I reserve the right to be insulted by your patronizing remark, friend.
Are you saying that the South was right to secede? And if so, are you saying that any state today has the right to secede?
You’ve got your sources Scylla. I’ve got mine, thank you very much. I’ve read all three of the books by Shaara and Son, numerous histories of the Civil War, and accessed many other sources, absorbing a great deal of information along the way about the causes and the conduct of the war.
I’ll agree, I’m no expert on the Missouri compromise or the economics of the Antebellum South, but I didn’t pick this stuff up in junior high either. What you define as “ignorance” can also be defined as “mainstream interpretation of the historical record”.
As I said, I’m not interested in a long and loud debate on this, especially in a folder labeled “take down the Israeli flag”, but twice now, you’ve either compared my position to a “yeeha-Star Wars-the world is black and white” mindset, or now, simply close minded and ignorant. What a great way to argue your point. I’m astonished that I never realized what a dolt I was.
I bow to your deomonstrated superiority. Here’s an idea - let’s split the union right now. Every minority group, political party and school of thought gets its own territory. Hey, if it was right in 1861, it’s right now, too, isn’t it?
Truth is a virus.
Irony is a retrovirus.
The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*
matt4film:
Please don’t take it personally. I’m not insulting you, but your argument. Your previous posts show no reasons for assertions which appear to me as gross oversimplifications.
It appears to me that the South had a strong case for its actions. The secession was voted upon by elected officials, and appears to me to be well within State’s rights as they existed at the time. The secession purposefully mirrored America’s declaration of independance from English rule, and was done for similar reasons.
Should we still be a part of England?
You have not responded to the arguments made, but just stated naked opinion. Though valid, opinions are useless for debate unless they are backed up by reasoning. I felt justified in assuming that this was all there was to your argument.
I would be very interested in any reasons you might have for your assertions, and will start a thread, as I think it might be a fascinating debate in it’s own right. I would welcome your opinions and reasoning.
Please don’t misconstrue my attack of your arguments as a personal one.
Does anybody remember the Abbot and Costello routine about the Susquehanna (?sp) Hat Company.
It is just this kind of overheated rhetoric which will not win the day. If you want to persuade Southerners to do something you would do better to resort to reason. Believe it or not, we do respond to it. But when you start calling our ancestors “traitors” or accusing us of “treason”, well, I hope you can see how that might not sit too well with us.
Part of the Southern character, if there is such a thing, is that when pushed, we tend to push back. (We share that sometimes-self-defeating trait with the Irish, I suppose.) Name-calling is not helpful, and when we get the feeling that someone is trying to dictate to us what we can and cannot do, we tend to dig in our heels.
The flag issue has been raised, and now, it is more likely to be resolved in favor of those who want the flag down if they will just back up a couple of steps and let things cool off for a minute. I think the polls to which C3 has made reference actually show that a majority believe the flag should come down.
Put yourself in the position of the polititians of South Carolina for a moment. Now, I expect that if you took a secret ballot, most of them would actually agree that the flag should come down. But if they just say “OK, you’re right, we’ll take it down,” it’s gonna look like they’re caving in to outside pressure. (Not likely to endear them to their more hard-core constituents.) But if you back up and let things cool off a bit, you can give them the opportunity to come up with an “honorable retreat” rather than an “unconditional surrender”. Make sense?
“Every time you think, you weaken the nation!” --M. Howard (addressing his brother, C. Howard).
spoke-:
Excellent point, and the analysis that follows is, I believe, spot on as well. In a case where individuals or groups were being harmed in some material way, it would be inexcusable to allow any delay in effecting a remedy. In this situation, no one’s life, liberty, or property is imperilled by the current state of affairs, and only a solution that allows the hard-liners in the SC state government to save face is likely to be adopted.
It would be interesting so find out (though we’re unlikely to do so) what would happen if those who oppose flying the flag because it’s offensive to them decided, en masse that they no longer gave a damn about whether it was there or not, if they decided to neutralize an offensive (to them) symbol by refusing to take offense, or even to care one way or the other. If you evacuate as symbol of its meaning . . . .
“Tex Ritter . . . and that’s when I woke up.”
And of course, that should have been:
Rackensack wrote:
This is something worth considering. In fact, I have often thought that the best way for African-Americans to neutralize the Confederate flag would be to begin wearing it and waving it themselves, en masse! (How’s that for a radical idea?) If every black man in sight had a confederate flag on his shirt, his hat, or his car, seems to me like the emblem would no longer hold such charms for those who have misappropriated the flag to espouse racism.
IIRC, there was actually a clothing company which tried something like this a couple of years back. They were using the confederate flag, except the colors were changed to red, gold and green! I thought it was one of the coolest ideas I had ever seen. And if I remember correctly, the clothing company was even based in South Carolina! Sadly, I think they may have gone out of business. Not sure about that.
“Every time you think, you weaken the nation!” --M. Howard (addressing his brother, C. Howard).
Glitch taught me the importance of letting an opponent save face.
Okay – I really did try to avoid this, but it is friday and whimsy fills my soul. Therefore:
There is a name for that, Scylla. It is called democratic representation. You know, the principal of one man, one vote. Representation based upon land ownership is most often associated with feudalism. Though if you really want to argue that Alaska should have more members in the Congress than New York it might make an interesting thread.
I am certain that you can ack this up with relevant federal laws which restricted the types of industry and levels of production which were permitted to be developed south of the Mason-Dixon line.
Lib mentioned a northerner who owned a slave at the end of the Civil War. From this you feel justified in damning the entire abolitionist movement as hypocrites? I assume, then, that you will agree that if we can find one KKK belonging, white sheet wearing, Nazi sympathizing, Stars and Bars waving, Dixie singing, Southern pride shouting, Bocephus loving, South Carolinian racist we can justly condemn all of those who argue for non-racist support of the symbol as hypocrites.
There are so many ways to criticize this, but I think I shall restrict myself to pointing out: “to keep the price of textiles high . . . so that Northern industry have a strong supply of cheap cotton”
The Southern states seceded from teh Union rather than surrender their slave-based economic system. How many more decades of mass enslavement would you consider it morally justified for them to have inflicted upon other human beings before acceding to economic inevitability? For that matter, are not these same “economic and technological reasons” some of the very same inequities and hypocricies of which you were accusing the United States above?
Certainly, if one conveniently ignored the history racism, segregation and abuse which characterized the deep south for long, long after the reconstruction had ended. What do you see in the land of Jim Crow laws and the KKK which leads you to believe that Southern society would have welcomed their black brothers into a society of equals if only those pesky Northerners would have stayed out of southern business?
Now – please do not take this to imply that I hold a simplistic, black-and-white view of the causes of the Civil War. On the contrary. I know of very few conflicts that can be reduced to a single cause. I just object to the type of revisionist glossing which attempts to paint the South as the innocent victim of oppressive Northern economic policies: a land full of honest, happy patriots most of whom did not own slaves and who were almost certainly going to abandon it on their own soon anyway, despite the fact that the constitution of every single Confederate State of America explicitly preserverd the institution of slavery.
Now, I wish to make a dangerous digression and actually address the OP. Libertarian, if the Battle Flag of the Conederacy were now or ever had been the official flag of the state of South Carolina you might have a valid analogy, though the speciic adoption of teh symbol during the period of teh civil rights movement would be a deviation worth examining. As it stands, though, your analogy fails almost immediately. Perhaps you can find another example of a non-official flag with similar symbolic conotations being raised above a seat of government.
The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*
Spiritus:
Excellent points. So we don’t hijack the thread may I suggest you copy your post and move it to the new debate I created?
I look forward (with some trepidation) to addressing your points.
It ain’t mine, Spiritus. Recheck.
I do have strong evidence, though, that southern secession was all about the institution of slavery.
Just a few thoughts.
Regarding the removal of the Confederate Battle Flag from the SC State House. One reason so many Southerners oppose this is because this will only be the beginning. If the NAACP succeeds in getting it taken down their next target will be the GA State flag, then the MS state flag, then all other public displays of the flag. This is the avowed intention of the NAACP. They want to ban all public displays of the flag. On the State House, within a State flag, on monuments, within battlefield parks. In short everywhere.
They have already opposed the erection of monuments honoring Confederate Veterans and the inclusion of General Lee on the Canal Walk in Richmond. If they succeed these attacks will only increase. Their aim seems to be to attack anything that faintly hints at Southern pride.
If we speak up for our heritage we are automatically labeled as racists and bigots. It appears that if one takes pride in ones Southern heritage then one must support racism, segregation, and the destruction of civilization as we know it. I for one am not now, nor have I ever been a member of the KKK or any other hate group. I do not now, nor have I ever supported their poisonous goals. I have lived my whole life in the South and know very few people who do support them. Most people look on them as fools. However, I am a proud SOUTHERNER. Always have been always will be. In these PC times this alone appears to make me evil.
I won’t even go into the causes for and results of the War for Southern Independence, it would take to long. Even if everything mainstream history tells us about the War is true (and I don NOT believe it is) the fact remains that our ancestors DID fight for what they thought was a just cause. They DID suffer horribly for their beliefs. And we as Southerners DO continue to suffer to this day. No other section of this country has been throught what the South has.
In order for the north to justify what it did and continues to do to the South it must continue to portray us as evil, ignorant heathens. No other culture or ethnic group in the world is so consistently portrayed in a negative light as we are. Since a few ignorant bigots put on sheets and spread terror we must all be that way. Right? This is the message our children recieve. Are all German people portrayed and Nazis? No. Are all Arabs portrayed as terrorists? No. Are all Irish portrayed as thugs who blow up children? No. Are all blacks portrayed as crackheads? No. Yet somehow in our own country anyone who takes pride in their Southern culture or heritage must be a racist bigot. They must be traitors. They must want to destroy the American way of life.
We are fighting to save our cultural identity here. Fighting to save our heritage. Does that heritage include things that we now consider wrong? Yes. What culture doesn’t. Virturally every culture, ethnic group or nationality has something in it’s past we would now consider either immoral or evil. The South is the only one who gets berated about it constantly.
Enough is enough. You don’t like our culture? Fine. Don’t like the way we do things? Fine. Don’t like the way we talk? Fine. Don’t come down here! And DON’T try to change us.
Right you are, LIB. OP was yours, analogy was not. Must be my day for missing the obvious, eh?
The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*
Just a few thoughts.
Regarding the removal of the Confederate Battle Flag from the SC State House. One reason so many Southerners oppose this is because this will only be the beginning. If the NAACP succeeds in getting it taken down their next target will be the GA State flag, then the MS state flag, then all other public displays of the flag. This is the avowed intention of the NAACP. They want to ban all public displays of the flag. On the State House, within a State flag, on monuments, within battlefield parks. In short everywhere.
They have already opposed the erection of monuments honoring Confederate Veterans and the inclusion of General Lee on the Canal Walk in Richmond. If they succeed these attacks will only increase. Their aim seems to be to attack anything that faintly hints at Southern pride.
If we speak up for our heritage we are automatically labeled as racists and bigots. It appears that if one takes pride in ones Southern heritage then one must support racism, segregation, and the destruction of civilization as we know it. I for one am not now, nor have I ever been a member of the KKK or any other hate group. I do not now, nor have I ever supported their poisonous goals. I have lived my whole life in the South and know very few people who do support them. Most people look on them as fools. However, I am a proud SOUTHERNER. Always have been always will be. In these PC times this alone appears to make me evil.
I won’t even go into the causes for and results of the War for Southern Independence, it would take to long. Even if everything mainstream history tells us about the War is true (and I don NOT believe it is) the fact remains that our ancestors DID fight for what they thought was a just cause. They DID suffer horribly for their beliefs. And we as Southerners DO continue to suffer to this day. No other section of this country has been throught what the South has.
In order for the north to justify what it did and continues to do to the South it must continue to portray us as evil, ignorant heathens. No other culture or ethnic group in the world is so consistently portrayed in a negative light as we are. Since a few ignorant bigots put on sheets and spread terror we must all be that way. Right? This is the message our children recieve. Are all German people portrayed and Nazis? No. Are all Arabs portrayed as terrorists? No. Are all Irish portrayed as thugs who blow up children? No. Are all blacks portrayed as crackheads? No. Yet somehow in our own country anyone who takes pride in their Southern culture or heritage must be a racist bigot. They must be traitors. They must want to destroy the American way of life.
We are fighting to save our cultural identity here. Fighting to save our heritage. Does that heritage include things that we now consider wrong? Yes. What culture doesn’t. Virturally every culture, ethnic group or nationality has something in it’s past we would now consider either immoral or evil. The South is the only one who gets berated about it constantly.
Enough is enough. You don’t like our culture? Fine. Don’t like the way we do things? Fine. Don’t like the way we talk? Fine. Don’t come down here! And DON’T try to change us.
Right you are, LIB. OP was yours, analogy was not. Must be my day for missing the obvious, eh?
The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*
Just a few thoughts.
Regarding the removal of the Confederate Battle Flag from the SC State House. One reason so many Southerners oppose this is because this will only be the beginning. If the NAACP succeeds in getting it taken down their next target will be the GA State flag, then the MS state flag, then all other public displays of the flag. This is the avowed intention of the NAACP. They want to ban all public displays of the flag. On the State House, within a State flag, on monuments, within battlefield parks. In short everywhere.
They have already opposed the erection of monuments honoring Confederate Veterans and the inclusion of General Lee on the Canal Walk in Richmond. If they succeed these attacks will only increase. Their aim seems to be to attack anything that faintly hints at Southern pride.
If we speak up for our heritage we are automatically labeled as racists and bigots. It appears that if one takes pride in ones Southern heritage then one must support racism, segregation, and the destruction of civilization as we know it. I for one am not now, nor have I ever been a member of the KKK or any other hate group. I do not now, nor have I ever supported their poisonous goals. I have lived my whole life in the South and know very few people who do support them. Most people look on them as fools. However, I am a proud SOUTHERNER. Always have been always will be. In these PC times this alone appears to make me evil.
I won’t even go into the causes for and results of the War for Southern Independence, it would take to long. Even if everything mainstream history tells us about the War is true (and I don NOT believe it is) the fact remains that our ancestors DID fight for what they thought was a just cause. They DID suffer horribly for their beliefs. And we as Southerners DO continue to suffer to this day. No other section of this country has been throught what the South has.
In order for the north to justify what it did and continues to do to the South it must continue to portray us as evil, ignorant heathens. No other culture or ethnic group in the world is so consistently portrayed in a negative light as we are. Since a few ignorant bigots put on sheets and spread terror we must all be that way. Right? This is the message our children recieve. Are all German people portrayed and Nazis? No. Are all Arabs portrayed as terrorists? No. Are all Irish portrayed as thugs who blow up children? No. Are all blacks portrayed as crackheads? No. Yet somehow in our own country anyone who takes pride in their Southern culture or heritage must be a racist bigot. They must be traitors. They must want to destroy the American way of life.
We are fighting to save our cultural identity here. Fighting to save our heritage. Does that heritage include things that we now consider wrong? Yes. What culture doesn’t. Virturally every culture, ethnic group or nationality has something in it’s past we would now consider either immoral or evil. The South is the only one who gets berated about it constantly.
Enough is enough. You don’t like our culture? Fine. Don’t like the way we do things? Fine. Don’t like the way we talk? Fine. Don’t come down here! And DON’T try to change us.
Just a few thoughts.
Regarding the removal of the Confederate Battle Flag from the SC State House. One reason so many Southerners oppose this is because this will only be the beginning. If the NAACP succeeds in getting it taken down their next target will be the GA State flag, then the MS state flag, then all other public displays of the flag. This is the avowed intention of the NAACP. They want to ban all public displays of the flag. On the State House, within a State flag, on monuments, within battlefield parks. In short everywhere.
They have already opposed the erection of monuments honoring Confederate Veterans and the inclusion of General Lee on the Canal Walk in Richmond. If they succeed these attacks will only increase. Their aim seems to be to attack anything that faintly hints at Southern pride.
If we speak up for our heritage we are automatically labeled as racists and bigots. It appears that if one takes pride in ones Southern heritage then one must support racism, segregation, and the destruction of civilization as we know it. I for one am not now, nor have I ever been a member of the KKK or any other hate group. I do not now, nor have I ever supported their poisonous goals. I have lived my whole life in the South and know very few people who do support them. Most people look on them as fools. However, I am a proud SOUTHERNER. Always have been always will be. In these PC times this alone appears to make me evil.
I won’t even go into the causes for and results of the War for Southern Independence, it would take to long. Even if everything mainstream history tells us about the War is true (and I don NOT believe it is) the fact remains that our ancestors DID fight for what they thought was a just cause. They DID suffer horribly for their beliefs. And we as Southerners DO continue to suffer to this day. No other section of this country has been throught what the South has.
In order for the north to justify what it did and continues to do to the South it must continue to portray us as evil, ignorant heathens. No other culture or ethnic group in the world is so consistently portrayed in a negative light as we are. Since a few ignorant bigots put on sheets and spread terror we must all be that way. Right? This is the message our children recieve. Are all German people portrayed and Nazis? No. Are all Arabs portrayed as terrorists? No. Are all Irish portrayed as thugs who blow up children? No. Are all blacks portrayed as crackheads? No. Yet somehow in our own country anyone who takes pride in their Southern culture or heritage must be a racist bigot. They must be traitors. They must want to destroy the American way of life.
We are fighting to save our cultural identity here. Fighting to save our heritage. Does that heritage include things that we now consider wrong? Yes. What culture doesn’t. Virturally every culture, ethnic group or nationality has something in it’s past we would now consider either immoral or evil. The South is the only one who gets berated about it constantly.
Enough is enough. You don’t like our culture? Fine. Don’t like the way we do things? Fine. Don’t like the way we talk? Fine. Don’t come down here! And DON’T try to change us.
Just a few thoughts.
Regarding the removal of the Confederate Battle Flag from the SC State House. One reason so many Southerners oppose this is because this will only be the beginning. If the NAACP succeeds in getting it taken down their next target will be the GA State flag, then the MS state flag, then all other public displays of the flag. This is the avowed intention of the NAACP. They want to ban all public displays of the flag. On the State House, within a State flag, on monuments, within battlefield parks. In short everywhere.
They have already opposed the erection of monuments honoring Confederate Veterans and the inclusion of General Lee on the Canal Walk in Richmond. If they succeed these attacks will only increase. Their aim seems to be to attack anything that faintly hints at Southern pride.
If we speak up for our heritage we are automatically labeled as racists and bigots. It appears that if one takes pride in ones Southern heritage then one must support racism, segregation, and the destruction of civilization as we know it. I for one am not now, nor have I ever been a member of the KKK or any other hate group. I do not now, nor have I ever supported their poisonous goals. I have lived my whole life in the South and know very few people who do support them. Most people look on them as fools. However, I am a proud SOUTHERNER. Always have been always will be. In these PC times this alone appears to make me evil.
I won’t even go into the causes for and results of the War for Southern Independence, it would take to long. Even if everything mainstream history tells us about the War is true (and I don NOT believe it is) the fact remains that our ancestors DID fight for what they thought was a just cause. They DID suffer horribly for their beliefs. And we as Southerners DO continue to suffer to this day. No other section of this country has been throught what the South has.
In order for the north to justify what it did and continues to do to the South it must continue to portray us as evil, ignorant heathens. No other culture or ethnic group in the world is so consistently portrayed in a negative light as we are. Since a few ignorant bigots put on sheets and spread terror we must all be that way. Right? This is the message our children recieve. Are all German people portrayed and Nazis? No. Are all Arabs portrayed as terrorists? No. Are all Irish portrayed as thugs who blow up children? No. Are all blacks portrayed as crackheads? No. Yet somehow in our own country anyone who takes pride in their Southern culture or heritage must be a racist bigot. They must be traitors. They must want to destroy the American way of life.
We are fighting to save our cultural identity here. Fighting to save our heritage. Does that heritage include things that we now consider wrong? Yes. What culture doesn’t. Virturally every culture, ethnic group or nationality has something in it’s past we would now consider either immoral or evil. The South is the only one who gets berated about it constantly.
Enough is enough. You don’t like our culture? Fine. Don’t like the way we do things? Fine. Don’t like the way we talk? Fine. Don’t come down here! And DON’T try to change us.
Deo Vindice