I’m going to say something that could be taken in a bad way, and I really hope none of you take it that way. 80% of the population of the State of Israel are Jews. About 18% is made up of Palestinian Arabs, of whom 90% are Muslims. The other two percent are Druze, who seem to be pretty content to call themselves Israelis, with the exception of those from the Golan. Having lived in Israel, I can tell you honestly that Palestinian Arabs do not consider themselves to be Israelis. They do not feel that the Israeli flag represents them, and they have their own flag. They have autonomous rule over the West Bank and Gaza Strip, where the Palestinian flag flies. Most of these people have Jordanian, not Israeli, citizenship. Even Palestinians who live in Israel proper (not in the West Bank or Gaza - most Arabs in Israel live in the Galilee) and have Israeli citizenship simply do not consider themselves to be Israeli. They go to seperate schools, which are conducted in Arabic, they don’t serve in the army, etc. Baruch haShem, Palestine will soon be a sovereign nation, and I don’t know what will happen then, so I’ll end that point here.
South Carolina…gee, what can I say? That is a completely different situation. The statehouse should be representative of all the people of the state. A significant proportion of the population are saying “This flag offends me. It does not represent me; instead it represents a painful and unhappy history.” If the African Americans in South Carolina said “We are so completely seperate from you South Carolinans that we refuse to even use that title for ourselves, we do not use your flag as a symbol. We will live amongst you, true, but there will be so much hostility, anger, and ignorance between our two groups that we demand our own seperate non-South Carolina state” THEN it might be a comparable situation.
That’s a pretty simplistic view of the situation.
I’m aware that the OP was about the Israeli flag viewed by Christians, but I’m trying to make the debate a little more logical, as many Israelis have never met a Christian (and certainly very few have daily interactions with them). Average Israelis have about as much knowledge about Christianity and Christian history as that South Carolinian probably does about Judaism and Israeli history. Basically, they wouldn’t give a rat’s ass if some guy in South Carolina was offended by their flag, and because they’re Israelis, they’d tell him so straight out.
~Harborina
“This is my sandbox. I’m not allowed to go in the deep end. That’s where I saw the leprechauns.”
I’m sorry, but what is the Baruch haShem refering to? Is it the fact that Palestinians don’t serve in the army, or that Palestine will soon be sovereign?
If I was discussing Lucy Lawless but I wrote Lucy Topless, would that be a Freudian typo?
The reason for the Navy Jack’s presence on the dome has been well covered.
Here are some of my thoughts:
The “controversy” over the flag is quite simply a direct result that the people who started (and are the most vocal in) the “bring it down” movement are Black. If any Whiteys in the past 30+ years had brought up the subject first, it would have been down by now.
Most South Carolinians (Black and White alike) don’t give a hoot one way or the Navy Jack. Most agree that it has no real place atop the State House, but it’s not something that the average person really cares about.
There is a very noisy minority of people who want it down.
There is also a very noisy minority of people who want it to fly.
My solution: a compromise–let’s also raise a flag atop the State House that will appeal to Blacks.
I have recommended it–and even supplied a design idea–to our elected officials, but so far it has not met with much response.
Maybe it’s because of the design I had for it: a couple of Black guys strangling a redneck with a Confederate Flag.
This would truly be a situation that would be “representative of all the people.”
What a stupid fucking thread. I blew off the whole damn thing after about the first three posts. Here’s the deal with the Israeli flag: don’t feel offended by it if you’re not a citizen of the State of Israel, since it doesn’t represent you. If you happen to be an Israeli citizen of a non-Jewish religion, good luck trying to get them to change their flag. Somehow I bet they aren’t going to do it.
As for the Confederate flag debate: You might have different opinions if you’re a black guy in SC or GA. I don’t buy that heritage crap, since that heritage was evil in its condoning and profiting from slavery. Yet you have to honor all those poor dumb kids who went off and got their asses shot to hell by Sherman’s troops. My suggestion is pull down the Battle Flag over the SC Statehouse and remove it from the Georgia flag, and fly it over memorials to the fallen soldiers at places close to the state Capitol.
–Lawrence, your Barcelona correspondent who had three great-great-grandfathers fall in battle fighting on the Confederate side. I do not request that their cause be praised, for it was wrong. I do request that their memory be honored.
Sure. Note however that I never said anything about calling anyone a drooling moron, only that I had the right to conclude that anyone displaying the Stars and Bars is one. As a Southerner myself, descended from a line of Southerners going back to at least 1750 along the paternal line, I’m far too polite to wantonly insult a fellow Southerner – particularly when I have already established a rebutable presumption in my mind that they are a drooling moron of the South’s-gonna-rise-again variety.
While my credentials as a Southerner are unimpeachable – even my Italian immigrant ancestors on my mom’s side were in Arkansas for two generations before she was born, and I’ve lived my entire life in either Arkansas or Georgia – perhaps the preponderance of border staters and hillbillies, as opposed to Deep South flatlanders, in my ancestry accounts for some of the difference in our attitudes about the Civil War. But I also believe that given the history of the Stars and Bars and the uses to which it has been put in this century (i.e., having been reincorporated in the design of several state flags, including Georgia’s, during the civil rights era as symbol of defiance, being brandished by the KKK, etc.), there are perhaps means by which one can honor the memory of those men who fought for their beliefs that are less antagonistic to those whose background is different; in your own words:
In all seriousness, if what I said offended you, then I am sorry for that: not necessarily that I used the phrase “drooling moron”, but that you took offense. I would point out that there is absolutely nothing in the phrase “drooling moron” that marks it as specifically applicable to Southerners. There are enough transplants from practically every other part of the world here in Atlanta who also meet the description to establish that. The point I hoped I made in my post was being offended is always a choice we make ourselves; occasionally it’s justified, sometimes it’s not, and most times it’s not worth the emotional and intellectual energy it consumes.
Plenty of points to discuss about the origins of the Civil War, but I don’t have the energy to go in depth on it. If someone wants to have a long term email discussion on it, fine.
I will dispute until my last dying day, however, any assertion that the Southern States were right to attempt to dissolve the Union. Too many men died on both sides - and for what? To prevent possible “economic discomfort” for the slaveowning aristrocracy.
Flying the flag of the Confederacy over any United States governmental institution, federal, state or local is just plain wrong. It dishonors the Union soldiers that died for this country, not to mention the African Americans that the flag’s government sought to keep enslaved.
Are there any Palestinian posters to this board? I am not in a position to make assertions, but I suspect that The Palestinians would claim there is an analogy between their own situation under Israel and the situation of blacks in South Carolina in 1964 when the Confederate flag was raised over the state house.
I am not going to say the two situations are comparable; I am not saying that their view is right or wrong; what I’m saying is that I seriously doubt most Palestinians would claim that the situation is NOT analogous, and that they are NOT offended by the Israeli flag and the history it represents. The point of the OP, I believe, is, should that feeling by such a sizable minority be grounds for changing the flag?
I’m sure we’ll hear a lot here about how the two situations are completely different, (and probably nothing from anyone who has lived in Israel among Palestinians); let me forestall that by saying again that it’s beside the point whether you or I feel the cases are different. As some people here have said, it’s the fact that people are under the control of a government which has chosen as its symbol what they see as an icon of their own oppression.
The analogy is considerably muted by the somewhat nebulous independent Palestinian state, but the idea can be retroactively applied to the Israel of fifteen years ago.
I must admit, I associate more than one issue with the confederate flag. But I can understand the feelings of those for whom one repugnant interpretation stands out. Still, I have to agree that it is so easy to find such offenses that a certain amount of tolerance is called for on all sides, including the offended parties.
If I have to come down on one side of this issue, I agree with C3: Let the Carolinians vote on it.
Excepting of course for the minor issue that said Palestinians who were residents of Israel & thus citizens, had the unhindered right to the vote and that the Israeli government also operates in Arabic.
This may amuse some folks and may cause others pause:
Personally, I find it to be a well-thought out solution.
The amusing part is this:
Apparently, some Southerners still think Blacks should be considered “all other persons” as originally written in the Constitution. Little do they realize that some Blacks at the time were Free Persons and thus enumerated just as they were. Those pesky amendments! (sarcasm in the last sentence)
"I will dispute until my last dying day, however, any assertion that the Southern States
were right to attempt to dissolve the Union. "
Well it is your right to keep a closed mind, and make an argument from ignorance, if you want to.
Your also demonstrably wrong in your assertions.
I would be happy to argue this with you further, but, please don’t take this wrong, I would suggest you do some reading on this topic first. I might recommend “Gods and Generals” by Michael Sharra. “Battle Cry of The Rebublic,” or “A Civil War Narrative” so that you had an understanding of the complex socioeconomic issues that were prevalent leading up to the civil war.
Sounds like the makings of a brilliant compromise to me. Nice work, Lawrence. Any “defend the flag” types out there who would have a problem with this solution? Anybody on the other side of the debate?
“Every time you think, you weaken the nation!” --M. Howard (addressing his brother, C. Howard).
I’m not a defend the flag type, but being in the thick of things here in SC, I think I can comment on that.
Basically, the most vocal Keep the Flag Flying people think that by compromising and making a separate war memorial even on statehouse grounds is buckling to the bullies over at the NAACP. It’s the old “if we do this one thing, what will we be required to do next?” argument.
In addition, from what I’ve heard, the NAACP has also turned down that solution…not good enough. Flag should come down, no memorial.
While you’re right, it sounds like the most reasonable solution, and I think the majority of people would be thrilled to get it done and have that be the end of it, nobody seems to want to bend.
Ah, it’s great to live in such a commonsense, reasonable, love your neighbor as you would love yourself era.
If Blacks in South Carolina don’t want the CSA battle flag flying over the state house there, why don’t they just vote for politicians who will take it down?
If Libertarians in teh United States don’t want oppressive government regulations, why don’t they just vote for politicians who will dismantle the bureaucracy?
The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*
I’m sorry for butting in so late…I’ve avoided this thread for days and finally read most of it. If you will allow me to put my two cents worth in this late in the game:
Part of the spoils of winning a war is taking the enemy flag. The union defeated the confederacy so bad, I don’t understand how this slap in the face to America has been allowed to go on for so long. We won. Period. Does the United States have to go back to Columbia and retake the statehouse?
The CSA battle flag belongs only in a CSA cemetery. Anywhere else is treason in my book.
On the other hand, maybe we would be better off allowing SC to become a seperate nation.
Oh, man, we just bought a house…I don’t want to have to move AGAIN!
I sort of view it like that, too, Ronald, but try writing that opinion in to the Letters to the Editor section in our local SC paper. I wonder if the colonies had lost to the English back in the 18th century - would we be able to fly an old revolutionary flag today? Over a government building?
