However, you aren’t at that point in your life anymore and you need a different sort of lifeboat for the troubled sea of life. I know that old, bright orange, rubber raft is very comfortable and famillar but what you really need is a good sturdy rowboat because that old raft is starting to leak and let you down.

Good!

If you need to vent we have both MPSIMS (which is poorly named, since a great deal of what’s here is niether mundane nor pointless) and the Pit. It’s not all sweetness and light around here, but you can get very up-front honesty and sometimes a brutal truth is much more valuable than a gentle lie.

Your pain is your pain - don’t compare it to anyone else’s.

My mother had a stroke and had to relearn how to talk and how to read. And she did. But it didn’t take her years and years to re-learn… so I would say that, comparing the two of you, you are, indeed, worse off than her. Mental illness IS a handicap, just as much as missing an arm or leg is a handicap. Just because you can’t see, just because you can’t point to an obvious hurt, doesn’t mean the hurt and the pain isn’t real. Yes, it’s “in your head” - it’s still every bit as real as any other hurt or injury/

You ARE attempting to re-train your brain. You probably DO have chemical imbalances. This is NOT easy. You probably will need help with this the rest of your life. How is that different from a diabetic who has to monitor his blood sugar and take insulin injections and watch his diet for his entire life? You have a serious, serious problem. Depression is a life-threatening illness, every bit as serious as a heart attack or cancer. You are trying very hard to deal with it. That alone makes you worthy of respect.

Whatever it takes to get you through the day.

To futher that analogy, someone in deep depression is like someone very nearsighted who can barely see the trees, let alone the forest. It’s like you’re down on your hands and knees looking for your glasses so you can bring everything into focus again. Until you do, everything is blurry and scary.

Yes, life can be like that at times. :slight_smile:

You’re welcome. I hope it does help.

I have some rather gruesome first-person accounts of such clean-ups, but I didn’t think it was necessary to get that in-depth.

Let me talk a little more about my sister.

A couple days after she died, when we had all finally managed to make the trip home for the funeral, a bunch of us were sitting around my parents’ kitchen and someone said “I never imagined she would be the sort of person who would do something like that!” Everyone else in the room look at each other, then almost in unison said “Oh, yes she was.”

My sister struggled with mental illness for at least 17 years. Possibly all her life. Struggled as you seem to be struggling. It really was a handicap for her. The phobias alone were severely limiting - she couldn’t drive a car, she couldn’t get in an airplane, she couldn’t cross a bridge or go under a tunnel. She had to hire someone to drive her to work (she was able to hold down employement most of her adult life) and if she traveled it had to be by train. Not that she was always like that - I do remember when she COULD board an airplane, and she went to Mexico when she was in high school. But something changed, I’m not sure when, and for most of her remaining life she could no longer do certain things the rest of us take for granted.

She did not, however, ever make a suicidal “gesture”. We knew she wouldn’t. It’s a strong family trait that we do not bluff or make threats, we act. And, indeed, there was no warning. She went to considerable trouble to make sure she would NOT be discovered and saved. After the police investigation (of course there was an investigation - if a physically healthy 34 year old woman dies it’s going to be investigated, especially someone who had held elected office and had actually made some real enemies) we found out that she had started to kill herself on two prior occassions, but had stopped NOT because she wanted to live but because she was afraid of being discovered and saved.

So, while it was shocking it was not unexpected.

Yes, there is anger in me towards my sister. However, there is a great deal of pity as well. I know she was in horrific pain. In her note she said “I’m sorry, but I can’t cope any more” Well, yeah, that’s sort of a given - if you’re killing yourself you certainly are NOT “coping”.

After many, many years I’ve come to understand things differently. Looking back over my sister’s life, I realize that she never was able to cope quite as well as many of us. Things that would roll off me really stopped her cold. So I express it as she “ran out of cope” rather than she “ran out of hope”. Her last year was full of stress and terrible occurances that would severely test someone mentally healthy, much less someone with less coping ability and long term clinical depression. Some of us are born with weak eyesight or poor hearing or legs that don’t work right - others of us seem to lack mental resiliance. That’s not a character flaw, any more than being blind or deaf is a character flaw. It’s just a fact of life you have to find a way to work around and cope with if you’re going to have a life.

I hate what my sister did, but I don’t hate her. I still love her and miss her very deeply, and always will.

I didn’t have a chance to help my sister in her final days. I won’t refuse to help someone else. She delibrately pushed everyone away and hid what she was thinking. You are reaching out for help. It gives me hope that you can survive this crisis. As for me… I am strong enough to carry a small fraction of your burden by listening to you, even if it causes old wounds to twinge. Don’t worry about me - I’ll be fine. Worry about you, and what you need to do to get past this.

58

Well yes, I should have been clearer about that. It is an unhealthy self-obsession. Regardless of the justifications about doing it for other people, it’s always about oneself.

It was a cheap shot and I apologize. I got unduly snarky.

Yes, yes, yes, and yes, thank you for asking. After several years of dealing with it my coping skills are pretty good, and I have very supportive friends and family. One day at a time, my friend.

Point taken and apology reiterated.

I suppose it’s a philosophical difference. Perhaps I just include in the definition of “peace” an awareness of the state, whereas “dead” is nothingness.

Tangentially but not unrelated, I went through a long period a few years back of deep emotional numbness. It was horrible, like being smothered under three feet of blankets. Frankly I’d rather have the pain.

It’s good to know we’re on the same page here, although this one I won’t apologize for carping about. As you will have noted the “they’ll be better off without me” statement is a sore point for me (and as you may remember from your reading is considered a warning sign and an indication of unhealthy and dangerous thinking, from a therapeutic POV). If people are spending the time to help you (generically speaking) get through the bad bits (even if they all seem like bad bits), the worst thing you can do is to demonstrate that they were wasting their time. And if they’re not helping you, the worst you can do is prove that they were right to ignore you. I find that being a contrary bastard is a great survival tool. :wink:

It’s understandable, considering how emotionally charged the subject is. It’s a little like asking “Is it better to put down an old dog by taking it to the vet or shooting it yourself?” You might get some objective answers, but you’ll also get a whole lot of upset people with still-tender emotional scars.

Sometimes a little tough love is what’s needed. I’m sorry you feel bad. Heck, I’m sorry I feel bad. Sometimes I feel bad that I feel bad, and sometimes I feel angry about it. Guess which helps me more? :wink:

To stray back on topic for a moment, if a friend was going to commit suicide and was going to leave me a note, I’d rather he or she just tell me what it would have said before they do anything. At least then I could ask questions, suggest alternatives, let them know how I feel, even just say goodbye. That last one alone counts for a lot.

59

Zoe, it is possible to make a half-hearted suicide gesture for attention. Many kids at my high school did it. They’d do something like slash their wrist, but do it very superficially so it bled, but not enough to kill them. Or they’d take an overdose of drugs, but not enough to be fatal.

That said, I am aware that some “gestures” end in death. Something in the plan doesn’t go right; someone gets home too late to help, or whatever. Likewise, I am also too aware of depression; I’ve suffered from it off and on for years. Currently, I am not on medication or in counseling; I find I feel better if I don’t do these things.

My friend is physically fine. I don’t know how he did it, and I don’t want to know, but there were some indications he wasn’t serious about it. First, he notified three people, including me. Second, he timed it so his wife would walk into the house. Third, this isn’t the first time he’s done this. I’m not sure how many times he has, but he’s learned that when things don’t go his way, he can get all the attention and sympathy he wants by doing this. He’s admitted as much to me.

As for me, I’m not distraught, I’m pissed at having been played for a fool. As I said, I’m no stranger to depression, and I know how crippling it can be. However, this was no cry for help. It was a flat-out attempt at manipulation. Now that I know what kind of a person he is, I want nothing more to do with him. He is mentally ill, but until he shows that he is ready and willing to get serious help, his is not a welcome presence in my life.

Robin

60

I couldn’t agree more. ANything worth saying in death is twice as much so in life - if you think your words truly are meant to help, I think it’s a lot more meaningful to get them straight from you, rather than reading a note. I’d rather know before you go, and have the chance to do whatever I felt I could, than get a note after, and wonder what I might have done to stop you.