Syria deploys troops to put down protesters

[BrainGlutton]

@smiling_bandit

The fact that you can’t seem to comprehend his statement does not say good things about your ability to investigate the situation. One massive, huge problem in the Middle East is that the choice is often between corrupt, brutal autocrats and semi-honest, brutal theocrats. The major opposition in Egupt is the Muslim Brotherhood. I don’t think you have to guess too hard to figure out their platform.

That bullshit again?! How many Egyptians do you think there are who think the recent revolution has made their country worse?!

[Alessan]

The Egyptian Revolution isn’t over yet. It’s too soon to tell whether it was a success or not.

[Farmer_Jane]

@BrainGlutton

That bullshit again?! How many Egyptians do you think there are who think the recent revolution has made their country worse?!

It’s destabilized. It’s not over. I don’t think anyone was advocating for the Mubarak regime. We’re just saying that the Muslim Brotherhood and the military are the biggest power players right now, and no one knows how that will turn out. Who do you think took control over Egypt’s affairs when Mubarak stepped down? The military. There are accusations of torture and improper imprisonment.

Whoever is elected next will be someone that the military approves of. The military elite didn’t start or support the Revolution - it stood by and then took control.

Blogger Imprisoned for Criticizing Military

Military Trials for Protestors
Detentions & Torture

Democracy has its price. Look at the early history of the U.S. Other regime changes have had the same struggle: South Africa, Zimbabwe, Gaza, and Poland are a few that come to mind. History is full of events where people supported a regime change only to find that they aren’t that much better off.

Re: Military: From what I remember, the military elite has had quite a reign since the last shift in government - pretty much since the 50s.

edit: I appreciate your idealism, but it’s just not practical.

[XT]

Figured I’d post this here:

Report: Syrian abuses could be ‘crimes against humanity’

(CNN) – The Syrian regime has carried out a “systematic” series of abuses against protesters that could “qualify as crimes against humanity,” and the United Nations must hold the government accountable, a leading humanitarian watchdog organization said Wednesday.

The 57-page document contains chilling detail from dozens of victims and witnesses to abuses in Daraa province, the southwestern Syrian powder keg where the anti-government protest movement began in mid-March before spreading across the country. The government reacted with a tough crackdown against protesters.

At present, the report says, there have been about 887 deaths “across Syria,” including at least 418 people in Daraa province.

Pretty grim. Doesn’t look like anything substantial will be done by the international community, however.

-XT

[BrainGlutton]

The big story this week is a 13-year-old boy who allegedly was tortured and killed in state custody. His picture is being displayed at rallies. Apparently word is spreading via a Facebook page (in Arabic) and a viral video of his wounds. The most primitive human brutality meets the Information Age.

[BrainGlutton]

And, in an increasingly familiar story, Syrian troops shoot demonstrators, killing at least three, at mass (100,000 attending) funeral for persons slain in earlier protests, suggesting that this will happen again at their funerals and so on . . . (Unless the tactic mentioned in post #20 above – the troops/cops keep the body – proves entirely effective.)

This is getting syrious.

Can’t believe it took me this long to use that one.

[BrainGlutton]

Thousands of Syrians flee to Turkey.

Don’t suppose the Turks will do anything about all this?

[XT]

Not a chance. Turkey isn’t going to get involved in what’s going on in Syria at this point.

-XT

[BrainGlutton]

@xtisme

Not a chance. Turkey isn’t going to get involved in what’s going on in Syria at this point.

-XT

I remember right at the end of the Gulf War, when Bush I encouraged the Iraqis to rise up against Hussein, and the Shi’ites and the Kurds did and Hussein crushed them, and Iraqi Kurdish refugees were swarming into Turkey. The Turks didn’t like it one little bit, but I don’t recall if they did anything about it.

[XT]

And Turkey is even less likely to get directly involved in what’s going on in Syria. They would only get involved if for some reason Syria directly attacked them. Other than that I can’t see they doing anything. I don’t see anyone doing anything directly about what’s going on in Syria. Sanctions are going to be the extent of international involvement IMHO, unless things radically change.

-XT

[BrainGlutton]

The Kurds . . . that’s another thing. See this map – the northeastern sliver of Syria is heavily Kurdish. If they take this moment to try to secede – as in Iraq, our choosing sides there is sorely complicated by, and sorely complicates, American relations with Turkey – which one Administration after another seems to think are pretty important.

[BrainGlutton]

OK, now it is getting syrious:

**Syrian army ‘cracking’ amid crackdown

Testimonies from defected soldiers give a dramatic insight into the split apparently emerging in the security forces.**

The escalating military offensive in northwest Syria began after what corroborating accounts said was a shoot-out between members of the military secret police in Jisr al-Shughur, some of whom refused to open fire on unarmed protesters.

A growing number of first-hand testimonies from defected soldiers give a rare but dramatic insight into the cracks apparently emerging in Syria’s security forces as the unrelenting assault on unarmed protesters continues.

Speaking to Al Jazeera from Turkey, having crossed the border on Friday night, an activist based in Jisr al-Shughur and trusted by experienced local reporters described how a funeral on June 4 for a man shot dead by plain-clothes security a day earlier grew into a large anti-government protest.

“As the demonstration passed the headquarters of the military secret police they opened fire right away and killed eight people,” the activist, who was among the crowd, said. “But some of the secret police refused to open fire and there were clashes between them. It was complete chaos.”

The following day the activist and others went back to the military police building having heard explosions coming from the area the evening before. They found dozens of bodies, including that of the military police chief, identified by his ID card.

All foreign media is banned from reporting in Syria so it is impossible to verify the account firsthand, though it tallies with other testimonies from residents of the area that clashes between security forces had taken place.

Since then, President Bashar al-Assad has poured dozens of tanks and thousands of troops into northwest Syria, with the military, thought to be led by Assad’s brother Maher, vowing to “restore security” after it said 120 security men were killed in Jisr al-Shughur by “armed gangs.”

However, state-run Syria TV admitted that gunmen “in military uniform” were responsible for the killing of the 120 security personnel, with SANA, the official news agency, claiming the assailants had stolen the uniforms and that residents were now pleading for the army to intervene.

This is exactly how Libya’s civil war started.

[Alessan]

I’ve been getting numerous reports of Iranian and Hizballah operatives fighting on behalf of the regime, with Iranians even being given command of Syrian troops. It makes sense - as Qaddafi learned, it’s best to use outsiders to suppress internal revolts - but unlike in Libya, these aren’t mercenaries; if Assad manages to remain in power, it’ll mean a major increase in Iranian influence over Syria.

[Ryan_Liam]

Which will eventually just produce an anti Iranian regime in Syria once the dust settles. Iranian meddling in an Arab Sunni country will probably just inflame the situation further, and unfortunately increase the sectarian nature of the conflict which is coming about.

[BrainGlutton]

I just saw an expert interviewed on CNN. He says the regime will survive because it does have a mass base of support, maybe 40%, and solid control of the military and security forces. But it will emerge from this crisis weakened, and more dependent on Iran, having lost Turkey as a friend.

[Ibn_Warraq]

@Alessan

I’ve been getting numerous reports of Iranian and Hizballah operatives fighting on behalf of the regime, with Iranians even being given command of Syrian troops. It makes sense - as Qaddafi learned, it’s best to use outsiders to suppress internal revolts - but unlike in Libya, these aren’t mercenaries; if Assad manages to remain in power, it’ll mean a major increase in Iranian influence over Syria.

True, but keep in mind that the Syrian military is controlled by the Aliwite minority unlike Libya.

In the Middle East, minorities can often be counted on to distrust majority Arab rule.

For example, I’m sure you’d agree that protesting Palestinians would probably be far more likely to be given a hard time by a Druze or Bedouin unit of the IDF then one made up of Sabras.

[BrainGlutton]

Something’s happening . . . hard to say what, though . . .

Syrian opposition figures have declared support for the “peaceful uprising” in the country, calling for a peaceful transition to democracy.

About 160 critics of the regime met in the capital, Damascus, on Monday, at a conference approved by the government.

In a document they called a “pledge,” they vowed to remain “part of Syria’s peaceful uprising for freedom and democracy and pluralism to establish a democratic state through peaceful means.”

They also called for an immediate end to the security crackdown, the right to demonstrate peacefully, the release of political prisoners, freedom of the press, the safe return of refugees and moves to prevent foreign intervention.

Monther Khaddam, an academic from the coastal city of Latakia, said intellectuals were “behind street demands until the end”.

The conference included outspoken opponents of President Bashar al-Assad, including writer Michel Kilo, who spent three years as a political prisoner.

“The solution to this crisis has to address its root causes. This regime must be toppled and replaced with a democratic system,” he said.

<snip>

Monday’s opposition gathering was hailed by the government as an example of reforms promised by the president, but some activists dismissed it as a “publicity stunt” because of the absence of groups such as the banned Muslim Brotherhood.

Some critics also said the meeting, attended only by individuals independent of any party affiliation, was giving legitimacy to the regime while it continues to clamp down on dissent.

"This meeting will be exploited as a cover-up for the arrests, brutal killings and torture that is taking place on a daily basis,‘’ opposition figure Walid al-Bunni, who was not participating in the conference, said.

Al-Bunni told The Associated Press news agency that he was not invited to the meeting because authorities had “vetoed” some names.

[BrainGlutton]

@Ibn_Warraq

For example, I’m sure you’d agree that protesting Palestinians would probably be far more likely to be given a hard time by a Druze or Bedouin unit of the IDF then one made up of Sabras.

The IDF has ethnically-homogeneous units?! Is any reason given?

[Ibn_Warraq]

@BrainGlutton

The IDF has ethnically-homogeneous units?! Is any reason given?

I assume the Druze and the Bedouin would rather talk to each other and take their orders in Arabic than Hebrew.

It’s similar to the way Arabs and Jews in Israel are sent to different schools.

Israel certainly believes in the idea of a melting pot for it’s Jewish citizens but not for it’s non-Jewish ones.

[Alessan]

It’s not that students are sent to different schools - I’m pretty sure Arab students can learn in Jewish schools if they want, they’ll just have to do it in Hebrew; and vice versa. It’s a problem, but I don’t know any way around it. The Jewish majority will never allow classes in Arabic, and just think what will happen if we started to force Arab children to study in Hebrew.

As to the Druze and Bedouin units, they’re a bit of a relic. Druze and Bedouins are currently free to serve anywhere in the IDF (I’ve served with and under several of them); the Arabic-speaking units are available for those who prefer to serve in them.