Support Palestinian guerrillas.

[Shodan]

Clint in Wichita -

The favour of your attendence is requested in aPit thread.

I wish to offer you a warm welcome to the SDMB. Very warm. Particularly warm.

Regards,
Shodan

[MSU_1978]

One of the better editorials I’ve read about the Middle East is in this week’s US News- http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/021216/opinion/16edit.htm

Some relevant quotes (I hope I stayed under the recommended limit of quoting a source)

Long before 1948, 1967, Israeli settlements, and suicide bombers, there were murderous attacks in the Holy Land against the Jews who lived there. Palestinians wanted them out. Period. Once Israel was a reality, the Palestinian goal was to destroy the Jewish state first by war, then by terrorism, then by deceptions like that at Oslo, which–it is now clear–the Palestinians had no intention of honoring. Faisal Husseini, the former PA representative in Jerusalem, even described the accord as a “Trojan horse,” one more cynical step in the “war of independence and return.”

And it is both wrong and dangerous to sweep under the rug the true ends and purposes of the Palestinians. How else to explain a society that extols as heroes suicide bombers whose objective is to kill as many innocent civilians as possible? How to rationalize a society in which mothers appear proudly on TV to extol the virtues of their children who have become martyrs and urge their younger children to follow in the elder siblings’ path? What to say of a society where the entire religious establishment calls upon its faithful to hate Jews simply because they are Jews, where news of Israeli women and children being blown apart by yet another bomb is greeted with joyous street celebrations?

Read what Arafat’s ideological chief, Sakher Habash, one of the founders of Fatah, said: “[T]here can be no coexistence between Zionism and the Palestinian national movement . . . [Jews] must become citizens of the state of the future, the democratic Palestinian state.”

It is clear that the present Palestinian approach isn’t working. Stop the terrorism and get back to the table. Martin Luther King, Gandhi, and Nelson Mandela all changed the world with non-violence. Why not give that a try?

[MC_Master_of_Ceremonies]

*Originally posted by Saen *I disagree. Although I do not condone killing any children, even accidentally, there is a fundamental difference. Scenario: You and I are fueding. I walk up to you and shoot you but your child walks in front of the bullet and it kills both of you. Or, you walk up to me, with my family, and spray the whole room trying to kill everyone.

Unfortunately you seem woefully unaware of the actual situation in Palestine, at least the same number of Palestine child (as compared to delibrately targetted Israeli child deaths) deaths are the result of delibrate targetting by a criminal element within the IDF, furthermore the Israeli government is complicit in this as, despite promises to human rights groups, it does not investigate or prosecute the individuals involved. A large percentage of the Palestinian children killed are stone-throwers and protesters, in these situations children are fired at and killed, this policy again is entirely illegal as the stone throwers do not pose a threat to the soldiers lifes and peaceful protesters pose even less of a threat. It was recently revealed on Israeli radio that there is a standing order to shoot children who throw stones at armoured personnel carriers too which is completely immoral.

Better yet. Stories I read or heard about. The IDF, in seraching for snipers hiding in buildings possibly booby trapped, Demolishes the building and in the process brings down the ceiling on a bed ridden child they may or may not have known was there. Then you have a 5 year old girl asleep in her bed anda man walks up to her and puts a bullet in her head before going into the next room to kill her parents.

Sure in all cases the same result plays out. But there is a significant difference when we talk about intention. A significant moral difference

**Deaths like these (i.e children killed in demolitions)are the result of criminal neglience by the IDF because 1. quite often they don’t actually check the houses to see if there is anyone in there and 2. such demolitions are illegal and contravene several parts of the Geneva convention and in no way can be morally justified.

The second death you descibe is almost unheard of and I have never heard of that particular situation happening and considering I have read a break down of all the deaths (avaidable at B’tselem) since the start of the intifada, it leads me to beliedve you are misinformed or just lying. However simlair situations do occur but they are extremely isolated and they find their moral equivalency with the Jewish settlers who stand by roads in order to kill Arabs as they go by or Settlers who go to where the Arabs are collecting there olive harvest and shoot them for the crime of living in the ‘ancient Jewish homeland’. **

They can proclaim that Jesus is the Messiah too. But I was talking about the real world and how things work today. If Sharon tried that his party would be outraged. The government would collapse instantly and Netanyahu, or a more radical extremist will be in power and the Settlers wouldnt have to even bother packing. You say the palistinians cant even think of accepting anything less than 100%. The Israelis can’t accept anything less than an agreed ceasefire. You think we have it bad with terrorism? They have lived with it for generations, and ‘compromise’ is anathema when it comes to terrorists. They risk their children and loved ones daily. Not knowing if they will be home that night. Palistinians know to batten down the hatches only after a terrorist attack happens or if there is a weapons shop in the attic, or worste case being near a target.

**The settlers have to leave, I’m sorry but the policy of moving these people to the OT is morally repugnant and extremely provactive. I’m sorry to use the Nazi analogy as usually such things have no place in discussions like these but this situation is analogous: Would you allow the German settlers, who settled in Poland during the second world war under the policy of Lebensraum to remain or have any property rights after the end of the conflict? No you would not. The settlers presence in the OT is an anathema and an obstacle to peace, and there is no way that anything less than there complete removal from the OT would be needed for peace.

The Palestinian demand for the West Bank and Gaza are alot less than 100%, in the orginal 1948 UN partition they were given 78% of the former mandate,but they lost this due to the actions of Israel and the surrounding Arab countries. You have to realize recognising Israel is a huge compromise to them, as 50 years they were the vast majority in the area only to forced out by Jewish settlers.

IDF policy is nothing less than state-terrorism, Israel has no right to have occupied the Gaza and West Bank for so long and they must recognize it is the occupation that is fuelling the curent wave of terrorism. The Human Rights Watch report on suicide bombers found that, beacuse of his policies, Ariel Sharon held partial responsibilty for the attacks.

The Palestinian situation is even less certain than the Israeli situation: 60% of their children are suffering from malnutrition as the result of the occupation, they know that if they venture outside after curfew there is agood chance they will be summarily executed by the IDF, they are forced to live in ghettos in their own countries, etc., etc.

Until Israel ends the occupation, though I feel sympathy at a personal level for the victims of Palestinian terrorism, I do not feel a collective sympathy for Israel as it is as a result of their actions that it happens.**

[MC_Master_of_Ceremonies]

*Originally posted by Shodan *
I think you are confusing cause and effect here. The suicide bombings and other terrorist incidents increased after the rejection of the land-for-peace deal by Arafat. Why? Because the radical element of the Palestinians did not want any peace with Israel that recognized Israel’s right to exist. The suicide bombings and terrorist acts were and are designed to provoke the Israelis into cracking down on the PA. The idea is to radicalize the Palestinians into an all-out war of destruction against Israel.

If there was no occupation the level of terrorism would rapidly decrease and eventually die away. Israel has no right to be in Gaza and the WB, so it can expect resistance until it stops oppressing the people there and withdraws. If it is unwilling to offer a fair settlement, it is hard to believe it truly wants peace. The settlments and oppression are designed to provoke the Palestinians so that Israel can justify its contiuned occupation as it has territoral designs on the area.

(Incidentally, if we are going to get bogged down about the 97% part of the Israeli offer, I will withdraw the figure as a specific, and simply assert that the offer gave the Palestinians most of what they claimed they wanted, and involved more concessions by the Israelis than by the PA. Much more

The offer was rejected, because it didn’t give the PA everything that they wanted. The radical elements of the PA wanted what they do as a basis to attack Israel and destroy her, which is the rest of what they want. IMO, the radical elements of the PA see the destruction of Israel as their Final Solution to all their problems. Hence their rejection of peace, which would not further that goal.)

As I have said before the offer was grossly unfair (it was nothing approaching 97%), though it was the largest one so far saying it should of been accepted is what is known as a ‘false compromise fallacy’. The PA made huge concessions, it virtually gave up the right of return for the millions of refugees, it gave up any claim to land that 50 yeras earlier where given to it by the UN

Well, no. Israel was established by UN mandate. Most of the land in question was bought and paid for. Most of the rest was obtained when Israel was attacked by her neighbors, and is held by right of conquest.

Before 1948, Jewish settlers had control of just 8% of the land in the mandate (this includes Arab land leased to Jews), also there is no such thing as a right of conquest and the UN has recognized that land obtained in war is inadmissable.

[MC_Master_of_Ceremonies]

Just to repeat, what I said in the pit in case there is any misunderstanding:

Anyway, just for the record in this thread I was no way supporting Palestinian terrorism, however I do believe that Israeli stae-terrorism is equally abhorrent and should be condemned also

[Chumpsky]

Originally posted by Shodan *
** That offer [of a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip] was made - and rejected. That’s why it is so hard.*

When?

[Saen]

*Originally posted by MC Master of Cermonies *
Unfortunately you seem woefully unaware of the actual situation in Palestine, at least the same number of Palestine child (as compared to delibrately targetted Israeli child deaths) deaths are the result of delibrate targetting by a criminal element within the IDF, furthermore the Israeli government is complicit in this as, despite promises to human rights groups, it does not investigate or prosecute the individuals involved. A large percentage of the Palestinian children killed are stone-throwers and protesters, in these situations children are fired at and killed, this policy again is entirely illegal as the stone throwers do not pose a threat to the soldiers lifes and peaceful protesters pose even less of a threat. It was recently revealed on Israeli radio that there is a standing order to shoot children who throw stones at armoured personnel carriers too which is completely immoral.

Actually, I would like a cite about all of these assertions. I have looked everywhere for the radio revelation, but I guess google, yahoo, and alta isn’t omiscient. Molotov cocktails, stones, protests. How is that equivilant to a child being targeted and blown away just because they are sleeping or walking down the street? I condemn all killing of children from any side. But you cannot , with a straight face, say one is the same as the other.

**Deaths like these (i.e children killed in demolitions)are the result of criminal neglience by the IDF because 1. quite often they don’t actually check the houses to see if there is anyone in there and 2. such demolitions are illegal and contravene several parts of the Geneva convention and in no way can be morally justified.

Hmm. If the house is booby trapped, how can they check the house? And where is it illegal to demolish a house holding a wanted combatant when forcible entry is otherwise suicide? That was the claims of the IDf, and although I was not there, unless there is proof that they were lying then I connot assert that they were unless I was biase.

The second death you descibe is almost unheard of and I have never heard of that particular situation happening and considering I have read a break down of all the deaths (avaidable at B’tselem) since the start of the intifada, it leads me to beliedve you are misinformed or just lying. However simlair situations do occur but they are extremely isolated and they find their moral equivalency with the Jewish settlers who stand by roads in order to kill Arabs as they go by or Settlers who go to where the Arabs are collecting there olive harvest and shoot them for the crime of living in the ‘ancient Jewish homeland’. **

Well I guess B’tselem isn’t omniscient either. Maybe you should broaden your information resources rather than having all of your eggs in one basket so to speak. Just an example. And the situations are not isolated. How many Israeli children where holding rocks or mock threatening the Palistinians before they died. When a “martyr” kills an oblivious child, that child is a target. Still dont see any difference?

**The settlers have to leave, I’m sorry but the policy of moving these people to the OT is morally repugnant and extremely provactive. I’m sorry to use the Nazi analogy as usually such things have no place in discussions like these but this situation is analogous: Would you allow the German settlers, who settled in Poland during the second world war under the policy of Lebensraum to remain or have any property rights after the end of the conflict? No you would not. The settlers presence in the OT is an anathema and an obstacle to peace, and there is no way that anything less than there complete removal from the OT would be needed for peace.

Im sorry you used the nazi anaology too. Germany was defeated by force and surrendered all rights to any “occupation” or any gains from the war. Israel has not. I never said Israel has a right to be there. But compared to nazis they have more. And again, you are comparing occupation to deliberate targetting and execution of civilians. As you said, the OT have been occupied for 50 years. It is noy urgent that they leave immediately. It is, however, urgent that a cease-fire be there before any other action is taken.

The Palestinian demand for the West Bank and Gaza are alot less than 100%, in the orginal 1948 UN partition they were given 78% of the former mandate,but they lost this due to the actions of Israel and the surrounding Arab countries. You have to realize recognising Israel is a huge compromise to them, as 50 years they were the vast majority in the area only to forced out by Jewish settlers.

IDF policy is nothing less than state-terrorism, Israel has no right to have occupied the Gaza and West Bank for so long and they must recognize it is the occupation that is fuelling the curent wave of terrorism. The Human Rights Watch report on suicide bombers found that, beacuse of his policies, Ariel Sharon held partial responsibilty for the attacks.

The Palestinian situation is even less certain than the Israeli situation: 60% of their children are suffering from malnutrition as the result of the occupation, they know that if they venture outside after curfew there is agood chance they will be summarily executed by the IDF, they are forced to live in ghettos in their own countries, etc., etc.

Until Israel ends the occupation, though I feel sympathy at a personal level for the victims of Palestinian terrorism, I do not feel a collective sympathy for Israel as it is as a result of their actions that it happens.**

I have a few questions then.

1. Would the Palistinian children fear curfews if a pro-active cease fire was initiated by thier leaders. (meaning; open investigations of terrorist attacks and a non-revolving door arrests of terrorist suspects.)

2. Would the IDF destroy the infrastructure if they did not have to go into the territories to hunt down “martyrs” and their cohorts, who is harbored by the majority of the Palistinians and their leaders?

3. Do you think it is preferable for the situation to stay as is over an agreement that does not grant complete unnocupation of the territories?

[Chumpsky]

*Originally posted by Saen *
1. Would the Palistinian children fear curfews if a pro-active cease fire was initiated by thier leaders. (meaning; open investigations of terrorist attacks and a non-revolving door arrests of terrorist suspects.)

Yes.

2. Would the IDF destroy the infrastructure if they did not have to go into the territories to hunt down “martyrs” and their cohorts, who is harbored by the majority of the Palistinians and their leaders?

Yes.

**3. Do you think it is preferable for the situation to stay as is over an agreement that does not grant complete unnocupation of the territories? **

If the cost of Israeli expansion into the occupied territories is decreased, the occupation will continue to expand.

[zwaldd]

Chumpsky, why do you think Israel oppresses Palestinians? Are they just a mean and barbaric society? Palestinians are surrounded by sympathizers. How come nobody helps them?

[Chumpsky]

*Originally posted by zwaldd *
Chumpsky, why do you think Israel oppresses Palestinians? Are they just a mean and barbaric society?

They want the land.

** Palestinians are surrounded by sympathizers. How come nobody helps them? **

Israel has a very powerful protector.

[Daoloth]

*Originally posted by Saen *
**Interesting assertion. Anyone know if there is a cite for something like that? But thats besides the point. The US killed more Afghan children than died in 9/11. **

Nitpick: Says the Taliban. Most credible estimates run between 600 and 2,000 civilians total. That includes men, women, and children.

[Shodan]

Chumpsky, Israel already has the land.

[zwaldd]

*Originally posted by Chumpsky *
They want the land.

What are they waiting for? Why don’t they just take it and be done with it? And if they just want land, why did they return the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt?

** Israel has a very powerful protector. **

I don’t mean ‘why don’t they help Palestinians bomb Israel’, I mean why don’t they help Palestinians build a functional society?

[MC_Master_of_Ceremonies]

*Originally posted by Saen *
Actually, I would like a cite about all of these assertions. I have looked everywhere for the radio revelation, but I guess google, yahoo, and alta isn’t omiscient. Molotov cocktails, stones, protests. How is that equivilant to a child being targeted and blown away just because they are sleeping or walking down the street? I condemn all killing of children from any side. But you cannot , with a straight face, say one is the same as the other.

I say exactly that, elements of the IDF are just as bad as Hamas and the al-Aqsa Matyrs Brigade. Are you delibrately trying to waste my time by asking for a cite? There is a huge wealth of information that can be accessed by googling. Go to any human rights site and you will find this information. How can you rightly argue your corner when you know so little about the conflict?

On the criminal element within the IDF and the Israeli refusal to investigate that element:

“This killing appears to have been entirely unprovoked. Israel must investigate all cases where deadly force has been used against unarmed civilians, especially in circumstances that are highly questionable at best.”

I]Hanny Megally, executive director of the Middle East and North Africa division of Human Rights Watch * [http://www.hrw.org/press/2001/02/israel0214.htm

Israeli policy towards protesters:

Israel showed repeated use by Israeli security forces of lethal force in situations where demonstrators posed no threat of death or serious injury to security forces or others. In situations where Palestinians did fire upon Israeli security forces, the IDF showed a troubling proclivity to resort to indiscriminate lethal force in response.

http://www.hrw.org/press/2000/10/isr-pa1017.htm

Examples of Palestinian minors casulaties for the last month (not including Palestinian minor confirmed combatants):

11 November 2002
Nafez Mash’al, Two year old, from Rafah, killed by IDF gunfire in Rafah, in the south of The Gaza Strip. Did not participate in fighting
Muhammad Abu Naja, age 8, from Rafah, died of wounds inflicted by IDF gunfire in Rafah, in the south of The Gaza Strip, on 17 October, 2002. Did not participate in fighting

13 November 2002
Hawamed al-Masri, age 2, from Rafah refugee camp, killed by IDF gunfire in Rafah refugee camp, in the south of The Gaza Strip

19 November 2002
Ihab a-Zaqta, age 16, from Tulkarm, killed by Border Police undercover unit gunfire in Tulkarm, The West Bank

20 November 2002
'Amru al-Qudsi, age 13, from Tulkarm, killed by IDF gunfire in Tulkarm, The West Bank

22 November 2002
Muhammad Balu, age 11, from Jenin refugee camp, killed by IDF gunfire in Jenin refugee camp, The West Bank. Did not participate in fighting

25 November 2002
Husam Khalil al-Faqih, age 8, from Nablus, killed by IDF gunfire in Nablus, The West Bank

30 November 2002
Hatem Razek 'Agly, age 16, from Gaza City, killed by IDF gunfire in Gaza City, The Gaza Strip. Did not participate in fighting

continued in next post…

[MC_Master_of_Ceremonies]

Sorry all the deaths come from B’Tselem, detailed lists in the statistics section:http://www.btselem.org/

Israeli radio reveals IDF policy towards stone throwers:

OCCUPIED JERUSALEM (IAP News) - The Israeli occupation army has issued
unwritten instructions to its soldiers ordering them to shoot and kill
Palestinian children throwing stones on Israeli tanks and armored personnel
carries, Israeli radio indicated.
The Israeli radio said instructions stipulated that soldiers should treat
stone-throwers on equal footing with gunmen opening fire on Israeli forces,
meaning that soldiers should shoot and kill the stone throwers.
The radio said the instructions had been in effect for some time but that it
was the first time they were spelled out formally.
The new instructions were implemented in the Gaza Strip early this morning as
Israeli soldiers manning armored personnel carriers shot dead two Palestinian
children in Rafah at the southern edge of the Gaza Strip.
One of the children is a 11 year old boy identified as Thaer al Ghoul. The
other is fifteen-year old boy.
Four other children were wounded and hospital sources said all of them were
listed in serious condition.
The Israeli state-run radio said the soldiers opened fire on the kids who
were throwing stones on the huge Israeli tanks, killing two of them and
seriously injuring five others.
Meanwhile, Palestinian leaders are increasingly identifying the situation in
Palestine as slow-motion genocide of the Palestinian people.
On Wednesday, Palestinian Authority official Sa’eb Ureikat appealed to the
international community to intervene “before it is too late to stop the
Israeli genocide against our defenseless people.”

“We call on the world community to move quickly to stop this genocide against
our helpless and defenseless people before it is too late. We are facing a
war of genocide by the Israeli death machine.”

article alsoavaidable at:http://www.palestinecampaign.org/archives.asp?xid=1014

B’Tselem’s report on the IDF’s “trigger happy policy”:

http://www.btselem.org/English/Publications/Summaries/Trigger_Happy_2002.asp

Examples of criminal elements within the IDF delibrately targetting children:

Sami Fathi Abu Jazzar died on the eve of his 12th birthday after being shot in the head by a live bullet fired by Israeli soldiers into a crowd of mostly primary school children. The shooting took place in the aftermath of a stone throwing demonstration. Six other children were injured by live fire in the same incident. Amnesty International delegates were present in the crowd at the time and concluded that the lives of the soldiers were not in danger.

http://www.amnesty.ie/news/2002/iot1.shtml

The incident in which IDF fire killed 12-year-old Muhammad Jamal Muhammad al-Dirra also appeared to be a case of indiscriminate and illegal use of force based on the accounts of eyewitnesses. At around 7 a.m. on Saturday September 30, the day after the clashes and killings in Jerusalem, demonstrators began to gather at the Netzarim junction, where Gaza’s main north-south road meets a road connecting the Netzarim settlement to the Karni border crossing and where an Israeli army post guards a Jewish settlement of about sixty families. For several hours the crowd threw rocks and stones and the IDF intermittently lobbed tear-gas canisters and fired rubber bullets and plastic-coated metal bullets in return. According to Talal Abu Rahmeh, a Palestinian cameraman for a French television news channel, who had been present since 7 a.m., by about noon some forty people had been injured by Israeli shooting. Then, Abu Rahmeh told Human Rights Watch, the situation exploded in gunfire, possibly in response to or concurrent with several minutes of Palestinian gunfire on the IDF bunker. The immediate effect was to scatter the crowd. Those who could not escape tried to find cover and remained pinned down. The firing from the IDF outpost continued for at least forty-five minutes, although during this time there was no apparent return fire from the Palestinian demonstrators or police.

Muhammad al-Dirra and his father sought cover behind a large water barrel fifteen meters from the intersection on the road to Karni. Eyewitnesses saw the father frantically waving to the Israeli soldiers not to shoot in their direction. Cameraman Abu Rahmeh told Human Rights Watch that during the first explosion of gunfire he and others had sought shelter behind a Volkswagen parked opposite where Muhammad and his father were pinned down. He did not initially pay attention to the boy and his father, filming instead the junction and then the firing on civilians trying to move a car away from the joint patrol post at the corner and past Abu Rahmeh in the direction of Karni, which left two injured. The screams of the boy attracted his attention, he said, and he filmed the sequence that has since been televised around the world. For fifteen minutes, Abu Rahmeh said, he watched the efforts of the father to protect his son and the red explosions on the wall and the roadway as bullets hit the area where they were cowering behind a large water barrel. During the first 5-7 minutes he saw a shot hit Muhammad in the leg, and the father became frantic, waving his hands and using his mobile phone to call for help until the father was also hit in the arm. About half an hour after the shooting started Abu Rahmeh heard a huge boom, and clouds of dust obscured his vision of the boy and father. When the dust cleared he saw that the boy had been fatally hit in the abdomen, and his father was wavering back and forth, apparently in shock, after being hit multiple times. Ambulances attempting to evacuate the boy and his father were prevented from reaching the site for another fifteen to twenty minutes due to continued heavy firing (see below). Abu Rahmeh said he later counted a large number of bullet holes in a circle in the wall around the area where they were trying to shelter themselves. According to Abu Rahmeh, at no time during the forty-five minutes he was present did he see any Palestinian fire from the street where he, the boy, and his father were located. At no time did the father and son, or anyone in their vicinity, pose any threat to the IDF post or to the lives of soldiers, nor could the father and son have been in the crossfire of any earlier shooting between the IDF post and Palestinians at the joint patrol post at the corner. Human Rights Watch was not able to inspect the wall because it and the surrounding area has been destroyed by the IDF (see above).

from:http://www.hrw.org/reports/2000/israel/isrlo00-02.htm#P76_8213
B’Tselem describes IDF tactics as ‘terrorism’:http://www.btselem.org/English/Press_Releases/2002/020723.asp

and on and on…

These are just the tip of the iceberg, I could of easily posted alot more than this and if you want specific clarifications or information I’m more than willing to give it to you as I have contacts in Israel and Palestine, now on to the rest of your post:

Hmm. If the house is booby trapped, how can they check the house? And where is it illegal to demolish a house holding a wanted combatant when forcible entry is otherwise suicide? That was the claims of the IDf, and although I was not there, unless there is proof that they were lying then I connot assert that they were unless I was biase.

Me biase? I can’t even spell the word :rolleyes:

If you already know the house is booby-trapped, why would you check it?:rolleyes:. You have your wires crossed, when the IDF demolishes houses of militants it is generally after they are have killed or captured the militant (demolishing houses as punishment is also illegal). Of course if they wanted to check a house was booby trapped they could just do this:"the soldiers entered the mosque with their guns resting on the shoulders of Palestinian civilians who were forced to march in front of the soldiers as “human shields.” " (also from B’Tselem)
The houses demolished are civilian property, which again is illegal, and it is often not because they are booby trapped for example in some instances the IDF drive their bulldozers down narrow streets to make room for tanks. There are many internationals, Palestinian civilians and Israeli peaceniks on the ground to observe this. Also many members of the IDF also give testimony to this fact.

Well I guess B’tselem isn’t omniscient either. Maybe you should broaden your information resources rather than having all of your eggs in one basket so to speak. Just an example. And the situations are not isolated. How many Israeli children where holding rocks or mock threatening the Palistinians before they died. When a “martyr” kills an oblivious child, that child is a target. Still dont see any difference?

Ok, B’Tselem is an Israeli human rights organisation, the reason I use them is that most statistics on casualities are based on their findings as they are regarded as the most accurate. I do use a huge variety of sites and alot of my information comes from Israeli and international contacts who have visited Palestine.

I’m not sure what the link was, but 1. it is broken, 2. it links to google

So you think that Palestinian children who ‘mock’ Israeli soldiers deserve to die? There is no Palestinian army occupying Israel so the two situations cannot be compared, however as I said before the instances of non-involved Palestinian children being delibrately targetted is at least the same as Israeli children being delibrately targetted.

Though they do kill children, I have never heard of a suicide bomber delibrately targetting children. The reason why they target buses is that some many off-duty Israeli soldiers use buses. Of course this is still despicable, but it is no more despicable as firing on a crowd of civilians indiscrimately.

So no I do not see the difference, unless you are some how saying that a life of a “raghead” :rolleyes: is not worth the same as an Israeli.

Im sorry you used the nazi anaology too. Germany was defeated by force and surrendered all rights to any “occupation” or any gains from the war. Israel has not. I never said Israel has a right to be there. But compared to nazis they have more. And again, you are comparing occupation to deliberate targetting and execution of civilians. As you said, the OT have been occupied for 50 years. It is noy urgent that they leave immediately. It is, however, urgent that a cease-fire be there before any other action is taken.

I used WW2 analogy as it is the most analogous situation and you appear to be saying that if Germany won WW2 it would be totally moral for them to keep their settlments in Eastern Europe. They infact have less of a right to be there than the Germans did in Eastern Europe, because alot of the land that Germany settled was land taken from them a Versailles or quite often already contained a large ethnic German population (by the way, do not take this to mean I support Lebensraum). Before 1967 none of the settlers lived in Palestine.

It is urgent that the settlers leave immediately, their very presence totally destroys the Palestinian economic infrastructure, as it forces the Palestinians to live in small guarded enclaves meaning that a journey that would take half an hour can now easily take up to 9 hours due to the fact that every time an Israeli settler needs to use a road, the IDF close it to all Palestinian traffic.

Yes a ceasefire is urgent, but it takes two to tango and Israel has made no moves for a ceasefire.

questions amswered in next post…

[Saen]

Well, I will wait in expectation of your next ost, but until then…

If asking for a cite is a waste of your time then don’t bother making assertions if you are too lazy to back it up.

What fucking fighting where the Israeli children not participating in when they where blown away? They were not “accidentally” killed. They were targeted and executed with no other reason than that they were Israeli. You show me a cite where it is even hinted at that any fucking IDF targeted a child specifically, only because they where Palistinian. You can make inuendoes and guesses all you want. I am fucking telling you that the suicide bombers targeted those children, for that reason. And fucking brag about it. This is my arguement. Not that the IDF never kills a child deliberately or accidentally. But that they are Killed without any other explanation, wheather half truth or lies, accept of who they fucking are.

[MC_Master_of_Ceremonies]

I have a few questions then.

1. Would the Palistinian children fear curfews if a pro-active cease fire was initiated by thier leaders. (meaning; open investigations of terrorist attacks and a non-revolving door arrests of terrorist suspects.)

2. Would the IDF destroy the infrastructure if they did not have to go into the territories to hunt down “martyrs” and their cohorts, who is harbored by the majority of the Palistinians and their leaders?

3. Do you think it is preferable for the situation to stay as is over an agreement that does not grant complete unnocupation of the territories?

1. Yasser Arafat has at several times tried to implement ceasefires but the IDF has not stopped military operations in Palestine. Any ceasefire action must be multilateral. Israel has refused to investigate or prosecute any of it’s citizens accused of war-crimes (Which includes Ariel Sharon), the PA cannot be responsible for the security of a country that is occupying them.

2. Wold there be any ‘matyrs’ if it wasn’t for the occupation and IDF tactics?

3. Have you ever heard the axiom: “An unjust peace, is no peace”? Until a fair peace is offered these militants will always be able to operate, a total withdrawal is in no way an unreasonable demand (all UN peace plans have included it).

[MC_Master_of_Ceremonies]

*Originally posted by Saen *
**Well, I will wait in expectation of your next ost, but until then…

If asking for a cite is a waste of your time then don’t bother making assertions if you are too lazy to back it up.

What fucking fighting where the Israeli children not participating in when they where blown away? They were not “accidentally” killed. They were targeted and executed with no other reason than that they were Israeli. You show me a cite where it is even hinted at that any fucking IDF targeted a child specifically, only because they where Palistinian. You can make inuendoes and guesses all you want. I am fucking telling you that the suicide bombers targeted those children, for that reason. And fucking brag about it. This is my arguement. Not that the IDF never kills a child deliberately or accidentally. But that they are Killed without any other explanation, wheather half truth or lies, accept of who they fucking are. **

The reason why I was annoyed that you asked for cites, is that all the information is well known and readily avaidable and hardly anything new and you asked me for a cite for everything.

The Palestinain children that I mentioned were not particpating in fighting and you have failed to provide any evidence that the Israeli children were targetted (I have however heard of 2-3 cases of direct targetting of Israeli children by Palestian militants).

More cites for delibrate targetting:http://www.iap.org/newsjune12.htm

Baha, a 13 year old boy, was shot and killed by the IDF in Nablus for no reason in the presence of four ISM internationals.

In Nablus on Sunday 22nd September at approximately 12:45, Baha Al-Bahesh, a 13 year old boy was shot and killed by the IDF. A group of four internationals from the International Solidarity Movement (ISM) were with Baha at the time. The following is an account of the events leading up to his tragic death.

Baha was well known by many of the internationals and often accompanied them around the city as a friend. He regularly worked as a volunteer with a wide range of international and Palestinian organisations.

On Sunday morning a tank and Armoured Personel Carrier (APC) were in the streets just east of the old city of Nablus. The tank and APC were firing at children who were throwing rocks. This situation lasted approximately one hour. This is a typical day in Nablus. Usually we (the internationals) would find a safe place out of the line of fire where we could observe the situation and where the IDF would be able to see that we were watching which we hope makes them moderate their response. In such situations we ask Baha to leave us for his own safety. However, on Sunday morning we could not find a suitable place due to the layout of the roads so we waited in adjacent streets in safety.

The situation came to an end and the children began to disperse. We looked around the corner of the street to see that the tank and APC had moved approximately 200m up the road and stopped. There was no gunfire and only a few children remained none of whom were throwing rocks. We decided to slowly walk up the middle of the road towards the tank. This is another typical situation in Nablus, tanks and APCs sitting on the road with people moving carefully along the roads. We had covered 20m when the tank began to move back towards us. We slowly moved to the side of the road outside a closed shuttered shop and remained in full visibility at all times. The tank then turned down a side street which was 120m from us. The APC began to make the turn but stopped.

We were still outside the shop in a group. Some children still stood at the junction from which we had come and we five were the only ones in the street. We were talking at the time.

One of the internationals noticed the soldier on the top aiming some kind of weapon down the street. This is usual behaviour as they use the sights as a telescope. Suddenly a single shot was heard and Baha was on the ground in the porchway of the shop. The APC drove on following the tank. Baha lived for two to three minutes, blood welling up in his mouth, his eyes in deep shock. We held his hands and talked to him. The ambulance arrived in two minutes. We cannot say exactly when he died.

Dr. Fathi from Al-Ethad Hospital who examined him spoke of (from notes taken at time of conversation):

“…shot under the axila passed through the left lung to right lung and heart. There was an accumulation of blood in thoraxcavity. Died of Haemo-Thorax. X-Ray showed multiple fragments in chest. Main injuries in left lung and the heart.”

The doctor also said that the location of the shot in the upper torso and massive internal damage caused by the “dum-dum” bullet was consistent with an intentional kill.

Baha had been with us all morning. He had not been involved in any stone throwing. The distance over which the shot was fired was 120m… out of range for thrown objects of any kind. He had nothing in his hands.

Baha was killed deliberately for no reason. Our good friend was murdered.

(All distances given above have been paced out except for the 200m)

The internationals present at the time were as follows:

Ewa Jasiewicz (UK / Polish dual nationality) 059-370-161

Al (UK) 059-381-803

Carol (USA) 059-386-895

Hanin (German Palestinian)

(from Jerusalem indymedia)

http://www.dci-pal.org/english/dcipress/releases/2000/00180.html

same story from as link above from CNN:http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/meast/10/01/gaza.boys.death.ap/

There is no point in burying your head in sand and pretend it doesn’t happen, a South African contact of mine has witnessed many simlair instances and I know several members of the Israeli left who too are well aware of the criminal elemnt within the IDF.

[Saen]

Well I had a long rebuttal post with quotes and everything. And cites linked etc; etc;. But I had to run to drop off some vidoes and caught your second post so I gave up.

If you just give me cites from pro-Palistinian resources, who is burying who’s head in the sand? The CNN story was all over the news and we all watched it. It was “unclear” except to the Palistinians who fired the shot who killed the boy. Go figure. IAP is the same organization who claimed that hundreds of refugees where massacred at Jenin and then burried.

B’tselem themsleves claim:

The organization monitors the activities of the Palestinian Authority affecting human rights, and deals in its publications with severe violations by the Palestinian Authority. However, as an Israeli organization, the majority of its efforts is directed at violations committed by our government on behalf of all of us.

And:

…B’Tselem decided to concentrate solely on human rights violations in the Occupied Territories.

Yet the link I was trying to present before led to ].this story. You know… the one I lied about because your precious B’Tselem didnt have it listed. I would have been skeptical too, since it did happen in the OT’s, wich is their focus. And you said yourself that they are “regarded as the most accurate”.
Not hardly unbiased.

1. Arafat playing lip service and saying “We condemn that act.”, While still letting terrorists, even from Hamas, out of jails from mock arrests is not a cease-fire. And Sharon was investigated for war crimes. And found personally responsible. And prosecuted. Maybe not how you and I would have liked. But dems da facts.

2. So the ‘martyrs’ never started thier bombings until afetr the IDF used their “tactics” even before the Camp David meetings came to an end? I seem to remember it differently.

3. So you totally disregard all calls of the extermination of Isreal as being a requirement of “fair” before the “militants” would cease operations against them? Have you ever heard the axiom: " Any cease-fire is preferable to terrorism"? Me niether, but that is what we are talking about. And not peace. That usually comes after the cease-fire. Remember?

[MC_Master_of_Ceremonies]

As I said before I was unware of the story (it may well be at B’tselem but there are several thousand deaths listed, so I may well of forgotten it).

Analysis has shown that the boy in question (in the video), because of his position could of only of been killed by delibrate targetting.

1. Sharon was investigated for the war crimes at sabrand Chantilla but his ‘punishment’ consisted of being excluded from high office for 5 years (?), however he has never been investigated for subsequent acts commited during his premiership( of course unlikely while he is prime minister) and he has failed to investigate the nyriad of accusations made by human rights groups against other Israelis.

2. Yes but the occupation started long before Camp David.

3. The only way a ceasefire will occur is by multilateral action, BOTH parties must agree to a ceasefire, saying “we’ll stop shooting when they stop shooting” and escalating the violence will never bring about one. Of course any peace deal will mean that the PA must recognize Israels right to exist.

The truth is the terrorism will never end til the occupation ends, you cannot expect the PA to make all the concessions. You have already recognized Israel has no right to be in the OT, so why doesn’t it get out?

You cannot say that Israeli terrorism is some how better than Palestinian terrorism, despite the fact that the Palestinians have a much smaller population many more Palestinian non-combatants have died than Israeli non-combatants and I refuse to accept your view that they should just lie down and let Israel walk all over them in the interest of peace. I am not a pacifist and while not supporting Palestinian attacks on illegitamate targets I support their attacks on the IDF and Israeli military infrastructure as their cause (ending the Israeli occupation that is)even though they often choose to fight it in an illegitimate way is a just one.