take your girlfriends and cram 'em!

The BBQ Pit
61

I think you just haven’t met the right girls yet, jarbaby. I’m a lot like you in that I’m very much a girl but I’m not “girly.” I’ve found a few girlfriends who are like me; my best girlfriend here at school is another loud obnoxious type. We talk about hair and clothes, and sports and philosophy and men and current events and everything else under the sun. We realized early on that we get along so well because we both have a way of relating that is more “male,” we love to fuck with each other and joke a lot, and many women don’t interact in that way–though many do, as evidenced by some of the women in this thread and on the boards. I go to a women’s college, and I was pleasantly surprised when I got here to find that instead of being a bastion of white gloves and proper manners, this place is chock-full of smart, strong, opinionated, uppity women.

Whoops, gotta run to class. More later…

62

Now taking applications for a foulmouthed, hard drinkin’, sex talkin’ girlfriend.
This thread reminded me of what is missing in my life. :slight_smile: I don’t have a drinking girlfriend. My current girlfriend is great for shopping and talks about literature and feminism and havin’ a great laugh with or talking about my future with or to go out dancing with. She’s excellent; definitely not trading her in. But I’d love to have a gal pal to throw shots back with, to talk sex with and to listen to pub bands with. Any takers?

In other news, should I ev-ah be in yer neck of the woods, JillGat and MandaJO, I would certainly buy each of you a drink. This is the second time in as many days that I’ve thanked posters for what they had to say…THANK YOU. I think your contributions to this thread stopped it from being a plethora of “me toos” complete with acceptable stereotypes about women.

Ooooh, preview…
Yeesh, Hama, I feel your pain. The above-mentioned girlfriend is moving in with me today (YAY!)…My lone friend right now is my SO and our friendship group is another couple we occassionally see anywhere from once a week to once a month. I’d answer your personal ad, particularly drawn in by mentions of haircoloring, tequila and Pi. I’ll buy you a shot, too. (Also adding Geobabe into that offer at the last minute, for her use of the word uppity! :D)

63

From my meager amount of personal observation (I’m 18 and a freshman in college), I’ve found that, here in my school, at least, it’s not the particular girls OR guys, but the combinations thereof.

If I talk to one of my girl friends or guy friends one-on-one, we usually end up discussing the texts we’re reading in class, or just goofing around, and we’re all equally incisive, bitchy, sarcastic, and funny as possible.

Even with small groups, say four of us girls together, or me hanging out with a couple of the guys, conversation proceeds as above.

Larger groups? Wrench in the machine.
Girl Group: giggle OHMYGODmy hair looks so terrible my hips are SOOO huge I know what you’re saying giggle

Me: So… who else is reading Kant right now? Would you believe that he said…

Girls: giggle Did you know Alex asked me out I don’t know what to wear this color is so AWFUL on me…

Me: sigh

—OR—
Me: Are any of YOU guys reading Kant right now?

My friend James: Oh, yeah, I found it really interesting that…

Guy Group: grunt snort Boobies are fun. grunt

James and Me: ergh.

—OR—
Me: So, how’s about them Packers, huh?

Mixed group: giggle grunt titter snort flirt

Me (to James): Did you catch The Simpsons last night?

The Entire U of Chicago Campus: Did someone say Simpsons?
Hmm… maybe The Simpsons are the secret to all human intersexual communication. Interesting.

64

Well, given I know nothing of theatre, you have the drop on me in a number of areas.

Oh dear, I get this a lot.

I know, I know. My own little intervention went astray.

Well, yes and no. It was a reference to a typical problem of human cognition, the way the brain organizes the world, or better its inputs. It uses stereotypes to simplify and classify – so that we can more easily deal with the flood of data we get. But this leads to a tendency towards assuming that any given category or group shares more characteristics than it actually may.

It was something of a throwaway observation.

Hmm, you’re saying that people try to stand out by rejecting the general view held by the group or the general view (phenomena etc.) ascribed to the group? The latter of course makes sense. I was commenting on the idea that a group as defined by some physical characteristic, for example, actually will share X culturally defined habits or the like.

In short, nothing against your observation, I was trying in my own particularlly leaden idiom to expand on it.

This of course sank like a bloody stone. But it just goes to show why Celestina will never find me displaying my GD behaviour in a bar… Well, maybe sometimes. After all I do bring the Economist to social gatherings. (Can’t fucking stand the expat community, what can I say)

She’s reacting to the stereotype, of course. I won’t hijack the thread with thoughts about how this is working etc.

65

I think what we can conclude from this discussion is that there are fluffy airheaded ultra-girly women, stoopid blockheaded ultra-macho men, and people of both sexes who fall everywhere in between on that spectrum.

And to all of you foul-mouthed, trash-talkin’, Brady Anderson-lovin’ (jarbaby: MWAH!) ladies out there, I don’t drink–I don’t have to get drunk to be completely insane, all the scarier–but if we’re ever in the same town, I’ll gladly go to a bar with you and watch you get drunk and talk shit with you all night!

66

To add another male voice:

I find that I get along well with both sexes, and like them both for different reasons. I can talk to my girl friends about hair (and philosophy) and to my guy freinds about sports (and philosophy). Not everybody is interested in every topic…you have to find common ground. I can find men to be just as ditzy as women. I do find myself more able to share intimacy, (non-sexual) with women, but it may be that I’m simply lacking in the close male-freind category.

I think Collunsbury has hit it on the head. We use steroypes as useful shortcuts to deal with the flood of information in our world. Unfortunately, this breaks down if we have bad streotypes. If we see every women as a ditz, or every African-American male as a potential threat, we are doing them and ourselves as disservice. I’ve found that most people have something interseting to say. ity may just not be about Tom Stoppard. :wink:

67

Just wanted to bump this interesting discussion so it wouldn’t be deleted.

68

I find overly “girly” or “guy” things both equally boring and insipid myself. Which is kind of a conversation stopper because most people’s conversations are based around the sex of the person they talk to.

Collunsbury I dissagree that its the way that our brains are actually organized. Its more like that there are such rigid roles in society and stepping outside of them is so taboo that people who don’t stereotype and don’t fit the stereotype are ignored.

Take for example the idea of there being only guys and girls is absolutely important to western society. Anyone who doesen’t fit is immediately classified as one or the other. There is no in between or society would have to change. Like today someone whom has an in between skin color is immediately classified as black. They can’t be neither black nor white because so much of society is built around discrimination that people do their best to classify everyone.

Society enforces discrimination, the brain doesen’t naturally encourage it.:slight_smile:

69

I don’t remember this thread from the first time around, so I thought I’d throw in my 2 cents worth now.

Over the past 6 years or so, I’ve had maybe 10 people I’d venture to call my best friends. Of those, 5 were girls, and 5 were guys. 6 years later, I’m still talking to al lof the guys, and 1 of the girls. The other 4? We got into petty fights, and never spoke again. In my experience, the girls I’ve known were more jealous minded and controlling, and didn’t take well to my interaction with the guys in their lives (2 of their boyfriends are included in my list of male best friends. They’ve since broken up, and I’m still tight with their boys.) I just relate better to guys…I do the makeup thing, and the gossiping on the phone, and the “girly girl” stuff, but at the same time, I’ve always been the girl that guys can go to when they get into a fight with their girlfriends. I offer just the right perspective. We flirt. We joke. We get drunk together. And somehow I have a feeling that 10 years from now, we’ll still be doing all the same things. Maybe it’s because they have nothing to be jealous of?

70

[[Maybe it’s because they have nothing to be jealous of?]]

Or you don’t?
You’re the common denominator here, girlfriend, and until your ex-friends weigh in, I don’t think it’s fair to assume all the blow-ups were instigated and perpetuated by them, IMHO. ps - All people are petty. It’s not gender specific. - Jill

71

I have about an even mix of bloke/girl friends. The blokes are usually the ones who I prefer to hang around with and laugh and joke. (There are a couple of exceptions though)

But I cannot talk to these guys about ANYTHING serious. I’m not too great at that kind of thing myself but I find it so much easier to talk to a girl about those kinda things. It’s strange and sad, I know.

Equally, I have no problem being on the other end of the conversation and listening to girls problems, but I can’t deal with blokes problems.

My girlfriend’s the exception. She’s a bit of a tomboy but I can talk to her about anything.

72

I have to heartily agree with everything that Manda Jo said way back when - you expressed my point of view much more eloquently than I could have, so thanks.

Anyhow, as a “girly girl” I have to weigh in here. I have been known to talk about hair/nails/makeup on occasion. However, I have done this with my friends of BOTH sexes. I have male friends that are just as interested in hair care tips and shopping as my female friends. I also own a lot of pairs of shoes, really enjoy shopping, and recently had to purge my closet of 7 bags of stuff, because I couldn’t get the door shut. Some of the posters in this thread would dismiss me outright on first meeting, because clearly, I’m vapid, shallow, and incapable of intelligent conversation.

These people would never find out that LOOOVE watching football (it has to be CFL though - my grey cup parties are infamous), can rebuild cars (soon I will start my Chevelle - with help), and can take a hit in the face as well or better than anyone, man or woman, and will come out of my corner swinging, so watch out. I like to drink beer, would much rather race a go-cart than drink wine spritzers, and have been know to belch. Loudly. I enjoy the theatre as much as I enjoy Ozzy.

So what am I trying to say? Like me, I think that all people function on a multitude of levels, and its their diversity that makes them interesting. Stating that Sex “A” is better than sex “B” is absurd. Rather than focusing on a broad category like sex, a focus on individuals is an idea.

Regardless of my girlyness, I’m still rather interesting to spend time with. My musclehead guy friends that are heavily into cars, can also talk “girl-stuff” (“G - how can I get this grease out from under my nails - I have a date tonight”), or books (what did you think of “Not Wanted on the Voyage” anyhow), etc. etc.

Diversity is a good thing - by dismissing people outright because of one facet of their personality/personhood you miss out on meeting some interesting people.

On behalf of girly-girls everywhere, thank you and goodnight.

Al.

73

Disagree as you like, although you frankly appear not to have grasped what I was saying, it is biological fact.

Societal roles, stereotyping behaviour do not arise out of nothing. They arise out of deep-seated cognitive structures which structure the way the brain processes the flood of data it typically receives.

This is not to say that any given set of social roles, stereotypes is either determined or necessary to our cognition (although may social roles clearly also have deep biological, which is to say genetic, roots which are in constant interplay with our social environment. Simplitic denial of such does us little good).

Not just western society, male/female dichotomy is the default for most cultures with some margins built in in many as a kind of exceptionalism. Recent Western rigidity is perhaps, perhaps somewhat novel but its pious nonesense to pretend that this is “social” alone. Clearly sex recognition is fundamental to a number of genetically determined behaviours (in a weak sense of determined, again I am not really a supporter of simplistic genetic determinism)

The particulars of either group definition of course are specific to a society but the operation is rooted in our biology. That does not, mind you make it impossible to either overcome or mitigate, but it is there by default.

Empty pious hogwash. This is the kind of statement which deserves to be labelled PC nonesense, and I believe regulars know how much I do detest the term.

Try to be less naive in the future.

74

If it was a biological fact then people would categorize in different ways. You seem to not understand this. As it is different societys classify in different ways. If it was biological then the classification would not change depending on the society? Certainly it is a biological fact that people learn to classify. It is also a fact that their society teaches them what to classify.

But where is the reason for having only male and female? You say sex recognition is fundamental, but it is not. It is dependent on the society.

To show a little of this in action my societal upbringing makes me believe people who can’t argue without attacking the other person are assholes. Someone from a different upbringing might not consider you an asshole.

75

[[Societal roles, stereotyping behaviour do not arise out of nothing. They arise out of deep-seated cognitive structures which structure the way the brain processes the flood of data it typically receives.]]

That (and the rest of it) being said, Coll, I still maintain that we are more unique as individuals than we are alike as gender-groups. - Jill

76

Your meaning escapes me here.

Clear structural commonalities in terms of cognition are readily evident.

Rubbish, that has nothing to do with it. You quite simply have failed to grasp what I have said.

The structure of stereotyping and the fact that all humans do it is determined by deep, biologically (which is to say genetic) determined structures. However, as in most such things, environment creates the specifics. Further, the human cognitive system is quite clearly pretty darn malleable. As such there is not a single reason to make the reductionist statement that “if” stereotyping arises from genetically determined cognitive structures that all societies would classify the same. No reason at all.

Ergo, you are arguing at best a red herring.

People classify, that is automatic. If you read and followed what I wrote with attention you would understand that I in no way contradicted or disagreed with the second part of the statement.

Reason? Reproduction. However, again there is a red herring here as I did not use the word “only” rather that the M-F dichotomy is our default biological condition, leaving aside a tiny percentage of genetic errors.

More pious crap.

Of course the detials are dependent on the particulars of a society, the urge towards sex recognition is however fundamental.

It’s the pit, your comments are ignorant and pious nonesense, I feel no compunction for kindness at the moment. Don’t like it then don’t make idiotic statements showing you have a poor grasp of what you’re talking about.

Jillgat:

I in no way disagree. I am simply correcting exagerated “everything is social” discourse. As you know, I am not in fact a genetic determinist and I do wish to make that clear.

In fact, I also should be clear that IMO while there might be some slight genetically founded gender differences in re cognitition everything I know about the subject suggests to me that they would be very slight indeed and overwhelmed by other factors.

My comments today are about cognitition as understand it in general, not sex specific, and I absolutely agree that inter-individual variation, in any case, is thousands of times more important than any supposed gender/group differences for almost everything discussed in this thread.

77

My best friends have always been men as well but I AM a tomboy (even when I look purdy and smell nice). :slight_smile:
I just had to share that when I was younger, my mother asked if I was a lesbian based on the fact that all my friends were male. It was the funniest thing I had ever heard (not to mention the most perplexing). Perhaps that’s the basis of my issues with most women I know… they talk and I wind up sitting there like Nipper the RCA dog; head cocked and thinking WTF is this person on? I do however need a pedicure in a bad way.

78

I’m really trying to understand what’s so threatening/non-appealing about talking to what we’re loosely terming “girly-girls”–this name just bugs me because it implies that women who are feminine are childish, immature, and not intelligent enough to merit knowing–in this thread.

I’m not sure I can make this make sense because it’s too goddamn early in the morning, but as another very feminine and certainly very silly but also very intelligent person, I like talking to women because examining their discourse (I mean the whole picture: body language, intonation patterns, the time of day, the particular topic) is fascinating. There’s so much going on underneath the surface of what’s being discussed. It’s a challenge because I’m much more invested in the conversation trying to figure out what’s really going on here.

I can’t remember if this has been said earlier in this thread, but women are generally socialized to be more indirect and polite in their conversation. This is not a bad thing or even a weird thing. Some cultures (e.g. Japanese) communicate by using indirection. But back to American women. When a woman is sitting with a bunch of her officemates, and they are all talking about getting their nails done, depending on the context, they may be politely referring to and/or trying to pass the hint to someone in the group that she should dress in a more professional manner, or they could be politely venting about all the stress they have in their lives and talking out ways to relieve it. Some people may view the talking indirectly about their co-worker’s slobby appearance as mean, and in some cases it probably is, but there are just interesting undertones going on in the conversation. If it’s mean, then the next thing I try to figure out is why? I realize I’m generalizing big time here, but I can’t think of a better example at the moment.

I’ve been in conversations that have jumped all over the place, from topic A to topic F to topic B to topic Z to topic A, and, yes, that can be confusing, but you just really have to pay attention to get it. A lot of times it’s not the topic, but the act of expressing it in a particular setting that is what counts. It’s just relaxing sitting and talking and sharing little bits of information, random thoughts on things, or whatever, and it’s meaningful because it’s two people sharing their experiences. For some people, they can figure out the solution to problems they’re having by talking to someone else about a topic that’s totally unrelated to their problem. It’s the act of talking about seemingly inane stuff (like hair and nails) that can lead us to the profound.

All of the things I’ve mentioned in this post could be just as easily attributed to men as to women. Now talking to men, actually it’s more challenging with them because they just confuse the hell out of me, but then I’m sure I confuse the hell out of them too so we’re even. :wink:

Y’all have fun figuring out this post, now. Y’hear? :smiley: I’m going to go get me some more coffee.

79

Just my experience:

I have one female best friend (unfortunately, in Tennessee), but have always had a preponderance of male friends over the female variety. Why? Ya got me. Just seems to work out that way for me.

80

I weighed in at the very beginning of this thread, but didn’t really say anything of value. I completely understand where jarbabyj was coming from with the initial OP, not so much because I prefer guys over girls for friendships (I do), but because I’m sick to death of everyone giving me crap for it.

My reason for preferring to hang out with guys is that I’m a very private person and I really have to trust someone to get close to them. With most of the women I’ve met, I’m uncomfortable with the level of intimacy that is usually immediately assumed. The women I do tend to gravitate toward are loud, funny, obnoxious, smart, but not very probing into my personal, deep, emotional feelings. I like to keep those things to myself and the very few people I’m especially close to. Guys tend to keep the level of friendship at the place I’m more comfortable with. That’s just me, my preference, and, really, I’m okay with this.

Which is what pisses me off…there are too many people in my life that get annoyed because of my preference for friendship. All my life, my mother has hounded and nagged me, called me weird, and felt sorry for me because I don’t have a lot of girlfriends. At this point in my life, I’m married and living in an area in which I didn’t grow up. I moved here with my husband. Most of our friends are couples we met together. I have some friends through work, mostly male. I have one friend who is a “girl friend.” Just yesterday, I mentioned to my mother that I was on my way to meet Liz (my girl friend) for a drink. She started the whole lecture about how glad she is that I finally (:rolleyes:) made a friend and how good it is for me to have another woman to talk to. What the fuck!? I get similar comments from other women I’ve been friends with, other family members, and occasionally, even my husband. Trust me people, I’m not some freak and you don’t have to feel sorry for me just because I’m not attending regular Longerberger basket parties.

That’s my take on the rant. I’ll let you all get back to the anthropological study of girls and guys :slight_smile: .