Support Palestinian guerrillas.

[Henry_B]

Summa Summarum, as I wrote before:
Everyones duty is to fight the occpiers. In any country.
Do target, in first hand, on the officers of the occupying army.

(I consider Israel as a country accordining to the UN-boarders, not like a country that has an divine right to enlarge itself when ever, where ever it likes.
I consider the Israelian solidiers outside their own country as occupiers.)

If You disagree with the right to defend Yourself, Your motherland or the land where You are born, please make a list of the countries, races etc. that should not have this right?

[Saen]

*Originally posted by MC Master of Cermonies *
As I said before I was unware of the story (it may well be at B’tselem but there are several thousand deaths listed, so I may well of forgotten it).

really?

The second death you descibe is almost unheard of and I have never heard of that particular situation happening and considering I have read a break down of all the deaths (avaidable at B’tselem) since the start of the intifada, it leads me to beliedve you are misinformed or just lying.

Coulda fooled me.

Analysis has shown that the boy in question (in the video), because of his position could of only of been killed by delibrate targetting.

Targetted by whom?

The truth is the terrorism will never end til the occupation ends, you cannot expect the PA to make all the concessions. You have already recognized Israel has no right to be in the OT, so why doesn’t it get out?

Truth? So you do disregard all of the extremists calls for the death if Israel before the terrorism ends. And I do not know why they ont get out. But I do know that it is not vital to be done immediately to stop the killings. Only the terrorist themselves, or use of force will do that.

You cannot say that Israeli terrorism is some how better than Palestinian terrorism, despite the fact that the Palestinians have a much smaller population many more Palestinian non-combatants have died than Israeli non-combatants and I refuse to accept your view that they should just lie down and let Israel walk all over them in the interest of peace. I am not a pacifist and while not supporting Palestinian attacks on illegitamate targets I support their attacks on the IDF and Israeli military infrastructure as their cause (ending the Israeli occupation that is)even though they often choose to fight it in an illegitimate way is a just one.

You dont get it do you? You are not paying attention to a damn thing I have said about this issue. A whole post was about this very issue. Israeli non-combatants are the fucking targets. Your biased cites have not proven to me that Palistinian non-combatants are the targets. Proven collateral damage yes. Proven negligence yes. Murderous intent is, at best, only hinted at and details exacerbated. While the non-combatants who died are usually within touching distances of the bombers. Its an up close and personal thing to kill yourself and as many people as possible around you. And not a goddamn thing is hinted at on the intention or outcome. If you recall, those terrorists fucking brag about and take credit for those non-combatant deaths.

And occupation is not the same suicide bombers. And your attempt to say so is pathetic.

[MC_Master_of_Ceremonies]

*Originally posted by Saen *
really?
Coulda fooled me.

Ok, I geniunally disbelieved you, but I did not deny that Palestinians in some instances targetted chilren and I could of named you a worse one than the one you cited.

Targetted by whom?

allegations by the IDF have been made that the boy was targetted by Palestinian militants, I have seen their evidence and am unconvinced.

Truth? So you do disregard all of the extremists calls for the death if Israel before the terrorism ends. And I do not know why they ont get out. But I do know that it is not vital to be done immediately to stop the killings. Only the terrorist themselves, or use of force will do that.

You dont get it do you? You are not paying attention to a damn thing I have said about this issue. A whole post was about this very issue. Israeli non-combatants are the fucking targets. Your biased cites have not proven to me that Palistinian non-combatants are the targets. Proven collateral damage yes. Proven negligence yes. Murderous intent is, at best, only hinted at and details exacerbated. While the non-combatants who died are usually within touching distances of the bombers. Its an up close and personal thing to kill yourself and as many people as possible around you. And not a goddamn thing is hinted at on the intention or outcome. If you recall, those terrorists fucking brag about and take credit for those non-combatant deaths.

And occupation is not the same suicide bombers. And your attempt to say so is pathetic. **

You think that Amnesty, HRW and B’tselem are biased? I’m sorry but you will not find a human rights organization that represents your point of view. Considering that your asseration is arbitary and backed up by no evidence of any bias (just because B’Tselem maily operates in the OT, in no way implies that they hold a bias outlook especially when they have clearly stated the reasons for this) I am inclined to believe that bias to you means they don’t have the same outlook as you.

The arguments for ‘collateral damage’ could easily be used to justify suicide bomb attacks as I said before they are used to primarily attack off-duty soldiers who are one of the main users of buses in Israel. Both arguments are equally illegitimate.

Occupation is not the same as suicide bombing but the methods use to acheive it are.

I sincerly disbelieve that sucessful suicide bombers brag about anything and you have in no way offered any evidence that they do. There are plenty sources that you could find of Palestinians applauding the bombers, that is true, but it is in no way worse than Ariel Sharon describing an operation to kill a suspected militant that also killed 17 civilians (including 13 women and children) ‘a great sucess’. I could also Israeli find sites that applaud Palestian non-combatants deaths.

I am really sorry if you do not think that a Palestinian life is worth the same as an Israeli life but I do.

[Chumpsky]

*Originally posted by Daoloth *
**Nitpick: Says the Taliban. Most credible estimates run between 600 and 2,000 civilians total. That includes men, women, and children. **

Says the U.S. (By the way, the Taliban has never issued a statement, as far as I know, on the number of civilian deaths. That is sort of a nice, “either you believe me or you sympathize with the Taliban” jab.)

The most extensive study of civilian deaths was done by Marc Herold, who, using only mainstream western sources, meticulously went through and counted all of the civilian deaths. He estimates between 3,000 and 4,000 civilian deaths caused by bombing. And this is not counting all who died of starvation due to the bombing.

cite

[milroyj]

*Originally posted by MC Master of Cermonies *
Though they do kill children, I have never heard of a suicide bomber delibrately targetting children.

I know you said suicide bomber, but what about Palestinian terrorists in general?

Palestinian terrorists don’t target children? Really? Shooting them in their beds?

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/11/11/kibbutz.victims/index.html

How about targeting young girls?

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/10/30/mideast.violence/index.html

More attacks on Israeli children inside their home:

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/06/20/mideast/index.html

Murder of a pregnant woman by Palestinian gunmen:

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/06/08/mideast.violence/index.html

More Israeli teens killed by a Palestinian gunmen:

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/05/28/mideast/index.html

And, once again, killing a child, 5 years old, in her bed:

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/04/27/mideast/index.html

Sending rockets into a terror leaders vehicle, or into a terror nest in the OT, might kill innocent civilians, even children, and the death of innocents is very bad, but it’s not the fucking same thing as breaking into civilians’ homes and killing their children in bed.

In case you missed the difference, the Palestinian terrorists are the ones who are deliberately killing children.

[ExTank]

Ya know, as an ex-tanker (former U.S. Army 19K20), I have to say this about the people, regardless of age, who are throwing rocks at tanks full of people who may, if the pro-Palestinian faction is to be believed, seriously want to kill you just because you are who you are:

ARE YOU !@#$%&* NUTS?!

Speaking as a tanker, to those who would throw rocks:

1. You have zero chance of hurting us. But you might scratch the paint job. This annoys us.

2. Annoyed people with 60 ton vehicles and enough firepower to level a good-sized neighborhood is generally considered “a very bad thing.”

3. Especially when they turn on the radio and hear that a school, or a street market, or a shopping mall was just blown up and a “Single-Use Palestinian Freedom Fighter” was responsible.

Israel wouldn’t even be in the OT if it hadn’t had to fend off three wars of extermination. That, in the final analysis, is why they are there. In military terms, it may be called “strategic depth.”

And the fact that the Israelis have willingly negotiated peaceful settlements with and returned lands to former belligerents who decided to play nice and peacefully coexist with them completely cuts the legs out from underneath any pro-Palestinian position advocating violence as a means of resolution to the dispute.

If we have seen the last Palestinian terror attack, the last rock thrown, the last “peacefull demonstration” that didn’t end in riots and chants of “Death To Jews,” and all Palestinians played nice with their Israeli neighbors, I’d be willing to wager that they’d get most, if not all, of what they wanted within 5 to 10 years. Perhaps longer, because of the now almost bottomless antipathy between them.

Otherwise, the exchange ratio of bodies may continue to escalate to the terminal detriment of the Palestinian peoples.

Because a suicide bomber loaded with enough explosives to actually hurt a tank would be about as conspicuous, and maneuverable, as a pregnant cow.

And just as easy to machinegun into hamburger from a safe distance

Alternatively, you can just throw a rock. The net effect is just about the same, either way:

Tank & Crew: 1

Fanatic: 0

Nothing solved, nothing gained.

[Saen]

*Originally posted by MC Master of Cermonies *

allegations by the IDF have been made that the boy was targetted by Palestinian militants, I have seen their evidence and am unconvinced.

But you beeive the IDF did it without evidence?

You think that Amnesty, HRW and B’tselem are biased? I’m sorry but you will not find a human rights organization that represents your point of view. Considering that your asseration is arbitary and backed up by no evidence of any bias (just because B’Tselem maily operates in the OT, in no way implies that they hold a bias outlook especially when they have clearly stated the reasons for this) I am inclined to believe that bias to you means they don’t have the same outlook as you.

I do think B’tselem is biased. You see, I quoted from the website just what their agenda is. And when someone has an agenda they are not objective, nor are they willing to show all sides when it goes against that agenda. ANd I have yet seen where the any human rights quote you have given me, besides them, has said anything about murderous intent. They do talk about human rights viloation from negligence and over-aggression. And every HR group with any credibility, including Amnesty and HRW, backs up everything I said about the suicide bombers. You saying that I am making them all up?

The arguments for ‘collateral damage’ could easily be used to justify suicide bomb attacks as I said before they are used to primarily attack off-duty soldiers who are one of the main users of buses in Israel. Both arguments are equally illegitimate.

I have never heard that excuse from any of the terror groups who take responsiblity. And for that matter, every adult is a “soldier” in Israel.

Occupation is not the same as suicide bombing but the methods use to acheive it are.

I sincerly disbelieve that sucessful suicide bombers brag about anything and you have in no way offered any evidence that they do. There are plenty sources that you could find of Palestinians applauding the bombers, that is true, but it is in no way worse than Ariel Sharon describing an operation to kill a suspected militant that also killed 17 civilians (including 13 women and children) ‘a great sucess’. I could also Israeli find sites that applaud Palestian non-combatants deaths.

But you sincerely believe that their only targets are off duty soldiers and everyone else is collateral damage. Give me a break. And my fucking evidence is, that when a youth from the Al Aqsa Martyrs brigade blows his fucking guts out, along with as many people as he can around him, with strapped on explosives he did not make in his kitchen, Is all over the news and then representatives from that same group gloat over it and take credit.

I am really sorry if you do not think that a Palestinian life is worth the same as an Israeli life but I do.

Thats the second time you hinted at me being a racist or some kind of Palistinian hater. I have yet to say you were anti-Isreali or racist or even hinted at it. I will kindly ask you to stop such imature tactics at debate before we get into that shit slinging match. You have already tried the misspelled word tactic. And it doesn’t add to our discussion. It only takes away from it.

[Opus1]

Chumpsky:
[And this is not counting all who died of starvation due to the bombing.]

Right, that starvation that never existed under the Taliban. What about all those saved from starvation and murder through the ousting of a violent, repressive, barbaric regime? Or do those people not count?

[Saen]

And you also keep punding the drum about the “great success” from Sharon. If the US could put a smart bomb in Osmas lap and it kills all 500 of his children, I am sure you would have Bush being praised by all the leaders of the free world about it being a “great success”. You see, The great success to a father is when you take out the fucker who is trying to murder your children. You attempt to say he was happy he killed the children that was there. Only someone with his head in a dryer on full spin could see something as lopsided as that.

[Skip]

they are used to primarily attack off-duty soldiers who are one of the main users of buses in Israel

And here I call bullshit. Suicide bombers have absolutely no way of knowing if there are any off duty officers on a bus. Do they call the attack off if they don’t see any officers? Not likely. Next thing you’ll be saying that attacks on nightclubs ( like this one which killed 20 teenagers - CNN ) are justified because hell, they’re also used by off duty army officers…

[Latro]

One thing to keep in mind, when talking about IDF soldiers shooting children, is that this was intended all along.
They are placed in the front ranks in order that they will get shot.
This sounds harsh but it’s good publicity. The Palestinian ‘war’ has been, to a large extent, a campaign in grabbing media attention. Dating back to the period where they would hijack planes and hold the olympic team hostage.
Being able to show your dead children is a way of turning public opinion your way.

From when the first ‘popular uprising’ was organised, IDF soldiers have been deliberatly provoked in opening fire. These aren’t peaceful demonstrations.

True, rocks don’t have much effect against tanks. A squad of soldiers guarding a strategic point, however, can be severely intimidated when assaulted by a large mob of people (with gunmen possibly intermingling) and rocks do hurt and injure people. The slingshots, normally not mentioned but clearly visible in the videos, can be quite leathal.
Frankly, I wonder how many of us would be able to hold our fire.

So, yes, on such occasions children are shot. It is wrong that, apparently, there are now standing orders to shoot at them but one must ask who puts those children there in the first place?

[MC_Master_of_Ceremonies]

*Originally posted by Saen *
But you beeive the IDF did it without evidence?

Did I say there was no evidence the IDF did it? Apart from the strong circumstanial evidence (people in general do not fire on their own side), An opposing group of experts did indeed find the IDF responsible.

• think B’tselem is biased. You see, I quoted from the website just what their agenda is. And when someone has an agenda they are not objective, nor are they willing to show des when it goes against that agenda. ANd I have yet seen where the any human rights quote you have given me, besides them, has said anything about murderous intent. They do talk about human rights viloation from negligence and over-aggression. And every HR group with any credibility, including Amnesty and HRW, backs up everything I said about the suicide bombers. You saying that I am making them all up?

B’Tselem is made up of Israelis, who have been dedicated to finding and defusing the truth. They are hardly going to paint Israel in a worse light than it actually is. Yes the human rights groups cover suicide bombers, I don’t think I ever disputed that.

never heard that excuse from any of the terror groups who take responsiblity. And for that matter, every adult is a “soldier” in Israel.

Well it is an excuse that is often used along with others such as all Israeli men of age are required to serve as reservists, etc, etc. As I said before it is an illegitamate excuse, however Israeli excuses for military operations that kill civilians have been equally illegitamate.

[MC_Master_of_Ceremonies]

But you sincerely believe that their only targets are off duty soldiers and everyone else is collateral damage. Give me a break. And my fucking evidence is, that when a youth from the Al Aqsa Martyrs brigade blows his fucking guts out, along with as many people as he can around him, with strapped on explosives he did not make in his kitchen, Is all over the news and then representatives from that same group gloat over it and take credit.

You have not actually read what I said, no I do not believe that they just target soldiers, yes, they prefer buses because they prefer to kill soldiers but they’re more than happy if a few civilians get killed too. The thing is if you read any of the human rights groupsreports they debunk this as a legitmate reason, however they equally debunk the legitmacy of Israeli assaults.

Thats the second time you hinted at me being a racist or some kind of Palistinian hater. I have yet to say you were anti-Isreali or racist or even hinted at it. I will kindly ask you to stop such imature tactics at debate before we get into that shit slinging match. You have already tried the misspelled word tactic. And it doesn’t add to our discussion. It only takes away from it.

I have to say I do not accuse people of racism lightly, but after you implied that Palestinian children who mocked Israeli soldiers in some way deserved to die,I have to say I believe you are a racist.

[MC_Master_of_Ceremonies]

I’m sorry i have to say that I am disgusted in the way that some posters try to paint Israel as the victim of the occupation- they are not, they are the perpetrators.

[zwaldd]

If Palestinian terrorists did not retreat to civilian positions in the middle of an unresolved conflict, then there would be fewer civilian Palestinian casualties. If they want any sympathy from anyone with any sense, someone needs to teach this boys how to fight respectably. I won’t argue that they don’t have a cause because it’s not relevant to the discussion. Either expect the current method of fighting to involve civilian casualties and quit complaining about it, or establish a front line and face the enemy. Palestinians target Israeli civilians, and then hide among their own civilians. Cowardly. Ineffective. Irresponsible. Stupid. Worthless.

[MC_Master_of_Ceremonies]

Palestine doesn’t have an army, so they are never going to be able to fight a convential war.

Ignoring the manner in how the war is fought by both sides (pretty disgracfully), Israel should leave the OT, it’s as simple as that. Because at the moment the Palestinians have nothing to lose and are willing to try anything to get rid of an army that oppresses it’s people daily and indiscriminantly.

[zwaldd]

They have plenty to lose, they are just too brainwashed to realize it. They are trying nothing to get rid of an army. They are trying plenty to give Israel a reason to remain in their territories and kill every human shield Hamas cowardly props up around them.

And you don’t need an army to act like a man. If I’m one guy who’s had enough, I’m not going to kick my tormenter in the ass and then hide behind my neighbor’s kid like a worthless puss. I don’t care how futile my act is. And I’m certainly not going to kick my enemy’s KID in the ass and then hide behind my own kid. Drawing civilians into their fight is disgraceful.

If Hamas wants Israel out of the ‘occupied territories’, then Hamas needs to quit hiding in the occupied territories. Bomb all you want, just don’t forget that the enemy is going to follow you home. Israel is there because that’s where the terrorists and bomb makers are. Are Palestinians too retarded to make this connection? Maybe they need to be institutionalized then.

[Saen]

*Originally posted by MC Master of Cermonies *
**You have not actually read what I said, no I do not believe that they just target soldiers, yes, they prefer buses because they prefer to kill soldiers but they’re more than happy if a few civilians get killed too. The thing is if you read any of the human rights groupsreports they debunk this as a legitmate reason, however they equally debunk the legitmacy of Israeli assaults.

I have to say I do not accuse people of racism lightly, but after you implied that Palestinian children who mocked Israeli soldiers in some way deserved to die,I have to say I believe you are a racist. **

Well I’ve had about enough of this. I never fucking said they deserved to die. What I did fucking say was a child running at you with a rock has more cause of defence that a fucking child asleep in their bed or walking down the street holding their moms hand.

I can give you a hundred groups of Americans who just want to shoe the “truth” and who claim to have nothing but America’s interest at heart while they are so biased and undermining that they wouldn’t be concidered objectional but to a fucking moron.

[DSeid]

Deep breath, Saen.

It is entertaining how easily the Pro-palestinian side will call any one supporting Israel “racist”, yet screams foul when anyone suspects that any rabid or irrational anti-Israel sentiment is motivated by anti-semitism.

If Arab terrorism was exclusively motivated by the occupation then one would look back and see that terror attacks against Israeli citizens did not exist before 1967. Hmmm. Nope. Not so. Terror attacks against Jews in Israel/Palestine even predate the existance of the state of Israel. True, the Six Day War marked the end of organized state military attacks as a tactic against Israel, as that appraoch had proven itself a failure, and the ramping up of terror attacks as the prefered approach.

What the Palestinians have is everything to gain. Most polls of the Israeli public show broad acceptance of the concept of land for peace. Most Israelis want to see a functional peaceful Palestnian state next door, it is in their interest as well, what holds it up is that they are more concerned about safety. IF the PA even made an unsuccessful but good faith effort to control terror elements, then a state would be the Palestinians to gain quickly.

[patteeu]

*Originally posted by Lemur866 *
**Can I say that I’m sick and tired of the “desperation” defense for the terrorists? This implies that the situation was getting worse and worse, and that the terrorists were facing death anywaym, and so have decided to take a few of the enemy down with them.

But of course that is not true. The real purpose for the terrorism is to STOP the peace process, to shut down any possibility of peaceful coexistence. You know it, I know it, the Israelis know it, the Palestinians know it. The suicide bombings are carried out precisely BECAUSE Arafat was on the verge of a peaceful settlement. And that peace settlement was unacceptable to the terrorists, because it would have allowed Israel to continue to exist, but would have satisfied a large part of the Palestinian population and lowered their desire for the elimination of Israel.

The suicide bombers aren’t trying to make occupation of the West Bank too expenisive for Israel. They are trying to provoke the Israelis into retaliation, because that retaliation will radicalize the Palestinians further, which will make peace coexistence impossible, which will trigger a war against Israel, which will lead to the destruction of Israel, and the pushing of all the Jews into the sea.

Anybody who pretends it is about “desperation” is kidding themselves. **

You are correct on all counts except your suggestion that Arafat “was on the verge of a peaceful settlement.” He was indeed within a hairs breadth of a final peace settlement, but it was Arafat himself who scuttled the talks and then ordered the commencement of a 2nd intifada. Israel had made concession after concession and Arafat’s advisors recommended that he accept the final offer that was brokered during the final months of the Clinton administration, but he decided instead to return to the path of violence.

Other than that small detail, you are right on Lemur866.