Teen Boot Camps...Anyone With Any Experiences?

Seems to me like Suze has pretty well cooked her own goose and now she’ll have to eat it. The choice really isn’t in your hands anymore, is it? (Maybe I’ve misread something here but that’s the gist I got.)

FWIW, cutting her loose sounds like a solid plan. No matter what’s happened in the past, she can behave when she chooses…but chooses to be a horror to her family. She’s right in that 14 is old enough to make some decisions of her own. Her decisions suck, though. Part of growing up is learning consequences of sucky decisions.

“You’re miserable and we’ve ruined her life? Okay. Then it makes sense for you to go live in a foster home. We’ll help you pack. You won’t be bothered any more by people you hate. Have a nice life.” Then let her go, really let go.

She may be testing limits, having hormonal surges, indulging in angst, wrestling with baroque Freudian issues…whatever. She ain’t gonna compromise or give in at this late date. She’s hellbent on acting like a technicolor bitch, which isn’t doing her or your family any good. It sure as hell isn’t a good model for your young sons, neve rmind the inescapable lesson that horrible, abusive behavior is a sure-fire way to get lots of parental attention. Right now Suze, the tortured teenage drama queen, really is the center of the family universe. Not healthy for anybody.

She’s a ward of the court. She has a foster home where she’ll behave. Let her go. In fact, calmly but firmly eject her the next time she calls her her mother or you a filthy name. Maybe even trying to behave decently to her family puts pressure on her. Maybe if she doesn’t have you to act out against she might straighten up enough to avoid boot camp. Maybe not. It really is her choice though.

Good luck to all of you.

I manage several child psychiatry treatment programs, from outpatient clinics to day treatment to inpatient, and I am very sorry for your plight. You and your wife cannot manage this endlessly without burnout, and as you say the toll on your marriage is growing along with your frustration.

You sound like “good enough” parents from your posts. The critical should walk a mile in your shoes or lead a day of your life. My heart goes out to you.

You have established through your efforts and your sacrifice that you are the ones most capable of deciding where Suzie should live; you have established reasonable custodial as well as moral authority. Since you are willing to pay the price for that, you are entitled to it.

My concerns about the situations you describe lie more around your younger sons and the exposure to behaviour, chaos, and disruption that is going on around them. They have not signed up for any of this; they have no say or control around it, and as you have noted yourself briefly, there are consequences already in play for at least the eldest of them.

Part of being a good parent is advocating strongly for the weakest members of the family. It’s a gigantic pain in the ass, advocacy, but you’ve done a fair bit of advocating for Suzie by now so I know you know what I mean. I honestly think you need to think about advocating for the protection of your sons.

This means that in every meeting you have with every caregiver, in every discussion you have with Suzie and/or your family, you make note of the impact on the smaller children. You be specific about your concerns, and even more specific about your projections for the future should the situation not change radically. And you see how that plays out. It may in fact mean that Suzie needs to spend more time in foster care, or some other type of care. I know that the younger children are not in immediate danger, but Suzies are like arsenic to smaller sibs – she is a slower poison, but nonetheless potent. I also know that you already carry around a considerable burden of guilt and shame despite the truth that this is her behaviour and not yours, and I honestly don’t wish to add to it – see my first three paragraphs for reinforcement. But I do think that the perspective here needs to shift a bit – some of the forest is going missing for the trees.

With all sincerity, I wish you the best in your ordeal. Simple maturation will help a fair bit in a girl like Suzie, as will the school of hard knocks. I wish her the best, too, hosebeast that she is today.

That’s a common idea, but I don’t agree with it.*

*Small *kids crave rules and order and structure. That’s because they know they’re literally weaker than the world, and if Mom and Dad aren’t stronger than they are, how will they be stronger than The Bad Guys? If they can’t keep the kid safe from himself, how will they keep the kid safe from The Boogeyman, Germs and Stranger Danger? They’re also ignorant about the world, and rules function as the world’s instruction manual, which is inherintly comforting to a small child.

14 is a different story. 14 year olds crave and need independence and adult status and don’t think they need a rulebook anymore. They also *require *rules and order and structure to catch them when they fall, but they don’t WANT them. Needing them, feeling them, means that they’ve failed in being Grown-ups (as, of course, they will, time and time again.)

*That is, I don’t agree with it right now, this minute. I’m known to be capricious about such things, however, and it wouldn’t surprise me if at some time I agree(d) with it. :wink:

That’s precisely the point. She is not mature enough to understand that she controls her own actions and her own future. So your job, as a parent, is to set her up in situations where she makes her own good choices in spite of herself. No matter how much you would like it, you cannot control her. You might be able to for another year or two, but, ultimately, everything she does is her choice. She could choose to continue to act out, or choose to follow the rules and live a peaceful, successful, and happy life. You continue to force her to submit and some teenagers will explode in exactly the wrong direction.

In this situation, for whatever reason that you are not able to perceive, she is not able to function normally in your household. She is not able to make good decisions for herself in this environment. You have said repeatedly that she is able to make good choices for herself in a different environment.

Look at it from this direction:
Situation A: You keep her where she is and her levels of anger and frustration continue to mount. You keep battling with her because you are not able to communicate with her, or her with you. Her violence escalates, her peer group gets worse and worse. You send her to boot camp which makes her feel like a prisoner and removes all control she has over her life and her situation. It could either go well, or could backfire and make her seriously hate you for the rest of her life. After five years with this serious trauma having occurred it’s a tossup where she might be.

Situation B: You put her back in foster care, as she is at risk in her current situation. She acts sweet as pie, toes the line, does what she needs to do, goes to school, and lives through the next couple years of teenagerhood in a relatively peaceful situation. After a few years of adolescence and development, she might have a better grasp on her relationship with you and her self-destructive behavior patterns as a teenager.

I don’t think are understanding that right now she does not think as you do. I mean, literally does not mentally function in the same way. She is not capable–not because she’s not smart enough, but because teenagers are incapable of thinking abstractly or seeing long-term future consequences as necessarily relevant to their current actions. They are still going through a tremendous mental growth and developing adult-type thinking patterns that allow them to develop the ability to think abstractly, think about long-term future consequences, set long-term goals and strategies for success, and comparing themselves with their peer group in those terms.

Yes, it’s all very logical and straightforward from your point of view, she’s only holding herself back–but she can’t see that, no matter what you do or say, and forcing her is not going to make her understand, it’s only going to make her resent you.

Look, when I was a teenager, I made some very poor choices. I was going through some serious trauma that my parents did not know about. I could have fixed the whole thing by going to them and telling them what had happened, what I was upset about, and asking for the help I needed. My parents are wonderful, loving, supportive, compassionate people and they asked, they did, but I just wasn’t able to open up to them. It just was not something I was capable of doing at fourteen.

All the acting out, all the bad behavior, all of that was a collection of symptoms that reflected how I was feeling, and was no reflection whatsoever on my parents’ actions or lack thereof. They tried clamping down on me and forcing good behavior (which, in my case, extended to my appearance) which had the net negative result of the following reaction, illogical as it may be: “great, X is happening, and all they care about is that I wear too much black. They don’t like that? Let’s see what they think about piercings and tattoos.”

Like it or not, perception is reality, for all of us. What you perceive about her behavior, and what she perceives about it may be two very different things. Like it or not, you do not understand why she is acting this way, but you can still take steps to move the situation to a point of reasonable stability while you try to figure it out.

To put it another way, if I am working with an animal and it starts to act in a way that I don’t like, I have two choices. I can force it to do what I want, or I can stop my own actions, and try to figure out what is causing the behavioral change in the animal. Maybe it doesn’t like the physical environment. Maybe I brought the animal into a room that makes it feel insecure and defensive. I could continue to work with the animal in that room, and punish it when it shows its teeth and doesn’t pay attention because it’s too busy watching out for some perceived danger. Or, I could take it outside and work with it there where it feels comfortable and safe and relaxed.

I’ll bet you can guess how much better we can communicate when both of us feel safe and secure, and how much more we’ll both have learned. You don’t know why she’s acting out, but she is. It’s not that she’s a bad kid, you know that. You also know that there’s something about your environment that causes her to act out–it’s not the rules and structure, because she follows the same rules and structure somewhere else. So what else could it be?

I’m guilty of skimming here, but I just wanted to say that Gorgonzola’s post really resonated with me.

I remember being trouble at 14. And 16.
Shoot, my lovely Catholic intact-family college-professor neighbor’s kids have hit that age, and all of a sudden they don’t wave and smile anymore.
It’s tough.

It may not be much comfort, but when my friends and I got to college, most of the good kids, the ones whose parents were proud? They started doing major drugs. And/or sleeping around (before AIDS was common). Just about EVERYBODY got into trouble, more or less.

You’re dealing with a houseful of trouble now, but anyone who’s looking down their noses at you is full of beans.

Hmm. I definitely liked structure when I was that age, but I think I was an insecure kid…still kind of am.

Emphatic agreement. I know the Dope rather well and if you hadn’t tried hard to keep Suze with your family you would have gotten slammed for that too. “No wonder the poor girl acts out. You don’t really want her and she knows it!
Think how she feels, poor child, so rejected and abandoned” blah, blah, blah.

Nothing gets quite so judgmental and subtly vicious as parenting issues. Well, maybe indoor vs. outdoor cats.

No kidding. I’ve got friends with kids of all ages, and it looks, from an outsider, like no one escapes trouble entirely, even with the best-grounded kids.
A world of sympathy and compassion from this direction, FGiE. I don’t think any of us are “slamming” you, and I absolutely don’t think anyone has gotten “judgmental and subtly vicious”. I don’t decry either your attempts or your desire to reunite your family even the tiniest fraction. I’m only trying to offer the perspective that sometimes the best solution is to take immediate steps to ensure peace and safety for everyone–Suzie, FG and partner, and the two young boys–and then try to get to the root of the problem. I just don’t think going to battle over the symptoms is necessarily the best way to start in fixing the real issues, especially not when there are peaceful alternatives to active combat.

I suspect a lot of this comes because I don’t think she even views you as parents. Especially not you, FoieGrasIsEvil. In fact, she probably views you as more “prison guard” and her mother as “warden”. I’m not exactlyblaming either of you, but let’s face it: neither of you has been terribly parental. You aren’t even related and don’t seem very emotionally involved (and there’s no reason you would be), and Mom had very little to do with her. I don’t think she really wants to live with you, or have anything to do with you, and probably would rather be at the Boot Camp.

Leave her in the setting where she is behaving the best.

Stay in touch with her by letter on a weekly basis, let her know you care about her, love her, are proud she is doing well, share family news with her. Let her get some maturing done in a positive way. Let her get the help she needs to deal with her issues.

Send her a letter every week, and don’t expect to hear back from her. Send her fun “care packages”. All this to remind her that you haven’t forgotten about her, given up on her, that you are not “glad she’s gone”(even if you are).

Maybe she will be able to interact with you and her mom in a more positive, mature way when she is older. Maybe not. Maybe never. You may have to realize that you have a “toxic” effect on her (through no fault of your own), and you will always “bring out the worst in her”.

I don’t think there’s much use speculating on how Suzie came to be how she is, what actions produced what, how she interpreted it all. Processing all that is Suzie’s problem at this point in her development.

Often in troubled families there is a chicken-and-egg effect – i.e. it can be hard to tell how much of the weirdness you see now is the weirdness that created the acting out kid, and how much of it is the family’s threadbare attempts to cope with a habitually acting out kid. It is easy (even facile) to interpret Suzie’s current behaviour as stemming from early trauma and neglect, but there are literally millions of children with similar or worse early narratives who have subsequent lives of resilience and compassion. That’s the interesting thing about humans – they are not just iteratively programmed to if this, then that.

You (and Suzie) may never know why she is the way she is. I think that’s just fine. What is far more urgent for the OP is getting some sleep, creating some pleasant memories for the younger children, and keeping marriage and family together somehow.

She may never call me Dad or feel that I am, that’s OK. What I crave isn’t her acknowledgement that I am her Dad, but that I am a person whom is the head of the household and if she chooses to participate in this family, then she’s held to the same standards everyone else is.
She really loves her Mom, Mom has been there for her undyingly for many years, and Suzie knows that. They have fun together, they do things, Suzie occaisonally helps out and is caring towards Mom and her brothers. It’s the violence of the outbursts that occur when she’s denied something she wants that she either hasn’t earned or simply shouldn’t have at her age that are at the core of the behavior issue.
And there’s no way Suzie would rather be at a boot camp. She’s a girly girl in many respects, and if she thinks it’s bad here with our normal, mundane rules she can’t follow, then she’s in for a pretty rude awakening with the alternative.

I want to thank you for your couple posts, they are quite insightful, and I agree with you.
It really doesn’t matter why or how we got here anymore, what matters is how we go from here.
And I also agree with your comment regarding the importance placed on her infant trauma. She only remembers it happened because she was told it happened, and vaugely recalls a time when Mom wasn’t around as much as she is now. It’s been almost a decade since I’ve been around, and Mom’s been quite active inher life since she was three.
Her life and behavior are not determined by what happened to her thirteen years ago. It’s been a combination of factors since then that have led to this, and as I have pointed out ad nauseum, she is well aware of the difference between right and wrong when making her choices. If she chooses badly, then she should have to live with the consequences. The fact that Mamaw and my wife never made her do that when she was younger is what has led up to this, IMO.

All we can do now is continue to love and support her and hope she doesn’t throw her life away.

Has she been assessed by a decent psychologist? I’m wary of internet diagnoses for mental illness, and I’m certainly not competent to give them, but especially given her background of abuse, it does seem like her destructive behaviours - particularly the self-harm and violent abuse of others - go way beyond normal teen wilfulness and may be indicative of Borderline Personality Disorder: it may be worthwhile having her assessed by a specialist in the field before taking any “tough love” steps which could exacerbate the problem.

Disclaimer: I work in mental health. I have both some training and personal experience in dealing with colleagues and clients who exhibit symptoms of BPD. I am not however a clinician. Nor am I remotely qualified to give diagnoses.

She has and he found her to be pretty much normal with some kind of a mild anger-associated condition, the name of which escapes me now.

He seemed to think that under it all, she’s well-crafted at being a manipulator. He’s right in that regard.

It seems like the biggest problem you face isn’t really your step-daughter, it’s your wife. It sounds like she hasn’t been on board. All the experts say a United Front is essential.

That’s not to say it’s easy - we struggle with that at our house, too.

Regarding ScissorJack’s post, Borderline Personality Disorder is generally not seen as a diagnosis under the age of 18 for a couple of reasons. One is that the DSM-IV directs: “To diagnose a personality disorder in an individual under 18 years, the features must have been present for at least 1 year.” In someone who has lived barely beyond a dozen years, this can be difficult to establish. The second reason is the extreme stigma associated with BPD and the reluctance to use a label that will cause mental health care providers to actively turn down service, even in public-access settings, in someone so young. These are generally both good things – adhering to standards and being cautious in diagnosis – but they do have consequences.

One consequence is that the parents of “baby borderlines” often find themselves without advice that would be useful to them, either because of the reluctance to diagnose, or the inexperience (usually through active avoidance) on the part of the treatment practitioner for management of these symptoms.

This will allow the OP to preview the book I currently recommend for families of people who have a lot of emotional dysregulation and externalizing behaviours (as you describe in your Suzie). If it looks at all useful, just get it for the information and never mind about the label.

Like it or not, she is controlling the entire house and ruining the other children’s lives and your marriage.

Let her go to foster care.

Any update on how things turned out for this girl?

This thread was bumped by a spammer. I’ve deleted the post but I’ll leave it open.