Huh. Is Jesus God? What did He do when He encountered a sinner?
And on the other thing – some of us do believe the Bible and its message of grace to those who don’t deserve it, free for the asking, not the made-up rules some people have about whom God does or does not love. (Naming no names nor accusing anyone here… just an observation ;))
If I had real proof a deity exists, would I need to believe?
No. That’s what `proof’ means.
If I had proof that a deity that does not meet my own standards exists, would I worship?
No.
Would I worship any deity that I had proof for the existence of?
No. I would attempt to gain an understanding of it, possibly form a friendship with it if possible, but I would no more `worship’ it than I worship the Coal Sack Nebula or the beautiful complexity of pure mathematics. I think comprehension is a higher goal than devotion.
So, **Velma]/b] are you picking up on why this thread is in the pit? 
Tris
I think you are forgetting or ignoring the part about Jesus going to these people because they needed to be saved. He went to teach them the way. Not to tell them that everyone is ok, keep doing what you are doing, but to go forth and sin no more. Remember that, Guin?
But Poly, why should one have to ask?
I have had little, if any interaction with you on this board, and have nothing but respect for you. But as an atheist, I would wonder why a deity would require asking forgiveness to be accepted into the fold.
I understand the bit about original sin, and so forth, but having to ask for forgiveness for something I have never done seems a bit arrogant of the deity I am supposedly trying to worship.
And apologies for the following, but it seems to me that to get in the good graces of the “Christian” God, I must basically bend over and kiss ass or I am not worthy.
I guess I will never understand the “Either worship ME or you are doomed to a life in Hell.” Whats the point? I just don’t get that.
I don’t like the demanding tone that is apparent in “The Word”
What I REMEMBER is him saying, “Yes, you are a sinner, but I will always forgive you.”
And it is for GOD in heaven to judge, not YOU, Jersey.
All the best people are drunks, thieves, and adulterers? Odd, your way of looking at things.
Guinastasia and Polycarp: Since you’re talking about the same thing, I’ll try to address you both together.
You know as well as I do that forgiveness isn’t just thrown at you. You only get it if you want it - and sincerely. A contrite heart gets forgiveness. Poly asked “what did Jesus do when he encountered a sinner?” And we all know the answer is twofold: 1) he said (sometimes), “your sins are forgiven,” and 2) he said “Go and sin no more.” The two parts are integral to each other.
And guinastasia, when are you going to learn the difference between preaching the gospel and passing judgment? What jerseydiamond said is WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS. If you don’t like it, then your problem is with God, not with her. And while saying “You can’t judge! You’re not God!” might seem cute and win you some popularity points on SD, it’s not addressing the truth. If you don’t like what the bible says, then at least be honest and say you reject the bible. You can’t say you’re a catholic who believes the bible to be the word of God, but at the same time fight and argue against what it plainly says.
So God picked up his holy Bic and wrote the Bible out longhand? It’s not possible that the words in the text might be filtered through the personalities and mindset of the time it was written? Written by mortal and fallible individuals, to boot. Not to mention the many translations?
The Bible != God
Personal insults are always an excellent way to claim the moral high ground.
And the Constitution != the founders of the U.S. What’s your point? It’s still their words and the law of the land.
I don’t suppose you’d mind showing me where anybody ever said the Bible == God?
Well, let’s look at just one example.
A man (then a boy) loses his father to WWI in 1918. He helps his mother to raise his five siblings (two of whom die from childhood illnesses) and goes on to become a successful writer, poet, editor and member of the community. He holds a degree from Georgetown, holds the position of editor of Poetry for the Washington Post, helps to found a school and a church, gives substantial sums of money to both religious and non-religious charities (such as Amnesty International), and even in his retirement continues to work for his community. Oh, and he also goes to church every Sunday (the one he helped found).
Stellar man, yes?
Had to stop driving because he didn’t know when to stop drinking. Cheated on his fiancee (before she became his wife … this was back in the 30s) and generally refused to acknowledge the existence of either his illegitimate son’s mother or said son. Molested everything in sight and lied about it boldface when he could have started a rather useful healing process. That effectively makes him a child rapist, which some of you may find to be more morally repugnant than an adulterer or a thief.
Unless you knew him closely, he was one of the best people.
Then there’s the man who was separated from his family for the first six months of his life (in a hospital for reasons I’ve forgotten). He was a bit of a loner as a child, generally “buried his face in books”, incredibly bright; graduated either two or three years ahead of his class. Went on to a rather spectacular college career, did his PhD (or graduate; memory is fuzzy here) work on bounded harmonic functions at MIT.
Then, as Sean MaGuire is fond of saying, “He moved to Montana and he blew the competition away.”
Ted Kaczinsky.
Or we could talk about the story of this guy who ordered a half-dozen or so plagues to be brought down on Egypt, but I’m pretty sure you’re familiar with that particular character, even though it’s several thousand years old.
The gates of Heaven are not barred from sinners. They’re barred from those who don’t want to be there (that might be some Catholic doctrine slipping in there … if someone who knows more’n I do could let me know, I’d be all kinds of grateful:)).
And whose place is it, other than Christ’s, to say “Go and sin no more”?
Guin (and I, evidently), maybe you missed the part where Jersey Diamond has a patent on everything the Bible says. Coming next week: “Just what exactly is Paul saying about long hair and talking in Church?” Jersey Diamond explains!
Should I or someone else remind you of the oft-reviled person living in Kansas whose offspring you sound like right now?
Except that it is the truth.
We both (Guin and I) must have missed the part where you, Joe_Cool, had some sort of stranglehold on what a Catholic can or cannot do.
“What it plainly says” … haven’t we gone back and forth enough hundreds of times on the very fact that discerning the exact meaning of anything in the Bible is rather difficult? YOU may believe it says X. That in no way means that your interpretation is 100% correct.
You know, it’s been said before, and I don’t think they will agree now anymore than they ever have.
But it is still good that it is being said.
Thanks, that’s the only bit of glurge I’ve ever felt compelled to send on to my friends.
Bible - literally true, right? So, the story where God tells Adam and Eve directly NOT to eat the apple and they still do, that’s a TRUE story. A true story that illustrates that God’s will is not perfectly followed by weak and fallible human beings.
I can not reconcile this story with the idea that the numerous writers/translaters working on the Bible for years (although supposedly under God’s divine will) didn’t make mistakes or write their own interpretations of events.
I mean, if God could really make individuals do what he wanted (ie perfectly transcribe his Word despite personalities, time and translation) it would still be Adam and Eve kicking it in Paradise right now.
It’s called free will Glory.
And we cannot be perfect. Only God can. We can only try to do His will.
It wasn’t God’s plan to make us robots.
[nitpick] if you want to talk literal, it was fruit, not apple [/nitpick]
hey, everyone else does it, why not me… 
Glory, good luck getting anyone here (and I do mean anyone) to tell you to a degree with which you are satisfied why they take some Bible stories to be literal and why they take others to be parables. Some things you just take on faith, or you don’t.
However.
“Because I believe it” is basically the debatorial (is that a word?) equivalent, in my experience (here, at least), or saying “I (choose to) believe this in the absence, perhaps, of any concrete evidence; you are free to disagree.”
At least, for the more well-spoken among us. Then there are those who still have issues grasping the concept that theirs is possibly not the most true-to-God’s-word (if-you-believe-it-is-God’s-word [if-you-believe-in-God-at-all) understanding of the Bible. You will know them because they still struggle with the idea that someone else’s religious viewpoint can be every bit as valid as their own.
Nah, put me in a room full of hateful, judgemental assholes any day. 
Not really. Those who value friendship above judgementalism, loyalty above servitude, love above hate… apparently all of those people are going to wind up in hell.
I have a feeling that with company like that we won’t notice that we’re supposed to be sufferring.
Triskadecamus, If the point of your story was to preach to the choir that we should accept stealing, adultry, and drunkeness, and indeed we should suffer for those who perform those acts, well then it is apparent from the post to this thread that you succeeded. If you where trying to convert others to that line of thinking, you did not. It is a pretty goofy story.
I don’t see that this group of people should be included with the drunks and thieves, and as and atheist I feel somewhat offended that you grouped us together.
Iampunha wrote:
I don’t know if this will satisfy Glory, but I reject anything that contradicts the premise, “God is Love” — love being the conduit of goodness.