Teach your brats some manners, you pricks!

[WhyNot]

@fessie

Nanny? Mind if I ask a question, sort of topical?

My twins are pretty good about their tantrums, they just fuss briefly & I address the problem or distract them and it stops. We haven’t had a full-out “meltdown” yet ::fingers crossed:: (however, they’ll hit 18 months right at the time of the big family reunion in August, so I imagine we’re in for a spectacle right in front of our descended-from-the-Methodist-minister relatives).

However, my “No!” face must be lacking. I try eye contact, holding them right at my face, making different expressions, furrowing my brows, varying my tone. Nothing. My son in particular just laughs. Oooh, that makes me mad! Last night he was pulling my hair & wasn’t intimidated by my displays of anger. Any suggestions?

MLS is right. “Displays of anger” is the problem. Kids read body language with the fluency of a native - 'cause they are. It’s all they have to go on. He knows, as evidenced by his laughter, that you’re not really angry in any way that’s meaningful for him. “Meaningful for him” meaning that it will affect him in a way he doesn’t like.

You can’t fake angry with a kid. And, frankly, they don’t care if you’re frustrated. They’re not so big on empathy at 18 months. It’s all about them.

Hair pulling is a hard one (sez the gal who just cut 16 inches off her hair), but it can be stopped. Basically, he sees this as a really fun game. Your job is to make it terribly dull. When he pulls, try not to make a big reaction. A simple, “Ouch! That hurts. You are not allowed to hurt other people.” will do. Of course, he’ll pull it again. Put him out of reach of your hair, saying again, “You are not allowed to hurt me.” Put him on the ground, in a swing, in his high chair, wherever. Then “ignore” him. (Obviously, don’t really ignore him, just don’t engage him or make eye contact.) When he fusses, ask “Are you ready to have fun and not hurt me?” He’ll of course say yes, and then pull your hair as you take him out of the chair. Lather, rinse, repeat. “I don’t want to play with people who hurt me.” Extend the time in the chair just slightly (maybe an extra minute).

Have a favorite toy close at hand, because one of the times, he won’t pull your hair, and you want to reinforce that toot sweet by having a fun activity to share together. Once he’s caught up in that, say something like, “Oh, we have so much fun together when you remember not to hurt me!”

This is, of course, a modified “time-out”, which works well with kids from about 15 months on. I don’t think little littles should be put in a room alone. I think that’s simply too scary for them, and increases fear rather than teaching consequences. I’d start room alone time-outs closer to 3 or 4. (Unless, of course, you’re so upset that you might hurt them, in which case, shut them in a safe room until you calm down.) But they need to keep hearing why they’re in the doghouse and what they can do to get out. AT NO TIME SHOULD YOU EVER TELL HIM THAT HE’S BAD, NAUGHTY OR A PAIN IN THE ASS! Never give him reason to believe that you’re withholding affection in an effort to control him. Always react quickly and consistently to his action (hair pulling) so he learns that he can control the doghouse-being-in. (If Skinner could use operant conditioning to train pigeons to play ping-pong, we can train our little monkeys!)

Obviously, it might help to have a friend our spouse available to entertain the other little un while this is all going on. But the good news is I wouldn’t expect the main teaching piece to last more than half an hour, with perhaps an occasional quickie reminder once a day for a week.
**
Amazon Floozy Goddess** has a good tip for older kids, but I don’t think an 18 month old will make the connect between hair pulling and toys going away yet. But save that one for when he’s 3 or 4!

[Q.N.Jones]

@Guinastasia

At that point, your mother should have informed Fancy Lady that FL was lucky that Mom was not some pervert who might have kidnapped her child.

Mom said something snappish to her, along the lines of, “With that attitude, someday your kid is going to wander into big trouble–mark my words.”

[Q.N.Jones]

@Amazon Floozy Goddess

Well, I’m not experienced with kids, but I’ll tell you this…

Once, when I was little, I got mad at my mom because she said I couldn’t have something at the grocery store, so I hit her.

Well, she took all my favorite toys out of my room and kept them in a locked drawer for a month. To a kid that is devastating, let me tell ya. I never tried a stunt like that again.

Show your son he can’t do that to you by depriving him of posessions you know he loves. I bet he’ll sober up pretty quick.

Once, when I was very insubordinate about cleaning my room, Mom swept all my stuff from my room into some trash bags and put it in her closet for several weeks. This even included some of my clothing. She told me she’d thrown it all in the garbage, though. She only gave it back after she thought I’d been tortured enough.

It didn’t turn me into an angel, but I sure as hell picked up my room when she told me to after that.

[Cherry2000]

@DoctorJ

That’s really as far as I’d go with it, stressing that if this is not possible, parts of the history or physical may have to be scheduled for another visit. And that poorly-behaved children will be confiscated and sold to the circus. (OK, maybe not that last part. Maybe.)

Or, maybe you could just hold up a very large hypodermic and announce that you have just the thing to help the little dear settle down

[Guinastasia]

@Q.N. Jones

Mom said something snappish to her, along the lines of, “With that attitude, someday your kid is going to wander into big trouble–mark my words.”

Yep. But what makes me even angrier about this is that the kid will probably be the one to pay the consequences, not Mom.

[Q.N.Jones]

@Guinastasia

Yep. But what makes me even angrier about this is that the kid will probably be the one to pay the consequences, not Mom.

No doubt.

[calm_kiwi]

@WhyNot

MLS is right. “Displays of anger” is the problem. Kids read body language with the fluency of a native - 'cause they are. It’s all they have to go on. He knows, as evidenced by his laughter, that you’re not really angry in any way that’s meaningful for him. “Meaningful for him” meaning that it will affect him in a way he doesn’t like.

You can’t fake angry with a kid. And, frankly, they don’t care if you’re frustrated. They’re not so big on empathy at 18 months. It’s all about them.

Hair pulling is a hard one (sez the gal who just cut 16 inches off her hair), but it can be stopped. Basically, he sees this as a really fun game. Your job is to make it terribly dull. When he pulls, try not to make a big reaction. A simple, “Ouch! That hurts. You are not allowed to hurt other people.” will do. Of course, he’ll pull it again. Put him out of reach of your hair, saying again, “You are not allowed to hurt me.” Put him on the ground, in a swing, in his high chair, wherever. Then “ignore” him. (Obviously, don’t really ignore him, just don’t engage him or make eye contact.) When he fusses, ask “Are you ready to have fun and not hurt me?” He’ll of course say yes, and then pull your hair as you take him out of the chair. Lather, rinse, repeat. “I don’t want to play with people who hurt me.” Extend the time in the chair just slightly (maybe an extra minute).

Have a favorite toy close at hand, because one of the times, he won’t pull your hair, and you want to reinforce that toot sweet by having a fun activity to share together. Once he’s caught up in that, say something like, “Oh, we have so much fun together when you remember not to hurt me!”

This is, of course, a modified “time-out”, which works well with kids from about 15 months on. I don’t think little littles should be put in a room alone. I think that’s simply too scary for them, and increases fear rather than teaching consequences. I’d start room alone time-outs closer to 3 or 4. (Unless, of course, you’re so upset that you might hurt them, in which case, shut them in a safe room until you calm down.) But they need to keep hearing why they’re in the doghouse and what they can do to get out. AT NO TIME SHOULD YOU EVER TELL HIM THAT HE’S BAD, NAUGHTY OR A PAIN IN THE ASS! Never give him reason to believe that you’re withholding affection in an effort to control him. Always react quickly and consistently to his action (hair pulling) so he learns that he can control the doghouse-being-in. (If Skinner could use operant conditioning to train pigeons to play ping-pong, we can train our little monkeys!)

Obviously, it might help to have a friend our spouse available to entertain the other little un while this is all going on. But the good news is I wouldn’t expect the main teaching piece to last more than half an hour, with perhaps an occasional quickie reminder once a day for a week.
**
Amazon Floozy Goddess** has a good tip for older kids, but I don’t think an 18 month old will make the connect between hair pulling and toys going away yet. But save that one for when he’s 3 or 4!

WhyNot speaks a whole lot of truth!

The most important thing, at any age, is Pick Your Battles. Pulling hair is a damn good plae to start. WhyNot gives excelent advice. NEVER reward inappropriate behaviour in any way, that means attention too. Bad behaviour needs to be prioritised. Work on the worst first. By the time you have fixed the worst the niggly behavious may just vanish

There is only one imporatant thing to remember…CONSISTENCY. Remember that ant everything else will work. Every time you waiver they just learnt that hissy fits work.

[calm_kiwi]

I am ever so good at proof reading

[Conan_the_Librarian]

And here I came in here wondering about politeness at an Oktoberfest. Oh well.

I have to say, I remember a time when I was out scout camping and we were making personal deserts. At the time I was an opportunistic little fella, and I saw one that seems to have been “abandoned”. Well, far be it from me to let an abandoned pie go to waste, so I started pickin’ off the burnt crust parts gettin’ ready to enjoy it. Maybe a couple minutes later (time moves so slow when your a kid) the father came over and in a stern voice instructed me that it was his, and I shouldn’t mess with stuff I when I don’t have permission. Well, you can be sure that stopped me real quick, if nothing else fearing he would tell my dad, and a no dessert for me.

I agree that a many parents ready to speak out helps improve social skills (and just not being a brat). From my parents’ experience with me, it seems to help to be good friends with the parents of your child’s friends.

[eleanorigby]

Here’s one that does not involve the pre-literate.

I had a very stressed out day yesterday for reasons not pertinent here. Rushing around in 91 degree heat in a car that has broken A/C…anyway. We get to my daughter’s therapy session (she is depressed and has OCD) right on time. There is a teen in the waiting room-no one else. Therapist comes out and talks in low tones to teen. My daughter is ushered in, and I pick up my chick lit book to read for the hour. The office layout is important. There are 2-3 offices here, with an ante-chamber with desks and also a “waiting” room that serves as a group therapy room. There is a boom box of sorts in this waiting room–no receptionist, just a couch, a table, bar refridgerator and the boom box.

Teen starts cruising the boom box dial for stations to listen to. There is no checking with me to see if I want to have the station changed etc. It’t not too loud, so I decide that I am going to tolerant and open minded (usually, I am alone while I wait. I turn off the radio when I am–I see no need for background noise). She finds an oldie station and listens for one song. OK. She finds a jazz station and listens to the commercials. Whatever. She settles on a headbanger station and turns the damn thing up–but not so loud that I would have a legitimate complaint.

I put my book down, took my glasses off, looked at her and said, “Tell you what-I’ll go out to the desk and I’ll even close the door for you.” She gives me back what was once referred to as a sassy look–she is a shade away from an eye roll. At a complete stranger!

Yep-I’m gonna be a fussy old lady who bitches about kids today for sure…
Turns out this teen is the therapist’s niece.

[irishgirl]

I saw something the other day that reminded me of DoctorJ’s posts.

I’m doing my Ob/Gyn rotation, and being a female med sudent, get chaperoning duty…A LOT.

Anyway, I was in the Early Pregnancy Assessment Unit (for people with suspected miscarriage) chaperoning for one of the male doctors, as part of the assessment involves an internal ultrasound.

One of the patients brought her 3 year old with her. Even when the nurse offered to look after him at the desk, and even though this lady knew she might be receiving bad news, she INSISTED he come in with her because he got anxious with strangers.

I was left holding her hand with one of mine, with him on my lap during the examination. Sadly, she got bad news, and began crying (perfectly understandable). However, her son thought that the doctor had hurt his mummy and launched himself at the poor guy. In case you didn’t know, 3 year olds can inflict nasty bites, as that poor doctor knows only too well.

All round, not a good experience for anyone concerned.

So, while bringing your child into the examination room might be ok in some situations, in others, it’s really not a good idea.

[Guinastasia]

Damn, eleanorigby, I hope you informed the therapist how freaking unprofessional and how that teen could get her in trouble. If you have depressed people, people with anxiety coming in, that’s REALLY going to compromise care.

[Q.N.Jones]

@Guinastasia

Damn, eleanorigby, I hope you informed the therapist how freaking unprofessional and how that teen could get her in trouble. If you have depressed people, people with anxiety coming in, that’s REALLY going to compromise care.

I think it’s overreacting to suggest that the obnoxious teen is going to damage fragile patient psyches. It’s bad business, though, to keep an obnoxious teen around to annoy patients while they wait. That’s something I’d change doctors over, if it were a regular occurrence.

[Siege]

Actually, speaking as someone who’s been in therapy, I don’t think Guinastasia is overreacting. I can only talk about depression, but there have been times when it would have been very difficult for me to speak up about behaviour I found obnoxious or annoying because I wouldn’t have felt entitled to protest. With my history of being nastily bullied, I might even have felt threatened, especially if it seemed the teenager’s actions felt calculated to annoy. I’ve certainly been very afraid of confrontation when I’m in a more fragile state. A patient coming in for depression could even take it as an indication that she’s not welcome and leave before her appointment.

People being treated do have fragile psyches, at least in some cases. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t be in therapy and you’d be surprised at what can damage them.

CJ

[Q.N.Jones]

@Siege

People being treated do have fragile psyches, at least in some cases. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t be in therapy and you’d be surprised at what can damage them.

No, actually, I wouldn’t be surprised at all. I’ve been in the mental hospital three times in the last three years for bipolar disorder. Even when I was really depressed, really manic, or really anxious, an annoying kid with a boom box wouldn’t have come close to setting me off.

That said, I’m sure there is a very small minority of nutters* out there who would be traumatized enough for such an incident to “compromise their patient care.” I just think it’s overreacting for that scenario to be the first that jumps into one’s mind. Yes, it’s bad business and bad professionalism for her to park Bratty Niece in the waiting room, but it’s highly unlikely that the brat is going to spark a meltdown.

If we want to keep discussing this, someone should really start a separate thread so we don’t continue to hijack this one.

*I use this term affectionately, as I count myself among their ranks.

[Tim_T-Bonham.net]

@C3

Not only were they not able to touch anything, but it’s really hard to make that big of a ruckus with your hands in your pockets.

Presumably, these boys had not reached puberty yet.

[Anaamika]

@t-bonham@scc.net

Presumably, these boys had not reached puberty yet.

You *have * to have sons. Right?

[C3]

@t-bonham@scc.net

Presumably, these boys had not reached puberty yet.

No…this was when they were little boys. The youngest is 3 now, the oldest is turning 15…I hope the rules have changed for him!!

No, seriously, he’s a nice boy - an Eagle Scout! He doesn’t do that, does he? Does he!?