Sylvia Browne, Psychic

Factual Questions
1

Can the Teeming Millions assist me in debunking the psychic/spiritualist/charlatan Sylvia Browne? If you are not familiar with her, her website is at http://www.sylvia.org.

I heard of her for the first time Saturday (obligatory Christmas family thing) when I discovered that several of my usually-sensible family members have become vehement followers of Ms Browne. I’m somewhat alarmed by the situation, especially as they actually became hostile when I continued to question and criticize her claims.

I told them I was going to ‘run her by’ the Straight Dope crowd, so I’m counting on y’all for help!

I found and checked out her website Saturday night, and found it disturbing - IMO, definite ‘cultic’ leanings. She has even started her own church, the Novus Spiritus. I’m especially worried about the ‘hypnotic regression’ practiced by her ‘trained ministers’ - to help people recall their past lives! I can see the potential for a lot of mental and emotional damage to people that I care about, as well as dollars they cannot afford floating from their pockets to this poseur’s.

Worse, one of the people involved is a VERY emotionally unstable teenager who is borderline suicidal - I’m somewhat hesitant to even disturb her belief in this woman for fear of a tragic result.

I may not have much success in re-engaging the critical thinking processes of the adults involved, but I feel like I have to give it my best shot.

I’ve already made a start - they claimed that she is a genuine psychic with tons of files that prove her accuracy, assistance in solving crimes, etc. I asked why she didn’t then present this evidence to James Randi and claim the million-dollar reward? They responded that Ms Browne didn’t care about money - she does all of this to help people. Saturday night I e-mailed them the pages from her website advertising her $700 ‘psychic reading’ fee, and the $325 fee for a ‘hypnotic regression’ session with one of her specially trained ministers. (I might have scored a point when I commented that maybe SHE didn’t care about money, but she could sure help a lot of people by donating that million bucks to charity.)

I also found a webpage for the ‘Great Prediction Contest’ where several well-known psychics (including Ms Browne) and one ‘non-physic’ made predictions for 1998, and at the end of the year the results were tallied. The psychics based their predictions on their ‘psychic abilities’ - the non-psychic based his predictions on research into cutting edge technological and scientific developments, what the weather gurus were saying about El Nino, etc.

The non-psychic had the highest success rate - 60% accuracy. Ms Browne wasn’t even the next highest scorer - she shared third place (45%) with several others.

Anyway, fellow Dopers, I would appreciate any help you can provide. Some info that would help:

Information about ‘hypnotic regression’, how people create false memories in response, and how a genuine hypnotic therapist AVOIDS leading the subject.

Info about the debunking of reincarnation claims, such as the famous ‘Bridy Murphy’ case. I told them that my understanding was that in every such case that had been examined, it was found that the subject had no specific knowledge they did not have access to at some time in their ‘current’ life. In other words, they produced no information that they could only have known had they actually lived a previous life.

Has anyone here read her books and can point out some of her inconsistencies, etc.? I found a book review on a message board concerning her ‘blueprint’ theory that pointed out how it couldn’t possibly work - that sort of thing would be nice. Any critical book reviews would be helpful - all I seem to be able to find are glowing recommendations.

And a related bit - I read a couple of excerpts from her books on-line, and noticed that a lot of her advice and suggestions for improving lives seemed to be the same information presented on many self-help, self-therapeautic sies, especially those dealing with depression. Can anyone help me demonstrate that she is merely repeating standard psychological therapy techiniques, dressed up and spritzed with religious perfume?

Is anyone aware of any complaints against her? For example, I came across a few messages on internet BBs, etc. from people saying they had paid her money (usually around $1000) and never received any results - their missing child was not found, etc. and they’ve also had no further contact from Ms Browne.

Does anyone know if I can obtain transcripts of her appearances on the Montel Williams show? I’d like to have print copies of some of the errors she has made (for example, I heard that she predicted on air in November that Al Gore would win the election) and of the waffling and sidestepping I’ve HEARD that she did (but have no direct knowledge about).

Is anyone aware of any skeptical/debunking articles about her? Have any of the skeptical societies addressed her yet? David B., where are you? Can you help?

How about her claimed accuracy record for assisting police in criminal investigations, etc. - does anyone know how I can find out if any law enforcement officers have supported/denied her claims? Any independent documentation of her ‘successes’? Suggestions for how I can find out? How do I find out exactly what cases she is claiming to have solved/assisted with, as she seems to be rather vague in this area?

And my favorite project - Ms Browne has published a list of ‘Predictions for the Next Hundred Years’ on her website. Many of these are simply extrapolations on current on-going research - for example, if a new vaccine is scheduled for clinical trials in a couple of years, it’s pretty safe to predict that such a vaccine will be available in the next hundred years! Some of them are nonsensical, or are phrased in such a way that not only is an appalling ignorance of things scientific demonstrated, but it is often hard to determine exactly what she means.

Anyway, are any of the Straight Dopers interested in helping me dissect and destroy/explain these predictions (the ones that make some sort of sense, anyway)?

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not asking the Dopers to do my work for me - I have been and will continue to work on this, but it’s a pretty big job and I lack the education and resources available to the Teeming Millions. There are so many experts here in different fields, or just plain smart people with great research skills, as well as many people who are very experienced in critical thinking, debunking, and such - really, the Dopers are one of the most valuable resources in the world! I can sure use your help.

We can strike a blow against ignorance. This woman seems to be becoming VERY popular - maybe one of the skeptical societes would be interested in what we come up with? Maybe we could put up a ‘sylviadebunk’ website? Maybe even the Great Cecil would be interested? Lots of possibilities for this to be well worth the effort.

And, heck, it might be fun.

2

Well, you can find the lists for those psychic predictions at CSICOP. For the ones that are available (1998-2000), Sylvia Browne is mentioned a few times with the mistakes in her predictions and why some were accurate (i.e. obvious things that would happen and vague predictions)…

3

Aw, Coosa, sweetie, I love you for what you’re trying to do, but believe me, babe, if you’ve got family members who are determined to believe in psychics, or faith healers, or homeopathy, or Little Green Men, there’s not a whole lot you can do about it. Don’t make yourself crazy, okay? Nothing you can say to these people, no amount of scientific evidence is going to change their minds.

FWIW, I’ve looked at her website, and I don’t see that she’s any worse, or any more dangerously “cultic”, than the million or so other psychics out there plying the same trade. May I hazard a guess that perhaps this is the first time you’ve had up-close and personal experience with this kind of thing? There’s tons of them out there, and this Sylvia sounds exactly like the rest of them. Loud protestations of virtue ("I’m not in it for the money, I only want to help people), claims of pseudo-genetic qualifications (in one popular variation, it’s “my Irish grandmother had ‘the Sight’”), vigorous claims of accuracy that there’s no way of really checking out. Yeah, it’s the same old same old, all right.

That said, listen to the Master (and a few Staff Reports, too).
Is it possible to recall past lives through hypnosis?

How did Uri Geller bend spoons?

If psychics are frauds, why do police keep asking them for help?

Did psychic Jeane Dixon predict JFK’s assassination?

Did the U.S. government fund psychic research?

There is also the very useful Carl Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit. This is only one of many websites that feature it. Broken Link

There is all kinds of stuff out there on the Internet on the topics you want to know about. I will keep my eyes peeled and if I see something, I’ll come back and post it. But, again, even if there’s a disturbed teenager at stake, please don’t take it all so personal (and I mean that in a nice way). If people WANT to believe this stuff, they’re gonna, and you’re never gonna talk them out of it. You’re dealing with a kind of religion here, and you know you can’t talk someone out of believing in a religion. Look at what goes on over in Great Debates every day. :smiley:

4

She’s frequently mentioned on James Randi’s website.

http://www.randi.org/jr/06-14-2000.html
http://www.randi.org/jr/09-17-2000.html
http://www.randi.org/jr/faq.html
http://www.randi.org/jr/07-30-2000.html

Also, in the Skeptic’s Dictionary website, about halfway down, at March 31, 2000. Skeptic's Dictionary and Refuge: Mass Media Bunk 12

And again, mass media bunk 3 (With Montel Williams: about halfway down, April 8, 1997)

Here’s Montel’s website. It makes me itchy. :rolleyes: You can go prowl around and see about getting a transcript.
http://www.montelshow.com/terms.htm

This is certainly a fascinating little can of worms you’ve opened up, my dear! :smiley:

5

I’ve only heard of one legitimate “psychic”. Edgar Cayce. I wonder if Randi’s investigated him. Anyone know? I checked Randi’s site and didn’t see a search feature. (Looks like maybe I should buy his book and see.)

I haven’t kept up on Cayce’s stuff, but while he was alive, he never did readings for profit, and the little bit of money that came in from grateful clients was channeled to his research foundation in Virginia, the Association for Research and Enlightenment.

He had very interesting things to say about religion, reincarnation, earth changes and health issues.

6

Zor: Damn you to hell! (just kidding, just kidding!) I’ve spent THREE HOURS surfing from CSICOP, and joined 3 new e-mail lists! Seriously, though, thanks - the ‘predictions’ lists were great, and have joined my files.

Ducky: Thanks for all of the great links - guess I’ll be gone another 3 hours! You’re right that I don’t have much experience with ‘psychic’ stuff - I figured them out when I was a teen, and most of my skeptical research/interest since has centered on evolution/creationism,junk science, quackery, etc. I’ve pretty much ignored the paranormal and UFO/alien stuff as I thought it was all pretty obviously … um, how to put this … off-center from reality? Actually, I would love for some of this stuff to BE true - how exciting! - but I want PROOF. I have an aversion to appearing to be an idiot.

sigh I probably should just shrug and walk away from this - my usual reaction would be that it’s none of my business - but the situation is such (and I won’t go into detail) that I feel I need to try to provide a reality check. I guess I’m not really doing this for them, but for me - if they ignore me, fine, I will have done my best. But they may not be in so deep yet that they can’t back out and retain their dignity, so maybe I can make a difference. And I’m trying to provide information in general critical thinking, how psychics and such fool people so convincingly, etc., so they won’t feel that I’m just trashing their new idol and shoving negatives down their throats - I’m trying to help them figure it out for themselves.

And I guess I have visions of Scientology dancing in my head.

Oh, and I’ve had my Carl Sagan Baloney Detector Kit for years - but it was really just an upgrade on the Doubting Thomas gene I inherited from somewhere. :slight_smile:

Auntie Pam: My dad was a big Edgar Cayce fan when I was a kid, but now I really can’t recall much specific about him. I know I’ve seen his name several times in my surfing - I’ll make a note when I come across mention of him and post the links back here, if you’re interested. Just check back every once in a while.

And thanks again, everyone!

7

Is there anybody here who believes in any psychic?
You have to be nuts to demand “proof” that this fraud is no different that all the others. Why spend so much time on her? Are you really that sure there are “real” psychics? How stupid.

8

Cat: Read before you post, honey. It might prevent you from appearing to be intellectually challenged. :rolleyes:

9

I don’t see how “running things by the SDMB” is going to change any “minds”. Sounds like your relatives all have loose screws. Logic isn’t going to sway people who are that gullible.

10

Thank you for your kind and helpful comments. Rest assured that your contribution IS appreciated and will be given the consideration it deserves.

Further analysis of your post indicates that you might enjoy visiting our new website at http://www.embracingignorance.com , where our motto is ‘Why bother?’.

11

Ah. Your experience has been with “evolution/creationism,junk science, quackery”. None of these involve much manipulative behavior on the part of the practitioner/exponent/pusher. The junk science guy just gets up there and makes his presentation (“Run your car all day on just a teaspoon of gas!”) and lets his audience make up their own minds. But psychics are different. They go one-on-one, psychologically speaking, with their clients. The ones who buy it, the ones who don’t ask for much by way of proof, are the ones who are already predisposed to believe in it, and they are the ones who are sucked in permanently. The slightly skeptical ones take one look and walk away, or they go along with it up to a point, until they come to a stumbling block (“she said my daughter would be home soon, but I just found out she’s signed up for another tour of duty, she won’t be home for two years–how do you define ‘soon’?”). Then they get disgusted and they’re able to let it go.

It is a truism that all the most successful psychics are masters of human psychology. They have tremendous skills at reading people, and so they’re able to tell their clients exactly what they want to hear. Then the client fills in the blanks. The psychic says something like, “I see a girl with brown hair–” and the client says, “Well, it could be my missing daughter, but her hair was more blonde,” and the psychic quickly says, “Ah, but now the mists are clearing, and I can see, yes, it’s actually a girl with blonde hair…” And the client wants to believe in this psychic, and she doesn’t realize that SHE was the one who gave the psychic the info.

Also, psychics have tremendous people-handling skills, and a huge memory for details. They remember EVERYTHING their clients ever tell them, so it may be months or years later, when a psychic will suddenly tell a client all about a puppy she had when she was a little girl, and the client will be astonished. “She couldn’t possibly have known that!”, but she just doesn’t remember telling Madame Olga about it a couple of years ago. But Madame Olga remembers, you can bet your sweet patootie. That’s what she gets paid for.

Psychics have a lot of the same skills that con artists have. There are three really good movies that present these skills very well (dealing with con artists, not psychics). Carny with Jodie Foster, House of Games with Lindsay Crouse, and The Grifters with Anjelica Huston.

So, my point is, it’s hard to fight a master of psychology and manipulation with facts. The client THINKS she’s looking at facts–“She told me all about my puppy!” In the case of the con artist, the victim tearfully tells the Bunco Squad, “But the money was in the bag–I saw it!” She only THINKS she saw it.

12

The non-profit bit is nice, but I’d think the only true earmark of a “legitimate” psychic is that they make accurate predictions, which Cayce manifestly did not.

The Skeptic’s Dictionary entry on Edgar Cayce

13

Coose I truly madly deeply appreciate the fix you’re in, and your desire to do what you can to educate people you care about, but think twice before you commit too much time to this project. I have over 20 years relevant experience, particularly where claims of a ‘psychic’ nature are involved, and you are trying to make water run uphill. My sig line says it all. I am 99 percent sure that the people you refer to will go on believing, no matter what you do or how good your case is. Only they can achieve their own emancipation from the mind virus they have caught, and this tends to take a personal journey of years.

Sorry, Coosa, if that’s just too negative. That’s not my intention.

Okay, so you still want to plough ahead? I admire your care for your friends and family. Well, many Dopers have already pointed you to good sources on the web. Time-consuming trawl, isn’t it? It seems lots of Dopers have heard about CSICOP and James Randi but in my experience the third, and even better, source of informatin is Michael Shermer’s Skeptic Society: http://www.skeptic.com/ .

I hope I’m not contravening any SD rules here, but since I’m not trying to sell anything I guess it’s alright to mention that you may also find some useful pointers on my own web site: http://www.irowland.demon.co.uk

This includes some excellent books you can get hold of. I can also arrange for you to borrow (but not keep!) a copy of my book “The Full Facts book of Cold Reading” which explains how psychics give those “amazingly accurate” personal readings full of “things they couldn’t possibly have known”. No plug intended, Mr. Moderator!

If you want specific “how it’s done” information on any other psychic delusions, I’d be happy to exchange private emails outside this forum.

I offer you sympathy and good luck. But please do consider my words at the top of this posting. Sometimes, all you can do is maintain a very cordial, informed, sceptical stance and wait for believers to discover for themselves what a crock it all is - this can take time, but when they get there they will be only too receptive to what you have to say.

14

Sorry. In my posting I referred to my sig line and then left it off by mistake. Here ya go…

15

I did read it, and I just reread aaaaaaaaalll of it, to the same end. If you’re debating whether the 2,078th Santa Claus out of the 5,000 on TV this week is fake, you’ve got the wrong question. Sorry, but that’s how it is.

16

Mrs. Piper could communicate with the spirits of the departed and was never found to have been fraudulent. William James investigated her, for instance. She was an ordinary person and as far as I know had no theories about the universe, nor did she predict the future. Maybe some people can see, hear, or otherwise experience the departed, but they usually go on to developing an elaborate system, which is a mistake, since whatever they say is influenced by their own personalities. It is hard for the spirits to get through, as they must, all the mush that is in the minds of the generally average people who become mediums. The other side is probably mainly what the departed person wants it to be rather than some horrible system that most psychics tell you about: their view involves reincarnation, which is a truly horrible idea (One medium says that many people WANT to come back to this turkey farm but it is a very bad idea. They should stay in the spirit world or else go on to further developments, if any, and I agree). There have been uncanny cases of reincarnation,but as above I think these are just people who wanted to come back. Not everybody has to, thank goodness. Syliva Browne says that nothing happens for no reason at all, a banal view that she shares with almost all psychics, along with the idea that suffering is really a learning experience. I say this is like training dogs by beating them half to death. If human dog trainers don’t do this to dogs, then why should God do it to us? If there is a God then he must be helpless to do anything for us or even know us. He must be just that loving light that you see after you’re dead, and that’s it. My main complaint about Sylvia Browne, besides her reincarnation ideas and her unacceptable theodicy and all her money-making promotions
is her use of the term gnosticism to describe her beliefs.
I doubt that she ever looked up the word or knows anything about it, from what she has on her website about it!!!

17

Two admittedly biased Spiritualism websites describing Leonore Piper.
http://www.fst.org/piper.htm
http://www.newage.com.au/library/spiritualism.html

According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, William James was an “American philosopher and psychologist, a leader of the philosophical movement of Pragmatism and of the psychological movement of functionalism.”

A big William James website. http://www.cc.emory.edu/EDUCATION/mfp/james.html It makes no mention whatsoever of his connection with Mrs. Piper. I assume that his followers find it embarrassing. I looked at several other William James websites, and none of them mentioned Mrs. Piper, either.

Now then: This is from an article about a pioneering Victorian educator named Mr. Hall.
http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/m/mckibben-one.html

I haven’t been able to find any mention of James’ articles concerning Mrs. Piper. As I said, it’s possible his followers find it embarrassing.
http://www.ktardesigns.com/psychic_growth/research.htm

Okay, so my point is: it’s misleading to say, “Mrs. Piper was investigated by William James.” If he did any investigating, it was with his mind already made up that she was the real thing.

It may be perfectly correct to say, “Mrs. Piper was never found to be fraudulent”. This all took place during the latter half of the 19th century. She lived from 1857 to 1950, but apparently stopped doing seances early in the 20th century, just about the time Harry Houdini started investigating “table rappers”. http://lcweb2.loc.gov/ammem/vshtml/vshchrn.html

Thus, she and her methods were never subjected to a James Randi-type scrutiny, and she vanishes into the mists of history with her record intact.

18

Aw, shoot. But thanks for posting the link to that article, pldennison – and thanks to coosa too, for keeping your eyes open for Cayce references. (I’ll be checking back.)

I’ve read The Sleeping Prophet and There Is A River, and a bunch of other books with Cayce readings. Don’t recall reading about the Atlantean death ray – that might have caused me to be more skeptical about things Cayce said on other subjects.

The most intriguing bits for me were the earth changes (who doesn’t want to see California slide into the ocean? ;)), and what Cayce said about the reversal of the earth’s magnetic poles causing the changes, or at least setting them in motion.

Also intriguing (and something I’d like to believe in too) was Cayce’s belief in reincarnation, which supposedly only came about after he talked about past lives during his trance readings. “Whoa, did I say that?”

The books were everywhere in the 60’s, and I guess the fact that I never read anything debunking him (until now) made it easier to swallow his prophecies.

Phooey. I liked believing some of that stuff.

19

Valuable research–thanks. The embarrassing part is that it is so hard to find any references to Mrs. Piper among James explicators and scholars. And what is unexplainable is that so many people go out of their way to debunk things, who wouldn’t dare do this when it came to any of the organized religions, all of which are as feeble in the reason or science department as psychics. They even take the trouble to offer rewards and to start skeptics journals. In a recent issue of one of these I read an article on communication with the departed which was supposed to debunk it, I guess, but just had misinformation and was as feeble overall as a treatment of the subject as psychics are in being psychics. I’m not interested in psychics, just in the spirit world. As I said, people cook up elaborate theories that are really only based on their own shallow
versions of ageold explanations and systems. The whole Cayce thing is preposterous. I used the word investigation for what James did with Mrs. Piper because that is the word used in the literature. As I remember, he came to no conclusions but was impressed. No one is impressed with her spirit guides or with those of other mediums, which are obviously mainly artifacts of their personalities who have sprung into existence for the purpose or who have been developed from various suppressed alter-egos that didn’t have the chance to develop into the main ego. These sub-personalities may be living a life of their own without the main consciousness of a person being aware of them. One medium has Silver Chief, an soi disant American Indian as her spirit guide!
Socrates mentions in a dialogue that the place where ghosts appear is mainly in graveyards,taking ghost existence for granted, as all peoples do except anti-ghost people in every age. He also said that his inner voice was a messenger of the gods; either he was like Joan of Arc in hearing voices of a subpersonality or it was a messenger of the gods or spirits. That the dead live on is taken for granted in the Old Testament or at least in Samuel, in which Saul has the Medium of Endor raise the “shade” of Samuel, who is annoyed because he has been disturbed. People needn’t go out of their way to be skeptics, but on the other hand, people should never join any group of any kind, especially of the religious or spiritual kind, and should avoid rituals and systems and just wait and see.

20

I’d like to thank everyone for your responses here - I’ve been wandering the internet following links (and getting sidetracked quite a bit!) and it has certainly been a fascinating journey.

Ducky and ianzin: I appreciate and understand what you are saying. I’ve presented much of the information I’ve found to my relatives - what they do with it is their affair. If they choose to ignore it, that is their decision. I’m hopeful that they will at least consider the info - after all, these are the very same people who told me about James Randi several years ago! But people who are under a terrific emotional strain and desperately searching for answers will do strange things, like the person with terminal cancer who consults every quack practitioner in the world in hopes of finding a miracle cure.

ianzin: Heck, I recognize your name - don’t you (or did you, at one time) post a lot to one of the skeptic newsgroups? I only hung around at the newsgroups for a short while, as I’m not comfortable with newsgroups (new to this computer stuff) and didn’t have the time to keep up with the conversations. Came across your name several times while doing my research, also. I loved your essay on driving a car!

What in the world gave you the idea of teaching cold reading techniques to executives and salesmen? I’d love to have a copy of your book whenever you can get it reprinted. I have to admit, I had some rather hilarious moments imagining a meeting between a ‘psychic’ and one your trained executives! I wish I had the talent to write a possible scenario! What happens when two psychics try to ‘read’ one another? Stalemate?

I did locate an e-mail list for Sylvia Browne followers at e-groups, and read through the archives. It was pretty sad, really, to see the excuses people made when she was wrong, and even sadder to see them accept excuses for her and her son’s failure to answer queries, meet appointments for readings, etc. The credit card companies must love her!

People who want phone readings must make an appointment, and apparently she and her son are popular enough that these appointments are scheduled up to a year in advance. ‘Clients’ are required to pay for their reading a month in advance in order to reserve their spot, which most of them do over the phone with a credit card. Then you have to sit by your phone on the appointed day and wait for their call. One lady posted that after she had paid her fee in advance, her ‘appointment’ was postponed for several months. However, she received no phone call on the appointed day, and it took quite some time for her to get a response from the organization. They then said that they had tried to contact her to reschedule, but couldn’t reach her, and then resceduled her again for another appointment several months in the future. So, this woman has already paid $450 for a ‘psychic reading’ and has either been paying interest on her credit card or has lost the interest this money could have earned her had she held on to it, and has been waiting to receive the promised service for over 6 months! That’s ridiculous! Not to mention time lost from work, etc. from taking the day off to sit by her phone waiting on ‘the call’.

Several such stories, and some really poor experiences involving chats, the Montel show, etc., and people continue making excuses and believing. It’s really sad.